Pillow

"And would such a thing stop with temperment?

While we are at it lets breed coated breeds with shorter coats so people can look after them more easily, lets make giant breeds smaller so they can fit into a more suburban home ect......"

I understand your point. I could be wrong but haven't some breeds been adapted over time and now stand as a breed in their own right. Mini versions, breeds of different coat lengths etc. Also crossbreeding to achieve different breeds. It's not alien to the purebred world.

Let alone all the cross breeding that appears to be done these days and sold under the banner as improving on the orignal breed or breeeding for purposebred pets. A brilliant marketing job!!

Don't misunderstand me though. I wouldn't want any changes made to my breed of choice and appreciate that others feel the same way. I do however believe if we are putting dogs into pet homes it is a responsibility to provide a dog that is truly suited to that environment and purpose.

I had not thought about this issue as dumbing down breeds for public consumption but understand the point clearly.

In current culture dogs are being thrust into dog parks and other very public places. Increasing numbers of people seem to believe their dog has a right to be there regardless of temperament, behaviour or lack of effective control.

Agree big responsibility rests with breeders to choose an appropriate home as an inappropriate new owner may not fully understand their responsibilities.

Could it be in some cases where 9 out of 10 pups are destined for pet homes, some breeders may just be asking too much from their original purpose bred dogs to fit the "pet" role. Or is it only incorrect handling and management on the owner's part? Pondering....

Good reading, thank-you. Very good explanation Greytmate. I should have said in my post that it was a given that dogs used in any breeding program be of excellent temperament. Genetic temperament faults were not a part of the conversation I was having with myself, but I didn't make that clear.

I agree totally with socialising and neutralising pups to their environment but would not put that low on a list of priorities. If temperament is observable in behaviourable terms (behaviours can form life long habits)I think that "socialising and neutralizing" requires thought as to like I said originally "what I need to do with these pups to produce dogs of excellent temperament". From the responses given I'm assuming that the actualities of socialising and neutralising to their environment may be different from one breed to the next, although I had thought the desired end result would have been similar for a pet.

It appears from the responses that the general view is that excellent temperament is what the breed standard calls for. I understand that, it's why we breed to a standard and choose the purebred dog.

My question regarding ideal temperament in a pet (crossing the breed barrier) is moot it seems. I can't quite let it go though as I think some breed temperament traits may not be "the ideal" in a pet and what one does with pups in those first 8 weeks may determine outcome. If selling pups into pet homes there is a huge responsibility to provide or in fact breed a "pet quality dog". Now there's a notion!!

Not sure if I've got my head around what I'm trying to say.

I'd love to hear from Greytmate what you do to socialise and neutralize your pups. Do you think the things you do are generic to all breeds or particular to yours?

TrinaJ the Rottweiller breed temperament sounds ideal.

Have you ever been in the social/pet outing circumstances e.g. park and have you ever thought there is something more you would like to see in your breed?

Good examples Gaylek. It's what I am thinking really. In your breed then Benson may have more of an ideal temperament as a pet "that is if you are an owner who wants to take your dog to a dog park for example".

Crisover, yes choosing the right breed to match your circumstances I agree is critical but lots of us learn that latter rather than sooner.

What I think I'm getting at is in Gaylek's example. If I was a breeder of that breed knowing 9 out of 10 of those pups are going to be in pet homes would I be looking at doing specific things with those pups to increase the qualities that Benson has. Not breed specific but temperament more ideal as a pet. Maybe?

Good examples Gaylek. It's what I am thinking really. In your breed then Benson may have more of an ideal temperament as a pet "that is if you are an owner who wants to take your dog to a dog park for example".

Crisover, yes choosing the right breed to match your circumstances I agree is critical but lots of us learn that latter rather than sooner.

What I think I'm getting at is in Gaylek's example. If I was a breeder of that breed knowing 9 out of 10 of those pups are going to be in pet homes would I be looking at doing specific things with those pups to increase the qualities that Benson has. Not breed specific but temperament more ideal as a pet. Maybe?

I agree totally regarding the example you gave and the purpose of the breed.

What makes a pet desirable to some may not be for others. I also thought of things like "aloofness" and hearing some one say the other day "I wish my dog would get in and play not ignore everyone. Now if that aloof dog gets pressured enough from other dogs who try to encourage it into a game that aloof dog may have a go (I told you ping off and leave me alone). Iit's breed specific temperament coupled with dominance when hassled by another dominate dog may not be a nice outing for the pet dog and it's owner. We could say that the owner in that case has set the dog up for failure.

I guess I might say how much more ideal would it be if that aloof dog was also passive and calm in that situation. I understand that owners choose the place and circumstance of their pet's outing. I'm just thinking as I go here.

That was what I pondered about. An excellent or typical breed temperament may not be what is ideal in a pet.

When raising puppies my first consideration is what I need to do with these pups to produce dogs with excellent temperament.

Today I was thinkiing about what I mean when I say "this dog has an excellent temperament". I usually give examples of that dogs behaviour under many different situations ( e.g. he's an entire dog who can be put in a park with 20 others and avoid trouble; or he remains steady and calm when presented with a new experience in a stressful situation) and the list goes on. I realised I describe temperament in behaviouable terms. Had not consciously thought about this before.

I went to the dictionary and found a simple definition of "temperament as being a person's or animal's nature esp.as it permanently affects their behaviour".

I pondered for a short time on breed specific temperament and what I would call excellent temperament in a pet.

What do you mean when you describe a dog as having an excellent (or similar word) temperament?

Do you think pet dogs need to display behaviours that may cross the breed barrier to be labelled as having an excellent temperament?

I know this is is an outdated thread but I don't get out much.

If I was a breeder who made a mistake and told the OP the wrong hip scores the first thing I would do as a responsible person/breeder would be to offer return of pup and full money back or if the OP preferred certainly pay for PennHip as a gesture of good will and any thing else I could do to make good my error.

I hope that little pup brings you joy every day.

I so appreciate this thread and everyone’s thoughts and feelings and do not entirely disagree with anyone’s viewpoint here. I am a Dogs Qld member and want to share what may be a slightly different perspective. When I first heard of the ABS my thoughts kinda went like this......please note I am not making comment on my approval or disapproval, nor did or do I have any knowledge on what others were thinking . just what I thought might have been.

DogsQ opened the scheme to all with fairly minimal requirements. They probably did this as they did not want a backlash from their members who had being doing what they do which had been acceptable to the organisation with little repercussions for breaches of the COE over a long period of time. The good, the bad and the ugly were all invited on board. This was possibly seen as a “balanced” approach – trying to meet the needs of current members/breeders/local & Sate govts/RSPCA/PETA/the general public etc.

I thought....... once they have a system in place it will provide a new platform, a starting place for policing/enforcing/correcting the organisations failures in the past. As with lots of things Accreditiation will become more difficult to obtain, the benchmark is raised over time. Let’s not alienate current members but have a system in place that new breeders will be required to meet.

I also thought that DogsQ could now talk up their concerns and demonstrate a pro-active approach regarding unethical breeding practices (which really only became concerning to them (read damming) as outside agencies and the general public began or were perceived to be applying pressure.

I live within the Brisbane City Council confines. Ten or more years ago I was saying that in the future owning a dog in the city will be made very difficult and breeding a dog in the city could be impossible. I am a registered breeder and we are aware this can now mean many things. I am a registered breeder with DogsQ and my local council – have been and held a permit for 14 years and bred 4 litters during that time.

I meet all the requirements plus of the ABS and cannot find in anything I’ve read a single thing that will cause harm to the dogs I love and breed, the new owners who I screen thoroughly or the purebred dog community as a whole. As the system is in place I saw an opportunity for all registered breeders to carry some real weight with the organisation, something our membership alone has not provided us with before. I make this remark as from what I have read here and seen many people have raised issues with CCCQ in the past and DQ and nothing had been done.

DogsQ need their member’s support for the ABS so that they can meet their own agenda. If all ethical breeders join as Accredited Breeders WE GET TO LOBBY AS A GROUP (they need us) AND WE RAISE THE BENCHMARK within our current and future group.

And then I thought.........being an ethical breeder and Accredited Breeder with DogsQ may just carry some weight when my Council makes it even more difficult for us city folk to retain the breeding permit I wish too. It may be one of those rare times when the symbiotic relationship of DQ and Govt may benefit myself and others to continue that which we hold a passion for, a love of and a right to – own and breed the purebred dog ethically.

He does have a management system in place at the moment they are separated in two different areas of the yard. But sometimes guests walk on through and leave gates open.

Can anyone suggest a good behaviorist or trainer so he can get his leadership skill in tact.

I have a very similar situation. 2 females who at home have to be separated at all times, have been for over 12 months. 2 experiences with them convinced me they would do each other considerable damage and would not stop the fight. Each day though I walk them and free run them with another 2 of my dogs off home ground with never an issue. They are very companionable and will sniff with each other and wait for each other to join everyone etc.

All of them are very obedient dogs and do what they are asked to do immediately, individually or when running as a pack, with or without the presence of other dogs. I don't think it's a leadership issue here but I might be too close to see it

Didn't mean to cut in here other than to say I have the same situation and it baffles me. I look forward to advice too.