Icemist

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a dog transport company that can give advice about the what is needed to be done, and organize the transportation of a adult Samoyed male from Sydney to San Francisco, USA.

Rob

They live in Belconnen, but I know they will travel to the Southside if needed.

Hi,

A friend is having some health problems at the moment and is looking for a Professional Groomer that is able to groom and wash their Samoyed on a regular basis.

The Groomer will need to be in the Canberra Region.

If anyone knows of any, could you please let me know.

Thanks

A friend of mine is looking to Hip Score their dog in the next month and is looking for a vet who is able to take the X-rays for the hip scores.

Does anyone have any recommendations for vets in Canberra that can take these, preferably Woden area, but any area may do.

Rob

Yes dog grounds much closer to creek, and the creek was really raging .... some great shots on fb...

We also had a cabin booked in the caravan park there.... not sure that's happening either ;)

I think issues with flood debris and the bogging potential will make it difficult to have the rings in any kind of fit state.. but await news from the Show Secretary.

Yeah, its a bummer to lose entry money but I'd rather be out of pocket than see the Show's books in the red and potentially more dog sections cancelled.

I spoke to the show secretary this morning. At this stage the show will be going ahead.

Good Morning,

If I may I'll hijack/bring some life the thread for a moment. (Most of the action seems to be going on in the Japensese Spitz / Sammy thread)

For many years now I have wanted a dog of my own. Though living at home, going through school, work and other commitments I didn't have time or money to look after puppy.

However, now that I am Older and Wiser, Richer (I wish) ;) and recently moved out of home, I've got into the swing of things after the move and now have the opportunity and am ready to bring a puppy into my life.

Over the last few months I've been slowing going through the forums reading up on Samoyeds as much as possible and have my mind set on one.

Regrettably, I didn't sign up to the forums earlier in search for a pup, as I wasn't planning on moving out as early as I have, plus I didn't think it would be this hard to find.

Obviously there are a several breeders apart of this forum and ideally I would purchase a puppy from one that is engaged with the Samoyed community, ofoucrse a registered Ethical breeder. Given the benifit of all the hard work, love and care put in to produce puppies that are healthy and have the best chance of a long lived, happy life.

I've emailed Icemist as I'm aware he is within the region of Canberra, however what has been only a few days seems like a lifetime waiting for a reply.

I'm looking for a male puppy, willing to travel to pick him up, is it a good idea to ship them like a parcel? I'm not exactly sure how that system works :S

The only listing I've found (apart from dogzonline) is http://www.allclassifieds.com.au/ac/display-ad?cid=123247585, has anyone heard of the breeders before?

I would love to hear from anyone that could help me get in contact with breeders with puppies that are ready for a new home or will be ready soon (though I'm not sure how realistic my expectations are.)

Thanks, Jonny

P.S I'll be watching my email like a Hawk =P

Hi Jonny T,

I will be emailing you back tonight, I've just been extremely busy at the moment.

There is currently a litter on the ground right now, but am unsure if she has any puppies available.

I also know of 2 litters that are due this weekend.

Both are from excellent, highly recommended, and long time breders of Samoyeds.

There are also couple of others coming up that I could let you know about as well, depending on how quick you want a puppy.

I will forward you the information tonight.

Rob

Hi,

What wattage of globe would you use?

Icemist Samoyeds - confirmed - due date 8 October.

Sire: Sonata Arctica Yngvie Dexterson (Imp Poland).

Dam: Aust Ch Icemist Star Attraction.

So I am planning our first litter for later on in the year and we have been getting puppy enquireies for quite awhile now.

I recently got a puppy enquiry that I am not 100% sure about, I don't know if I'm being a little too judgemental or suspecious.

This person is after a male puppy from me and they already have their name down for a female from another breeder which is currently about 3 weeks old. Now this person says they are willing to desex the pup but I wonder. I am also worried about two young dogs around the same age in a house of four children. The dogs apparently have to toilet inside as well.

Would you be comfortable selling one of your pups to live in this situation?

This same person contacted me via email, I asked for her phone number to give her a call about a puppy, I also asked who she was getting the bitch from, she refused to give me details of either!

Very strange indeed. Why wouldn't she give me her phone number.....because I will not guarantee her a puppy!

But lady I want to talk to you about a possible puppy.

Guarantee me a puppy and we will talk!

Bye Bye, try someone else lady!

Does anyone know if there is a dog section at Blayney Show this year? I couldn't find it listed in the Dogs NSW gazette.

Thanks

No, I have been told by the organisers’ that it has been canned for 2011.

Icemist - litter due 30 August

I am currently thinking about a dual sired litter, I understand about getting pups from both sires to broaden my lines, and one dogs semen might be more fertile than the other, and of course the timing, but with a dual sired litter, do you generally get the same amount of pups as you would from a single sired litter, less pups, or more?

When is it best to mate them, one dog one day, the second dog the next, or both on the same day?

Can anyone share there experirnces with this?

I got the analysis from Coles collection from Frozen Puppies today and while I know what a lot of it means some thing I have no idea if they are good or bad.

What are the figures for good semen count, a good normal morpholgy rate and a good thaw mobilty %? I wil ring them to clarify tomorrow.

ETA I probably should have been a bit more specific. It has things like Mobility Status(0 -1-2-3-4-5) 5 but no explanation. I am assuming 5 is good as his collection mobility was 90%. But is a post thaw mobility of 60% good or bad?

Hi,

Anything around 60% is excellent. You won't find many semen post thaw past a mobility of 60%.

That's funny you would say that, as nothing I've EVER done has had a motility post thaw of less than 85%. To have 60% in my opinion and experience, isn't super great.

I would strongly suggest that when you use this semen, you enquire about adding a booster (most frozen places will know what to use as often it varies depending on the method used to freeze) to go from a 90% motility to 60% is a huge drop and adding a bit of 'turbo' to the mix prior to insemination, could help kick start the sperm into a better 'mood'!

When I spoke to Frozen Puppies, who froze the semen off of my dogs, once thawed anything over 60% mobility was good. They also informed me that many many dogs do surpass the 60%. Just what I was told from Frozen Puppies!

I got the analysis from Coles collection from Frozen Puppies today and while I know what a lot of it means some thing I have no idea if they are good or bad.

What are the figures for good semen count, a good normal morpholgy rate and a good thaw mobilty %? I wil ring them to clarify tomorrow.

ETA I probably should have been a bit more specific. It has things like Mobility Status(0 -1-2-3-4-5) 5 but no explanation. I am assuming 5 is good as his collection mobility was 90%. But is a post thaw mobility of 60% good or bad?

Hi,

Anything around 60% is excellent. You won't find many semen post thaw past a mobility of 60%.

I have tried to google this, but google isnt my friend today

I was talking to the Frozen Puppies people about lots of stuff, and mentioned doing an U/S on my bitch, (which is booked in for next Monday ), a few weeks ago and they suggested having a prog test done at the same time, (providing she is in whelp, of course)... Apparently, according to this guy, bitches prog level at this stage should be at the level of ? to maintain the pregnancy. He said that bitches that reabsorb their pups, is often done because of the prog level dropping to a level where pregnancy isnt viable anymore. This was said during a long conversation, and until last week I had forgotten about it. I didnt ask any other details, at the time, and Im hoping someone can give me an idea on what 'magic number' I am wanting her to be, to maintain pregnancy ???

Hi,

I have just gone through this procedure with Frozen Semen with one of my bitches. I nearly lost the complete litter, and would have lost the last remaining pup if I did not have done the prog tests.

The prog level of a pregnant bitch should stay around the level of 60 until they are ready to give birth. If it drops by half to around 30, your puppies are in trouble and there will be a strong chance at the puppies being absorbed.

My bitch dropped to 20 and the vets were suprised the puppy was still alive, but we managed to keep the last remaining puppy inside her going until birth. She had to be put on micronized progestrone tablets (Which cost a fortune as they have to be made up by a chemist), and prog tested every 3 days as the dose of micro-prog needed to change with the prog results. Very expensive time.

I have spoken to others and this seems to happen regualary with Frozen Semen inplants. Why? I am unsure.

My puppy is now 6 weeks old, and is an absolute blessing.

Yes, This was a very stressful time, for me and the bitch.

But after going through this, my recommendation is once you have confirmed the pregnancy, get the prog test done, get it done regulary if you have fears.

As with me, It could be the difference between get something puppies or getting nothing.

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone out there knows or could recommend any transport comany that can handle the transportation and paperwork of frozen semen to be sent to Germany.

I don't think it was well said at all... I am so frightened that you are happily announcing that a Samoyed can have 100% recall.

NO dog has 100% recall. YES Samoyeds are smart and have titles over many fields including obedience, herding, agility and tracking but as a general day to day living it is so foolish to announce on an open forum for those wanting information on the breed to suggest that they have 100% recall.

Please read my post http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...188435&hl=# where I nearly lost Fletcher who I thought had spot-on recall, yes i thought he had 100% recall and luckily i didn't have to learn the hard way. I had a very, very close call and one close enough for me to try to educate those I come across that think that any dog has it.

I also work at a busy vet clinic and see it every week. Well trained dogs, obdience titled dogs, stupid, naive owners who think their dog has 100% recall. Dogs being brought in screaming, bleeding, eyes out of their heads, necks snapped, bleeding internally, massive hernias, crushed half way down their bodies down. The owners SO regretful, SO painful, knowing full well that they were COMPLETELY TO BLAME. Your dogs life is in your hands.

I am not at all suggesting a Samoyed can't be trained for obedience/agility/tracking etc titles- Fletcher excels at obedience and will be trialling for CD title in the somewhat near future. He is brilliant in training, he knows exactly what I want of him - he has his days, and is sometimes stubborn, a characteristic of this breed which would be stupid to deny to possible future owners of the breed!! (do we want people handing dogs back to breeders or sending them off to pounds because the dog wasn't always 100% obedient and they were told it would be?) It is part of what makes this breed so interesting and such an exciting challenge.

BUT when it comes to a rabbit, or a cat across the road, instincts kick it. This breed was used for herding and was used for hunting and you know this breed is a natural breed, practically untouched and those original instincts will show up from time to time.

If you don't believe that, then perhaps you may not have experienced this kind of situation because of the fact that you are very experienced in dog training yourself, and had the mentor of your experienced father to guide you... but do you tell your average puppy buyers that Samoyeds have 100% recall? If so, you are a fool and you are taking a ridiculously huge risk for the future of the puppies you have bred. Be thankful nothing serious has happened yet but open your eyes and look at what you're actually saying to people.

Please read my post mentioned above and maybe you'll understand. This is how i finished my post that day, I wrote this just after the event:

My dog lived today. My dog lived to remind me who i am, his carer, his everything. It is my responsibility to make sure he is safe. I failed today and i came way too close to losing my best friend. I'm still shaking, and i'm finally having the chance to let it go and cry. Please, don't ever think you have 100% recall, learn from my mistake before it's too late. After tonight.. i will not believe that it is possible. In the end, he's a dog.. and why wouldn't he want to chase a rabbit?

Be frightened, be very frightened.

My Mishka has NEVER EVER broken from a command from a recall. She is that well trained, whether rabbits, cats or what ever is there, she will come 100% of the time, yes 100% of the time. She will even drop on a dime with one command.

That’s 100%. You can QUOTE me on that, both you a Kellie!

Her daughter does the same. NEVER broken a recall, out or inside a ring. She’s 100%.

I have never ever had a dog that has broken a recall command.

I trust all my dogs 100%, on or off lead. AND PROUD OF IT

So yes, I happily announce that you with your expert knowledge on the matter with your one dog that you can't train a dog properly.

You train a dog properly right from the start, you will not have a problem. But since you have been around all for 2 minutes, and are a fountain of knowledge and you have been around forever and know exactly what you are talking about!

I really do applaud you.

Samoyeds are VERY intellegent and it is important to remember they can be subborn and have a mind of their own. It is important to train them from a young age, but it is also important to never trust them 100% in the early years, regardless if they have titles or training.

Hopefully Bindi will share her experience on this forum.

In saying this I took my girl "shimmer" to the dog beach and she wouldn't run more than 10 metres before turning back to me, but I certainly wouldn't let her off leash when an area is not fenced and she is 2years old. The reason being is if something catches a Samoyeds attention, that becomes their focus and they "cant hear you calling them back".

Yes Sammie’s are intelligent, sometimes too intelligent.

Yes, I will bite at this one, because our Sammie’s must be abnormal as we don’t seem to fit the 100% rate.

I find it very unfortunate that you feel this way about your dogs and Samoyeds in general, not being able to trust your dogs off lead, even in the early years, especially if they have obedience titles and they still won't come back to.

I have been involved in training Samoyeds since 1985, I am a qualified All Breeds Obedience Instructor (as with my father) and have never to this current date have had any problems with any of my Sammie’s not coming back on command (or within 2 commands), even puppies at an early untrained age will come back if the right technique is used.

Nor has my father had any problems who has trained Samoyeds since 1975 have never had problems, whether in a trial ring, out at parks, beaches or out amongst livestock.

There are many techniques to train a Samoyed, and not all obedience clubs teach good techniques, and training will vary from dog to dog.

Samoyeds can work just as good as or even better than any other breed if given the chance. Results have shown this time and time again in obedience, Agility, in the herding ring, and Endurance testing, in both Australia and the USA (where Sammies are used for more than just show).

The problem with some training clubs is that they change techniques with what fads are around at the time, and they push that technique, even though it may be correct or not correct.

This reflects on many dogs of any breed.

I’ve seen techniques come and go, most are extremely poor.

The basic’s of obedience is they key to the recall and any obedience related activity. The basics are a must. Neither new beginner, nor dog will pick up the basics properly in eight weeks of basic training, stage 1, what ever you want to call it.

In general, usually after eight weeks of training, owners and there dogs (as a team) will pass an assessment day whether they have earnt it or not. Yes, you are given a certificate to say you pass, but did the dog and owner really deserve it. Most cases no.

There are also a lot of people out there who say Sammie’s can’t be trained, including the recall and can’t be trained to a high level. A lot of dog people who don't own Samoyeds can't trial and even say that Sammie’s should only stay in the show ring because they are pretty (and other reasons). Regretfully this is a mentality that even some people these days still have, both in the breed and those outside.

This has been around for decades, as is still around today.

As part of training, you must trust in your Sammy, as your Sammy must trust you.

With anything you do with your dog, you need to work as a team.

Sammie’s are still being trialled today, in Victoria, ACT and NSW. And yes, young dogs that have been doing recalls and trial work from a young age, from 5 months of age, are still forces in the trial ring today.

Training you dog is hard work, and takes time. Patience is a key, especially at a young age. Training and trialing can be good fun, it can be frustrating, but very rewarding.

This is actually getting quite silly and boring. It is quite childish.

In response to what you said about short legs etc, can I just remind you that this discussion began with a pet buyer. A pet purchaser doesn't need length of leg. As far as pets are concerned, temperament really is everything (bar a crippled dog)

Yes, and I would think anyone would prefer a dog that is softer than an agreesive Samoyeds. Whether a pet home or a breeder.

Who her would love an agreesive Samoyed. Or would prefer a softer one if they had the two options.

A shy dog might do fine with a bit of work with an experienced owner, but someone who wants the happy go lucky Samoyed they saw at the park or in the ring should be able to have that without much work, and generally this is the way Samoyeds are, so why use one that isn't that way when you have so many to chose from that are happy and confident?

I though we were taliking about puppies. But everyone wants a happy dog.

When you pick a puppy up at 8 weeks, even a experienced breeder can not gaurantee you how they will turn out, both physically and mentally. They have an idea, but can't gaurantee it.

At 8 weeks there a ball full of playfull fluff.

But maybe you can be the first offer a gaurentee that when the puppies that you breed will continue to smile at all times during their life, when you have your first litter.

Straight stiffles will never kill anyone in a state of extreme fear, and the problems associated with cat feet will never result in a dog being rehomed multiple times or being put to sleep.

Sorry, you've lost me again

Apart from the standard, the 'real world' also calls for sound temperament.

Yes, there are not many with a temperant that unsound that they are aggressive.

Bindii, one last question, do you enjoy driving around round abouts?

Cause thats what we both are doing.

QUOTE (Icemist @ 19th Apr 2010 - 04:10 PM)

Also you have said that a puppy buyer wouldnt give a stuff about cats feet, thats right, they would be more concerned that the puppy in good health, and a baby puppy does not back off from people (or at least I have never seen or heard of one doning that), so how does a person know that the puppy has a soft temperament when a baby puppy? A new puppy in a new enviroment would be at first a little wary, sniffing around etc before it gets used to a new home. Once that puppy settles into that family envirorment, and would not back away from family member unless misstreated, or something severly wrong mentaly.

More of a problem than being soft in a family envoroment would be the puppy being agresive.

In answer to bolded question above - the puppies parents . And if you're really keen or even interested in using the pup for breeding, the dogs behind that pup, the litter mates, previous pups that those parents have sired.

In answer to the bold - we will just keep going in circles.

Precisely. But you did say that it would be the "worst decision of [my] breeding career", so people can certainly try to force then, can't they

You have lost me here

All mankind. I get the idea, but I maybe wrong, But the Samoyed standard doesn't.. It says "Affection to all mankind"

and then, as you've said, "severe unprovoked aggression" is a fault. It doesn't say anything 'in between' like the JS standard does. So that is how I read it. And that is interpretation

So you are saying that every Samoyeds should love every human being on the planet? by being affectionate to all mankind.

You can take it literally if you want, by saying All Mankind, and that is the way you interpret it.

I don't intrepret that way because it is unrealistic in the real world.

The same goes for this part of the standard "On account of the depth of chest required the legs should be moderately long, a very short-legged dog is to be deprecated. Hindquarters should be particularly well developed, stifles well angulated, and any suggestion of unsound stifles or cowhocks severely penalised."

How many dogs do you see with short legs, stiffles not angulated and cowhocked.

Be a bit realistic please.

In my original essay post on this topic i stated that temperament is mostly hereditary

And as I said, it is your opinion, I do not have to agree with it, nor does anyone else have to agree with either of us.

Given that I am completely new to this

if my bitch (who doesn't exist at the moment and possible hasn't even been thought about!) grows up to be nervous or shy (as in - by the time she is 12 months, obviously there are stages of development etc) then I will not be using her as my foundation bitch.. I would not want to start with that. Similarly, if her hips were shocking, or there were any other major faults! Regardless of the fact that she wasn't 'aggressive' i wouldn't want to start with a soft bitch. Is that honestly the worst decision I could make, the very first one that i make in my breeding career? Perhaps I'm not off to a good start!

And as I said before, What you use decide to breed from and with is your choice, no one can force you to choose a dog or a bitch.

Yes, this is interesting, but I don't think anyone is going to add much as we becoming like two bulls bashing their heads together to be dominate , and Im sure everyone is getting sick of it.

Everyone has an opinion, they will differ from both of us.

I think in this case, we can agree to disagree!

But if anyone else wants a say, feel free.

I'm really quickly replying here from work but just want to say that my original comment about temperament was in referrence to perfect hips. I never implied that temperament was everything and the only thing that matters... The original point I intended making was that there is no 'one' thing that is the most important - the point I was making was that a puppy should not just be bought because the parents have good hips. The original conversation began with a puppy buyer and for them temperament should be very important, they probably wouldn't really give a stuff about cat feet anyway, nor know what that means! (not that I think it's ok, but for a pet it makes no difference)

No, you didn't imply that temperament was everything, but you did state that a "huge thing would be temprement" refering to soft dogs.

I never implied that you thought this is the only thing that matters, I am trying to point out with things whether temperament, size, feet, what ever, when breeding don't close your eyes to certain dogs because of this and that.

Also you have said that a puppy buyer wouldnt give a stuff about cats feet, thats right, they would be more concerned that the puppy in good health, and a baby puppy does not back off from people (or at least I have never seen or heard of one doning that), so how does a person know that the puppy has a soft temperament when a baby puppy? A new puppy in a new enviroment would be at first a little wary, sniffing around etc before it gets used to a new home. Once that puppy settles into that family envirorment, and would not back away from family member unless misstreated, or something severly wrong mentaly.

More of a problem than being soft in a family envoroment would be the puppy being agresive.

I would chose a dog with higher hips over one with an unsound temperament (and the degree of 'unsoundness' would be unique to each and everyone of us) to be used for breeding. You think that would be s bad decision in my breeding, and I think cutting out a dog with a hipscore of 20 for the reason of the hipscore *only* is a bad decision.. But you have more experience, so I'm understanding that I may be incorrect on this opinion.

Everyone has thier own opinion on what to breed, thats what I said earlier in the piece, 2nd line actually.

Degree of soundness of temperament and hips, feet etc will be different on every dog. Its a juggling act.

What you use decide to breed from and with is your choice, no one can force you to choose a dog or a bitch.

The point you made about affection toward mankind completely ignored the emphasis I put on the fact that it says "all" mankind in the standard and the ideals I have of a Samoyed.

No one can change your ideals of a Samoyed, let alone me. We all have have them.

All mankind. I get the idea, but I maybe wrong, that it seems like your definition of affection is when a dog freely comes up and is willing to be patted, played with etc, not being shy or nervous, to have it tummy rubbed etc.

And that is good if that if your ideal. keep it that way.

A Fault of the breed is Severe unprovoked aggressiveness.

It also say that displaying affection towards all mankind. But is shyness or being nervous a fault, as long as they are not agreesive. You will find with most, if not all shy Sammies, once you sit down they will come round.

Does affection have to be instant. Could it take a bit tof time for the dog to know you, as with humans, or many other animals.

But not all afection is showed in the same way.

Affection is displayed in different ways, Every dog is diferent. Some are independent and prefer to run around and come sometimes for a pat. Others just can't keep away from human activity.

Just because a dog shys away, does not mean it is not affectionate. It means that there could be a an issue with the dog not trusting in a person. Not every Samoyed has to lick the hand of every person. As long as the dog does not show aggression.

All the Sammies I know that are shy or nervous, and may back off, are still willing to be patted and played with once you sit down with them. Once sitting down with them, they come to.

There is a big difference between being shy and nervous to not being affectionate.

If there was no affection there to any mankind, let alone all, wouldnt the dog would be aggressive.

Have you seen many agressive Sammies? Bite the head off a Chihuahua, I knew a Sammy that did this. he wasnt too affectionate.

Even the Sammies that "All mankind" bashes, kicks, beats, starves, cage, skins, and eats!

Each dog has a threshold, just the same as human. Do these Sammies have the right not to love "all" of mankind. Just some.

Most Sammies will still be affectionate even after being beaten to a pulp, as with my parents boy, he was shy but still affectionate and let young children play with him, pull his tail, ears etc. I know, I pulled his ears and tail.

What prompted the line about being kennel blind?

Due to talking about breeding. It is a recoginsed term. I am presuming you have heard of it, and maybe thought I was suggesting it at yourself, which is not the case.

It was a problem in previous times.

It is something that is slowly disolving from this breed.

Kennel blindness is a mistake that many breeders, not just Sammies went through a while ago.

Breeders would only use dogs and purchase dogs within their own little patch.

Mostly due to the competetion factor. many did not want to use a dog because such and such had it. This did not benefit the breed.

Of recent times, many have realised that they must suck up the pride and move out of their patch to use other lines. it also brings more harmony.

Its part of being open minded. Leaving options open.

I wrote this to intend discussion and I was hoping a few more people might have got involved, whether they have different points of views or not.

We are all here to learn and express opinions. And I welcome all. What I offer is experience.

I have had soft dogs, I have had strong dogs. I have seen both sides and I have breed with both sides, and it is not as simple as tossing a dog out or dismissing a dog because it is soft or has other issues. There are many factors to be looked at.

No dog is perfect. Why use it when the dog is not perfect……simple, because the breed will die out. That’s why choices are made by breeders in what they are thinking will benefit the breed, or themselves. There’s not a great lot of decent breeding dogs in this country. We do not have the expanded lines as in Europe and the US. (I’ll get to my point is a sec)

I understand what the standard that was written all those years ago, and agree with it. But also to the point, the breed has changed and will continue to change. For the Good or the bad? We will all have to wait and see.

Bindii makes some very good points and it is good that she has gone onto the next step with this and yes she is correct when saying the standard says Sammie’s should display affection to all mankind, and she makes a very good argument. But can’t a softer dog display affection and cuddle up to their owners on a cold winters night…why can’t it? Isn’t this affection to mankind?

I am not here to argue against the standard temperament of this breed, but here a question a quote and why I will argue against it.

And that quote was not touching a softer dog, because of parents.

There is talk of the standard, and what the standard say. Lets put in to practice as well, as well as questions to ponder.

Why would you not purchase a puppy that has soft parents or even a soft dog, over a dog that could have cat feet, short legs, short tail, over coated?

A dog with these faults or some of these faults would die in it natural habitat, while a softer dog would have more chance of survival.

Why are these allowed here, when they would surely die? The show ring? Because someone said?

Why is softness more important than other faults, because of the show ring?

Why aren’t the above faults dealt with equally or harsher that a softer dog?

Because people are more aware than a dog that shy over a dog that has some major faults and CAN or WILL defiantly pass these faults on.

As I said before, I’m not here to argue against temperament, but I’m here to open people’s eyes a little more, especially from a breeding point of view.

To see more of the picture.

Temperament in this breed is very important. You don’t want them ‘soft’ but you don’t want them aggressive.

Advice IMO, just like a dog with a 20 score of HD, don’t dismiss it until you have all the facts, also see what is out there.

As for the definition of soft, I can see where you are coming from. Basically Backing away, nervousness or unsure around people.

(Like humans, there are also different types of nervousness as well)

But there are many reasons to why a dog may seem ‘soft’.

Hormones

Growing pains

Adolescence

Seasons

Mistreatment, beaten etc

Fire works etc

There just a couple from the top of my head.

My eyes are not shut on this not being hereditary, but I do not believe that softness, nor is aggressiveness, even thou I sadly say I have seen a Samoyed kennel in Australia that contradicts my belief on this matter (on the aggressive side), is hereditary.

This is why I want to start this conversation, and this quote made me want to get the following words out, especially to any potential breeders of any breed.

My advice to any potential breeder:

As a breeder, to any potential breeder of any breed, don’t close your eyes/mind, KEEP IT OPEN, don’t shut out and close the door and dismiss a dog because it has an issue, unless you are 100% sure of the issue is and what has caused it, especially if you have only seen the dog once or twice.

Other than things like PRA, HD (Physical defects), you should really look hard and strong at, but other things like mental problems of which you will have no real idea what is behind it, maybe its just speculation, hear rumours, you should find out what the underlying problem is and if it is a short term thing or whether it is so called ’heredity’.

Look at what the dog/s have produced in the past.

Look at what is behind the dog, parents, grand parents etc, not just at the dog itself. You will always have a throw back somewhere down the track.

Shutting the door on a dog because it is soft may be the worst decision of your breeding career. Similar in aspects to “Kennel Blindness’.

I made a decision years ago not to use an aggressive Samoyed that I really loved…strange I said that. The dog was aggressive but never throw aggressive off spring, or grand children, or great grand children.

I don’t say that I regret it, but I wish I could go back in time to reconsider my options.

Keeping the mind open, of which I did not have fully open back then.

The same with softness. Environmental factors, how the dog is brought up and other factors relating to softness, getting a fright at a young tender age, as a baby, or going throw the adolescence ten ager years. These early years can change a dog dramatically, even too much being wrapped up too much in cotton wool.

Experience has shown me the strongest of temperaments in any dog, especially in bitches can crumble at a given moment...for various reasons (as stated above, most relevant is hormones and seasons)......and shortly after that dog is back to its normal strongest self.

Strange.

But an example is Hormonal imbalances, eg bitches in season, growing pains etc.

The best example is with my old bitch Mishka..

Aust Grand Champion Mezen The Ice Maiden CDX ET.

Strong in confirmation, good temperament, obedient but strong in mind, and built for what she’s meant to do...as all the 3 different titles suggest these, especially the obedience and endurance titles. Point score winner in both show and obedience.

Mishka was an outstanding trialling dog, winning the obedience ring in both Novice and Open levels. She was one of the top guns of her time.

Mishka had just come in 4th place at the State Obedience titles and had won other trials coming up to a trial in Wagga.

We entered the ring and did the heal work etc scoring 29 out of 30. Went to do the Stand for Exam, she backed off from the judge. What the hell!

The judge tried it again. She backed off again...I couldn't believe it.

Four weeks later she was in season. But I didn't put my finger on it straight away.

The same thing happened just before her next season, but in a show ring. I figured it out. Hormones, being in season.

She produced Australia’s greatest ever Samoyed Obedience Champion, her off spring obtained countless tiles, both show, endurance and obedience, grand children and great GC, and great, great GC.

If someone had seen her backing off during those times before she came into season, the suggestion would have been to dismiss buying a from her…...without really knowing her, or what was happening at that particular time!

Also, separation from the pack can be devastating for a puppy, again experience has shown me this.

You also say that one bad experience will or should affect a dog…….what about in humans. You here it all the time, one bad experience has changed that person, why can’t this happen to dogs? Because there not smart, they don’t think like us, they are thicker, they are so called thicker skinned as some people would put it.

Just because they have four legs, does not mean a brain in a four legged creature can tolerate a bad experience and put in into perspective and get over something like a human, when humans can’t do those themselves.

My parent’s first dog that they purchased at 18 months, was hung, left to die by their former owners. Chain around the neck hanging from the clothes line. His partner dog (a bitch) was already dead by the time the breeders got their. This dog had been beaten, starved and beaten.

Would you not trust people if you had been mistreated or left to die. The same for animals, but this does not mean its going to be passed on. Circumstances.

Aggressive nor softness was not breed in to any offspring. And if there was any dog that had the right to do it, it was this one.

I also know of a dog here in NSW that has strong parents, strong, GP, GGP etc, and they have produced a really soft dog.

Just because the parents are soft, does not mean you will have soft dogs, and visa versa.

As for dogs ending up in the pound, it is more likely to be an over active dog than a quietter one.

My point is, yes temperament is an important factor in this breed, but there are many other factors as well. Don’t dismiss a dog without proper research.

Walk away, learn, but open your mind up, keep it open, don’t be kennel blind, (I’m starting to sound like a pot head hippy) ;) , especially to dog breeding, the mistakes have all been made before.

I may have gone a little of track here :D , but

There’s a little saying ‘NEVER SAY NEVER’.

The buyer also needs to be aware of more things than just having as lower score as possible. A huge thing would be temperament, of course. If the dam or sire was skittish or soft, even if they had a score of 0:0 I wouldn't want one!

Hi Bindii,

You've brought up something here that not everyone might understand.

Im not being picky here, and we all have our opinions, but I don't fully agree with your comment here, and I will explain why, after some gives a crack at some questions below.

not just for Bindii, anyone can have a crack this

Skittish or soft... what definition do you give to this?

and before making a judgment, could there be underlying factors (reasons) why a dog is skittish or soft?

Is it hereditary?

If a parent of a dog was skittish or sofy, why would you knock a puppy back?

Interesting topic.

I've always been one for "zomg never breed anything over the breed average"

But I was speaking to a vet about it the other day, i was discussing hips and their impact on breeding and whether or not one should boycott a particular dog or line because of a slightly higher than average score and she got me thinking on a different level.

I thought the point was to lower the score and rid the Samoyed popularity of hip dysplasia. I thought the vet would agree... but the vet actually didn't feel that hip score of around 20 would be such a terrible thing as far as the Samoyed gene pool, and was far more concerned with hip scores ruling breeding, resulting in a smaller gene pool.

If this is a dogs only fault, if it is healthy in all other ways and dogs in it's pedigree have had no problems, then should it completely impact breeding? Afterall, a score of 20 may not ever effect a dog, or at least not until an old age. 20 is *just* over breed average - and given that most scores are well under 10 means that there are many that are *much* worse - they should not be bred from.

Of course it would be ideal not to breed anything above the breed average, but i now fear that if that was the only thing that people considered the gene pool would shrink considerably and it's already not a huge one. More things would crop up from close breeding and that could bring with it far worse things than a hip score of 20.

Remember that hip scores are just that - they are a score. If a dog is not crippled with a score of 20, what really is the problem? breeding to a dog with a lower score is smart, and i'm sure there were many other considerations to their pedigrees, personal health and future when a dog with a higher score was used. Breeding two very close lines is probably a far bigger risk because there may be underlying health issues that are recessive and will only crop up when two closely related dogs are mated.

If i were to import a dog and his hip score was 20, what is more important? The fresh lines my dog would bring, or the risk of passing on a slightly higher than average hip score?

Bindii is correct in what she says here, as with her vet, my vet who scores dogs for the Australian federal Police (AFP) and Customs, has the same view.

Thats why with a score of 20, just slightly above the average, Im not saying use him, but you would keep an open mind. You may not have a choice.

In Australia we have limited lines unlike Europe ans USA. On occassions, sometimes you may need to use a "slightly" higher score than the avaerage, and I quote "Slightly", to get what you need.

As for higher scores, I have seen a dog with a score around 60, live a perfectly good life with no signs of HD, jumping to get clothes off of washing lines etc. very healthy and full of life.

HD is regretfully is part of the breed that most breeders will acept to a certain degree, and it may never be fully bred out.

Being a breeder is not easy as people think. We just dont put two dogs together for the fun of it or just for the sake of it. Nor do we make money.

Pedigrees and dogs are researched, tough decissions are made.

Hip scores, blood tests etc are done, the bitches are carefully looked after, and treated like family, and a lot is done very scientificly. And so much can still go wrong.

It can be very agonising, heartbreaking and expensive, but very joyful and forfilling.

The litter I just had completely drainind me mently and pyshically and I only had one puppy in the litter. Mum and Bub came out fine. I spent a huge amount of money, approx 3 to 4 time what the pups value is. This was the known risk I took.

Many breeders do it for the love of the breed, and do their very best. Sometimes things do go pear shaped.

What enoys most breeders, of any breed, is someone that has really no idea what passion breeders have and what sacrifices are taken, and what goes into being able to present someone a healthy puppy at the age of 8 weeks.

It is from that time onwards, people that buy puppies need to stand up and take some responsibilty instead of pointing fingers. Yes the breeder has a responsibilty, BUT SO DOES THE NEW OWNER!

Good food and good love is what is needed, and for new owners to listen to advice and take head of what has been told to them by EXPERIENCED people.

Too many fingers are pionted without knowing the full facts, no responsibilty and common sense is taken, and too many dogs end up in the pound. And thats another thing breeder have to deal with.

And thats my rant for tonight