Pillow

Thank-you to everyone, who by your responses have helped me work through a very emotional situation. I don't want to sound like I was making too much of it but it is important to me how I breed, why I do and just generally in life people's feelings are important to me. I am on the downside years and take responsibility for what I do.

To maybe put closure to the thread: I am so grateful for the assistance you all have given me. This has been a heartbreaking situation I have never experienced before. It appears from my vet's viewpoint and what I have read I may be lucky in that regard. I will not breed these two again. I will call the owner's to-morrow and invite myself for a cuppa. Talk and listen. Talk about the things I discussed with the vet and my suggestions he agreed he would talk about with the owners of the pup when they came in for the first treatment. Hand over the purchase price in cash as a contribution to treatment. Be very happy to bring the little girl home if they prefer. Be available to talk about how things are going as time goes on.

I can sleep well tonight knowing and believing I gave it my best. Thank-you every-one.

I can account for all the pups from this mating and a previous litter 3 years ago. I can account for many of the pups sired by the dad with another bitch. I can account for the pups in a litter with this mum to another dog. Can account for all siblings of the sire. Can account for some of the siblings of grandma and some for grandfather.

There's a combined UK universities animal health group ... so a reliable source.

http://www.ufaw.org.uk/SHOULDEROSTEOCHONDROSISBULLTERRIER.php (their site deals with it in each breed separately, it's not saying only found in BT's).

They say that OCD is found in large & giant breeds, but some smaller, too.

Most importantly:

It is likely that affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents (Hazelwinkel & Nap 2009). Detecting carriers - those which carry and may pass on the gene(s) but which do not show signs of the disease themselves - is not currently possible.

As affected puppies can be born to unaffected parents ... and there's no present way of detecting carriers, there was no way you could prevent it occurring. That group also says that, while it seems genes are implicated, the gene or combination of genes associated with OCD hasn't been identified.

The genes responsible have yet to be determined.

Also, on another site, a Veterinary Radiologist points to something environmental perhaps triggering an underlying predisposition:

With OCD of the shoulder, lameness generally first occurs between 4 and 9 months and may be associated with a fall or accident playing with another dog. Lateral radiographs of the shoulder will reveal a flattening of the humeral head.

http://www.aztec-net.com/~lofrancokuvasz/health.html

I can't see how you could've done anything to prevent it ... given there's no screening possible for carriers & unaffected dogs can produce an affected puppy & an environmental incident may be necessary to trigger it.

The way you're searching out information about the disorder shows you're a decent, caring breeder.

That is great information. Thank-you also for your comment Mita, I appreciate it.

I think you have done everything you could, but just because something hasn't shown up for many generations doesn't mean the issue isn't genetic. If something is reccesive it can be hidden for generations. I say this because things can get ugly when the breeder assumes the owner has been irresponsible with the dog. Sometimes no one is to blame - genetics can be a bitch.

Yes I agree with you Megan. It is why I immediately went to "my responsibility". I do my testing but some still don't as it is not required. There was a time when you couldn't test. There are dogs back in my lines and every ones else's who we don't know if they were carriers of this that or the other. Our knowledge of them is based on what was and becomes apparent. I feel responsible in some way and not because I haven't done the right thing. I bred a pup that has a diagnosis of OCD. There is a lot of information and differing opinion, in studies, amongst vets and breeders and owners. I am not convinced that I shouldn't take responsibility because I started breeding the breed I have now when testing for anything was never a consideration. I did it anyway. I did it because I hoped to avoid what I am feeling right now. I hoped no one who bought a pup from me would have to feel like they do. I agree Megan, genetics is a bitch.

I think as a breeder you should still display empathy and offer moral support and understanding if nothing else. Not saying you aren't but sometimes its not so much the financial heartache in these situations but the emotional heartache.

Problems happen despite all the best intentions in the world.

as someone who has bought a "lemon" in the past, resulting in that dog being PTS at 20 months old, all I wanted was the above.

I understand the heartache too of a pup being PTS at close to 6 months. I bought her from an interstate breeder who I hadn't met until I flew to pick up my pup. We did the round of vets and when 2 specialists told me there was no real hope for her, I made the decision to PTS. The breeder of the pup is a much loved friend today. Thank-you for the sad reminder of how that feels (meaning in a good way). I don't lack empathy which is why I am in shock and great sadness as to how to do the right thing by the owner. I appreciate your thoughts Rebanne, it is a reminder for me to show the empathy not just feel it.

With the pup we bred they tried the conservative route first, injections and lots of crate rest (6-8 weeks worth). Only after that time did they then decide to go with the surgery. Recovery isn't hampered by waiting (so long as they are not in a position to further injure themselves) so if it was my dog I would probably go conservative first.

We offered to pay for the treatment and surgery but it wasn't taken up by the new owner. Difference being the pup went to someone we have known quite well for many years. So not a run of the mill puppy sale as such. I don't know the situation with you and this puppy owner, but you have to do what feels right. I know of an ACD that developed OCD (environment related) and the breeder paid for all treatment costs.

Thanks for your response regarding recovery not being hampered by going the management method first. I am encouraged by that. I have sold 3 pups into this family group over the years and a fourth pup has been requested. In view of that I take it that my standing has been a good one. They are good and responsible people. The (adult)son said after they received the diagnosis his mother had said to him to call me as I would take the pup back.

I appreciate your feedback DC.

I think the problem is if you start to pay towards costs where do you stop? they will then expect more.

I would go with what Rebanne suggests, either refund the purchase price and make sure they understand thats all you will give, or leave it as your current offer of a return.

I wouldn't consider it your fault at all, you have no idea how the dog was kept, only what you have been told.

What happens if they were roughing too much and the other one develops something, what will they expect then?

My feeling is to do what you have already done, offer a refund for return of pup, if they don't take it up, thats it.

once you start to offer assistance you are setting yourself up to be an endless pit of money, and they will see it as admission.

The decision is a difficult one and I understand your about admission. I appreciate your thoughts Juice.

Thanks Rebanne. I had thought of refunding the purchase price as a way to help with treatment. What did have me thinking though was that if this treatment wasn't successful I may be expected to continue to pay for any further requirements done the track. So I am deliberating between what may an ethical decision or a foolish one. I appreciate your thoughts.

I don't think it comes down to ethics. You did the tests, thats ethics, what more could you have done?

Yes I have always done the testing and tested for other things that no-else considers necessary to test for. There is nothing more I could have done. I didn't breed without a great deal of thought. I have always said to those in my breed who think I test unnecessarily: there is no point in saying it's never been a problem, when in 20 years time how would I know, if I don't have the test results to support that. I have never had a problem with a pup and think I am in shock. I feel for the owner.

Please don't forget my dilemma. Am I responsible in any way? As I said I have offered full refund and pup return. They don't want to return the pup. Should I offer to assist financially with treatment?

No I do not believe you are responsible in any way. Sh!t happens. You are dealing with a living creature. You have done the right thing by x-raying the parents etc. Sometimes life just throws us a curve ball and everyone has to deal with it. If it makes you feel better you could refund the purchase price but make it clear it is not an admitance of guilt nor that you are going to help out any more financially. The owners have to accept these things can just happen. You also do not know if the enviroment contributed to the problem. Life just sucks sometimes and everybody has to just get on with it.

Thanks Rebanne. I had thought of refunding the purchase price as a way to help with treatment. What did have me thinking though was that if this treatment wasn't successful I may be expected to continue to pay for any further requirements done the track. So I am deliberating between what may an ethical decision or a foolish one. I appreciate your thoughts.

I know of a number of performance dogs who had OCD as youngsters and went on to make a full recovery and have long agility/flyball careers, some of them reaching championship status in their sports.

Where is the OCD? Shoulder is apparently the best place to get it :) My sister's dog has it in one of her hocks but it was never operated on as she is purely a pet. She had 4 shots of cartrophen at 12months (when it was first diagnosed) and has had no issues since. One pup we bred had it in his shoulder and you wouldn't know it anymore, he was competing in agility as soon as he turned 18months. His was injury related (chasing a frisbee at 6 months old on frosty ground). He was a prime candidate too- purely commercial puppy diet, growing way too fast, and injured himself during a growth spurt.

In layman's terms OCD is essentially a bit of cartilage that has broken off while the joint is wide open during the growth phase. The faster growing the pup, the wider the joints can open, and the more chance that some exposed cartilage can be damaged, especially if pups are not kept quiet etc at this time. Surgery removes the bit of cartilage that is floating around in the joint causing issues, and the dog in theory goes on to lead a perfectly normal life :) Obviously that is in an ideal world, but that is how it is supposed to happen. Life has no guarantees of course.

Sounds positive then DC. This little one has it in her elbow. I have seen the x-rays (The owner says it's in her knee. He is upset.) She is starting her 4 X cartrophen shots this week and is been crated. I am trying to read a lot and ask questions of others. It seems early diagnosis, and treatment is a real plus.

If the management is successful that's great. If it's not successful could it be considered that doing the op immediately would have been a better solution?

Please don't forget my dilemma. Am I responsible in any way? As I said I have offered full refund and pup return. They don't want to return the pup. Should I offer to assist financially with treatment?

I know of a number of performance dogs who had OCD as youngsters and went on to make a full recovery and have long agility/flyball careers, some of them reaching championship status in their sports.

Where is the OCD? Shoulder is apparently the best place to get it :) My sister's dog has it in one of her hocks but it was never operated on as she is purely a pet. She had 4 shots of cartrophen at 12months (when it was first diagnosed) and has had no issues since. One pup we bred had it in his shoulder and you wouldn't know it anymore, he was competing in agility as soon as he turned 18months. His was injury related (chasing a frisbee at 6 months old on frosty ground). He was a prime candidate too- purely commercial puppy diet, growing way too fast, and injured himself during a growth spurt.

In layman's terms OCD is essentially a bit of cartilage that has broken off while the joint is wide open during the growth phase. The faster growing the pup, the wider the joints can open, and the more chance that some exposed cartilage can be damaged, especially if pups are not kept quiet etc at this time. Surgery removes the bit of cartilage that is floating around in the joint causing issues, and the dog in theory goes on to lead a perfectly normal life :) Obviously that is in an ideal world, but that is how it is supposed to happen. Life has no guarantees of course.

It sounds like you have a good basis for questioning environmental factors instead of genetics. This is the article I was thinking of: http://www.offa.org/pdf/hovanart.pdf

Is an interesting read, and reminds me to consider lateral individuals in breedings as well as vertical.

Thank-you Aloysha. I will read it.

Just a random thought, you said 2 pups went to the same house, did they rough and tumble too much together?

Yes, Juice. It's why I mentioned it and the older girl as well. It certainly could be a possibility.

You have to PM troy to get access - there is a pinned thread in there that will tell you what info to send him.

It may not be genetic, but lateral and not just vertical pedigrees can offer a whole lot more insight. Lateral pedigrees take in siblings in each generation. I had an article done on it in relation to HD and it was very interesting. Will try and find it.

I would be grateful if you are able to find the article Aloysha. I can account for all the pups from this mating and a previous litter 3 years ago. I can account for many of the pups sired by the dad with another bitch. I can account for the pups in a litter with this mum to another dog. Can account for all siblings of the sire. Can account for some of the siblings of grandma and some for grandfather.

Have x-rays been taken? How big is the chip? What has been suggested surgery wise? My understanding is once the chip is removed, if done asap once diagnosed, there is very little to none long term effects.

In greyhounds it often occurs around the 6 - 8 month mark, the chip is removed the dogs still go on to race.

Wow, that is fantastic news. I asked the vet what the prognosis was given his recommendation for treatment. He said "good, not great".

are you talking Osteochondritis Dissecans (OCD) or elbow dysplasia? Because if you remove the chip in OCD there should be little to no long term problems.

Thanks Rebanne. Chip. Vet is reluctant to suggest op until other methods, 4 X injections and 6 week crating. The owners will be in for the first injection next week. He will ask would they like to see specialist.

Maybe try posting in the "breeders" section, I am sure there are many other breeders who had to deal with disgruntled owners when a puppy was found to have an issue. They should be able to offer you advice on what your responsibilities and rights are :)

ETA: How do they know it has been there "since birth"? Is there an x-ray to prove this claim? And how does he know what the vet said when he wasn't there?

Thanks BJ. He is an upset man who purchased a pup from an accredited breeder who now has a whole lot of expense and limitations now placed on his pup. I understand it completely. No no evidence of anything prior to his little girl going lame.

I tried to post in Breeders Section wouldn't let me although I am a reg breeder with blue ribbon membership. I probably am not knowing how to post there correctly. If someone can tell me that would be great.

Thank-you DC. It is difficult to raise the environmental factors with an upset owner who doesn't seem to understand the condition. I don't want him to feel "blamed" or sound like I am avoiding responsibility either. The son of the owner of the other 2 is insisting in his words "it's been there since birth, the vet said so. He didn't see the vet when the puppy was taken in due to lameness. I want to do the right thing by the owners. They do not want to return the pup (neither would I in the same circumstances). I am genuinely upset for them and for the pup.

Can anyone help give an opinion how you might (as the breeder) address the situation if in the same circumstances.

OCD is generally not considered to be a genetic thing. Yes, there can be a genetic component to it, but that is more a genetic predisposition to growing too big too quickly (a big contributing factor to OCD) than to the condition itself.

I would be looking at environmental factors that may have contributed to it.

- Has the dog been doing too much during growth spurts?

- Have they been on a predominantly dry puppy diet (a big no-no in my books for large or fast growing breeds)?

- Have they sustained a seemingly minor injury during a growth spurt?

- Have they been allowed to chase balls/frisbees/sticks etc? We never allow chasing of anything until maturity, all fetching and play is to a toy that has already stopped moving to minimise the risk of turning/sliding injuries on growing joints.

- Are they living in an environment where stairs/rock walls/ledges/furniture are all freely accessible? Just because they have raised others in the same environment doesn't rule anything out, they may have just been lucky with the others (or unlucky with this one).

Edited to answer: Yes, it can occur from purely environmental factors. In most cases, from my understanding, this is usually the case and it has nothing to due with genetics at all (other than being a medium-large breed).

And please don't misunderstand I am trying to determine my responsibility so I can do what needs to be done. Not to avoid responsibility in any way.

No previous history. Pup left me at 9 weeks. She was a big pup. Was raised on Advance and owners have continued that diet. I have already advised them to get off Growth. This pup was 1 of 2 which went to the same household who already have an older dog bred by me. I have said the pup can come back home to me with full refund.

When owner rang me I went straight to the VET who diagnosed. This vet has also been my Vet for 14 years. The Vet said I had done my part in doing all tests. However I am trying to determine my responsibility as the breeder. Can OCD appear in a pup even when going back 3 generations all has been clear. Can it appear ONLY due to environmental factors.

Cut and pasted from my webpage here

Osteochondritis Dessicans

(OCD)

Osteochondritis dissecans, commonly known as

OCD, is a disease of the cartilage that can affect various joints in a dog. It

most commonly affects the shoulder, but can also manifest in the elbows, hips

or knees (stifle). OCD is a developmental condition that most frequently occurs

in rapidly growing large and giant breed dogs, typically between 6 and 9 months

of age and more often in male dogs.

The cause of OCD is considered to

be multifactorial. It is thought that there are several factors that contribute

to the formation of OCD lesions including trauma to the joint, genetics, rapid

growth, hormone imbalances, and nutrition. Prevention includes careful

selective breeding that avoids the breeding of animals with a history of OCD.

Young dogs should not undergo strenuous activity that jars or impacts the

joints, particularly jumping activities. Providing a good balanced diet that

promotes even, sustained growth is also recommended.

If there is no histroy of it in your lines, then I would be looking first to environmental factors - what was the pup fed, was it allowed to do lots of jumping around/up and down, taken for long walks had lots of rough play etc that might have done some damage. Also what it was fed. Was the pup desexed and when?

ttention to siblings etc though and watching for any further trends just to be on the safe side. Hopefully it will be a one off.

Thanks for that. Does the genetic pre-disposition have to be there for environmental factors to affect the pup?

I have just had a pup I bred diagnosed with OCD. Poor little girl now 5 months. Both parents were hip and elbow scored excellent. Grandma and Grandad on sires side both scored and owned by me. No problems. No problems in other pups from this mating (2)or from pups of litters bred from either mum or dad separately. This is a real surprise and concern for me. Where did it come from?

Gotcha, thanks Greytmate. Lots and lots of handling and interaction with puppies to determine temperament before saying yes to a puppy home. So, as I have thought and taken on - responsibility really rests with breeder.

Temperament influences behaviour "but is not the same as behavioural traits". Very clearly said thank-you. I understand this but still thinking through this one to be very clear in my mind.

A very simple example below. Tell me if I am understanding correctly.

Breed standard lists Temperament under CHARACTERISTICS and characteristic is described in behaviourable terms for example...inexhaustable energy.

2 dogs from the same litter may demonstrate that characteristic but temperament can be very different. Temperament is what influences this dog's behaviour with regard to inexhaustable energy. Eg if the characteristic is not satisfied one may be destructive and noisy, frustration may lead to aggressive responses. The other may be introverted, flat and depressed and not bond with owner.

Poor example but am I understanding correctly? If so this breed may not be best matched as a pet. But there are many people who love and breed this dog and most go into pet homes because where else do they go when the breeder runs one or two on and is left with pups. What is the ethical thing to do in these circumstances? Breed dogs with lower drive and needs? That may need the breed standard to be changed at some time, LOL Or rest responsibility on the pet owner's to have made a good choice?