nickyp

I'm free pretty much any day (a great thing about not working). Once we have a date, if it's a weekday, I can ask my OH to make sure he's not rostered to work that day, so he can look after our son.

I just came across an article that made me think of this thread.

Do dogs think?.

I like the example of Blue, the Rottweiler. His explanation makes good sense to me. It's certainly a better one than the dog being angry about the owner going to work.

I've just put my dogs back onto a raw diet after a couple of years on a mix of rmbs, dry food and scraps and I weigh their rmbs and vegies very carefully. I'm hopeless at guesstimating how much they need. If I don't weigh the food I always overfeed them and, as a result, they're overweight - not badly, but they each need to lose a couple of kilos.

I'm up for anymore K9 workshops in the Melb area. I went to one day at Lablover's in November and am really annoyed that I didn't get myself organised for May. I'm near Werribee and I'll travel pretty much anywhere within reason (I've just driven back from Sale today, so I'm not afraid of a drive ) . And I'm not working anymore so I'm available on almost any day of the week (childcare and partner's work committments allowing).

I'm very interested in training in drive. I have one girl (kelpiexacd) who seems to have drive to burn and I just don't know how to best use/direct it and another girl (kelpiex) who doesn't seem to have much, if any - at least I've never seen her turned on the way the other girl can be.

I'm really looking forward to bringing both my girls back again. and maybe the OH...

Next time Indi might actually have an idea of what sheep are , although, knowing her, she'd probably still want a young dog to come in with her and do all the work.

I still need to find a muzzle to fit Emmy, though. Working in the CBD I don't have much of a range of petshops to visit. At the end of the month I'll be unemployed (can't wait!) so I'll have more time to look and my weekends should be freer of domestic stuff, so I'm hoping I'll be able to get out there for some lessons.

Nickyp, sounds like you have a harder time than me!

Are you going to one of Herding guy's workshops at the end of Jan? If so, which day? I am going on the Saturday. If we are both going on the same day, we must keep our dogs away from each other.

I've probably made Em sound worse than she is. The problem for me is that her behaviour isn't predictable. She will be fine for ages and then she'll be a complete pain. What drives me nuts is that this is a dog than can heel on and off lead, and do all sorts of things ... when she wants to.

It makes me very wary about things like the herding days because I really don't know if she'll be reasonable or not. She was fine at the last herding day, but every outing is a new adventure.

I'm going to the herding day on the Sunday, so we'll miss you & Jyra. Maybe we can compare nutty dogs another time.

I have the same issue with Emmylou (kelpiexACD). She'll be fine for ages and I'll think we're doing well, then something will set her off (like a kid on a skateboard, or coming across successive dogs on our walk), or she'll just be in a funny mood and then she's a complete pain.

I had problems with her recently after we'd been away in the country for a few days with the dogs and my first 2 walks with her were horrendous. My OH has walked her since because he gets pulled off balance less easily. There's something about Em's height to weight ratio which makes it really difficult for me to remain stable when she's pulling and darting around. I've had a taller, heavier dog and never had the same amount of trouble with being almost pulled off my feet.

I prefer to use a flat collar when I walk her because she seems to respond more readily to a sort of snap on the lead (bad description) with that on. On a correction chain she just pulls it to the limit and chokes herself. You can't get it loose enough to correct and as soon as you get any slack in it she's got it back at the limit again. I've seen her tongue going blue and she'll still be pulling and making noises like she's choking to death.

Using food does no good. She either becomes so fixated on the food that she just sits in front of me and waits for the treat and won't move at all. Or she ignores it completely because the other stimulus is more interesting.

I'm hoping that going back to regular training and taking her to herding days, etc. will reduce her sensitivity to other dogs and changes in environment generally, but in the past she's been really good at training and dreadful everywhere else, so I'm not hugely optimistic.

I think you've got a great list there yogi. I'd just add one little caveat to the passion/enthusiasm: not to go over the top to the point where it can appear aggressive or intimidating.

I've had a couple of instructors who were inclined to push too hard and it really put me off. One would stand in the centre of the class barking at us all like a sergeant major. His classes were no fun and I would always leave early as I got sick of being yelled at. The thing is, I think he was just really passionate and got frustrated when the people in the class didn't seem to be as into it as he was.

Tracey,

If original post had only said what was below a lot of the angst would have been avoided:

I have read this thread with concern the more people talk about it and pat each other on the back and tell each other what a great day is was etc more people read it then some one thinks oh sounds fun i will have a go. Someone will have a go in a non-controlled environment (Unlike the training day at Dave's place ) and who knows what will happen.

It just takes one situation for the likes of PETA to be involved and this sport can get closed down. We have rules in place for a reason and yes I know there is no stopping a Border Collie, a Kelpie, Cattle dog or even a Shepherd pulling a sheep down and killing it, and this is something that everyone has a responsibility to avoid. But these breeds are within the rules.

The pitbulls, Staffies and Dobermans are not and we have a responsibility to let people know that have these breeds that they are unfortunately not allowed to compete in ANKC Events.

I am a Fully licensed ANKC Judge from HIC to Advanced in All courses and if one of these dogs were presented to me to judge I would refuse to judge it because it is not exceptable as per the RULES

Anyone that takes on the responsibility of conducting trainings days and trials etc has the responbility to the stock and the sport to inform these people that sorry this breed can't compete.

Sorry to Rain on your parade but someone had to say something i have had so many private emails about this tread from concerned people i couldn't not say any thing.

If that was all I had read my response would have been 'fair enough, point taken' and it would have been no big deal as I don't plan to trial.

By quoting the thread about the workshop or "fun day", and particularly the bits about Hagrid, you made it all about that and not about ANKC rules and I think those of us who took part in the workshop were within our rights to respond.

And I'll say again - because I really believe this - anyone who thought from reading that thread that the workshop was in anyway presented as an ANKC activity doesn't read very well.

edited to make more sense

I was saddened to see this thread started and even more saddened to see the people who started a lot of it put their tails between their legs & run. If you feel strongly enough about something to post it here, you should feel strongly enough to leave it here. The deletions really only prove that you don't have the strength of your convictions and the information to defend your point of view. Maybe in future you'll think things through more carefully before you post.

I don't think it was getting personal & nasty. I think people making unsubstantiated assertions, such as 'locking jaws' and 'ANKC herding will be hurt by non-ANKC events' were being called on them and they couldn't take the heat.

In regard to 'playing with sheep' - the sheep at the workshop were watched for tiredness & stress and the breaks we took were as much, if not more, for the sheeps' benefit than the dogs'. I'm not interested in 'playing with sheep'. If my girl doesn't reduce her urge to bite, I'll stop taking her. I don't like watching her behave that way.

Yes, I enjoyed the day. Yes, I'm going back. I'm not doing this purely as just another game for my dogs to play. I could take them to the park & throw a ball around a lot more cheaply if that was all I wanted. I want to see what I can achieve working with their instincts. I want to see what sort of handler I can become. It's actually all part of a longer term plan I'm working on for myself, so there's nothing half arsed about my intentions and I resent the implication that there is just because I'm not working with the ANKC. One day I might, but it won't be for a long time - especially after the sentiments I've seen expressed here.

oh ok I am sorry i thought the reason they were bred the way they are were was to make them excellent fighting dogs. But i'm most likely wrong their jaws are just like that to make it easier to eat Kibble etc.

The jaw structure of a pitbull is no different from any other dog. It's a behavioural thing to bite and hold, rather than shake. Their jaws don't lock, they just don't like to let go.

I'd thought knowledgable dog people had gotten past that particular myth.

Thank you for bring this up as this is my point. It was preceived by someone not there that is was an ANKC Event, the same as alot of other people that would have read it. I didn't know it wasn't an ANKC Event i had to ask someone if it was or not.

THANK YOU IT WAS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO GET AT ALL ALONG

And as I said, any perception that the workshop had any connection with the ANKC comes from poor reading, not from anything said in the thread. There is no way to control what people will imagine they see.

What you seem to be saying is that people running, attending, having anything to do with non-ANKC herding activities are under some sort of obligation to shout that from the rooftops for fear that anything that goes wrong at their event will be wrongly associated with the ANKC. Why? I don't accept the basic argument fo this thread that I - as a non-ANKC person - shouldn't take my dog herding because someone else out there might do the wrong thing and the ANKC could be blamed for it. That's absurd. It's up to the ANKC to promote itself properly. To look after it's own interests. It's not up to the rest of us - non-members, many of whom the ANKC wouldn't want to know about - to do it's job for it.

Frankly, one result of this thread is to ensure that, if either of my dogs do show a real aptitude for herding, there's no way I'll seek an ANKC title. The ANKC, by way of some of it's members, doesn't sound like an organisation I'd like to be associated with.

ONCE AGAIN THIS IS NOT ABOUT INDIVIDUAL DOGS OR DAVE. As far as I am concerned the fun day went well. Hagrid looks like he is doing very well and from Daves other posts I know he knows what he is doing. this is not the issue.

The tread was brought up to make people aware if they are running ANKC events or even if the events are presived to be ANKC Events that the rules are followed. Although from what people have said this event was not an ANKC Event it has been presived as one because of references to Intinct tests etc etc.

I think if you wanted the thread not be about the workshop run down here then you shouldn't have quoted from the thread about it so liberally. There's been so many references to it and the dogs (particularly Hagrid) at it that it's very difficult to see this thread as being about anything else.

The ANKC is only mentioned twice by name in the thread about the workshop and both those times by someone who was not there. None of the people who attended were under any illusion about any association with the ANKC. Any perceived connection would have arisen from poor reading of the thread.

where did any one say Hagrid was a nasty Pitbull this is why these threads turn nasty.

That's my (admittedly poor) attempt at sarcasm. When posting from work I have to be quick and that makes it difficult to refine my expression. My point was simply that any possible consequences of Hagrid coming into contact with sheep were thought of and addressed up front. I think Marina is great in that she's aware of and prepared to deal with the baggage that can go with owning a pitbull.

Those who are concerned about people just letting their dogs loose on sheep without proper training and supervision and any affect this might have on the ANKC herding should encourage the ANKC to be more proactive about promoting their discipline. It's up to the ANKC to differentiate themselves from everything else and make themselves a viable alternative.

*sigh* These two comments sum up why those who care about ANKC herding (and sheep welfare) are concerned. Not only an admission that no thought to the consequences of ones actions are happening but that it is in fact "paranoia" to consider ALL (good and bad) the consequences of a situation/action rather than just how "cool" and "fun" it could be.

And this comment shows that those who are so 'concerned' weren't there, don't know the people or the dogs involved and are being incredibly condescending to the rest of us.

Hagrid (the big nasty pitbull) worked at first in a muzzle, then on lead. He only worked off lead & unmuzzled at David's insistence. David was sure he would be OK and that anything that happened could be managed.

None of us who have talked about why we want to take part in herding have said we are doing it just because it's "cool" or "fun". We've said we want to do herding with our dogs to further their training and improve our skills as handlers. Because our dogs are not ANKC suitable or we are not interested in pursuing titles that's not good enough for you.

If any of you come down south from Queensland or NSW, stop off as you leave Melbourne Airport and take the time to meet David & Geoff & see what they're about. You'll be very pleasantly surprised.

I've read this thread about 4 times and (maybe it's just me) I'm not sure I understand what the point of it is.

Are you (OP or any other poster) trying to say that those of us not interested in doing ANKC herding shouldn't do it at all?

Dogs who are not a herding breed or mix should not be allowed to attempt herding?

Is the growth in interest in herding somehow threatening?

I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to understand what's being said and what it means for people like myself.

I have herding mix dogs (kelpiexACD & kelpiex?). My major interest is in learning how best to work with them and utilise their drives & instincts to provide them and me with a satisfying experience. I've attended the one herding workshop with the kelpiexACD as part of that quest and I plan to attend more to further it. I don't want an ANKC herding title. My dogs will possibly never actually work sheep. Is it suggested that I shouldn't be doing this?

Again, I don't want to start a fight (but I will bite if prodded ). I just want to get my head around this.

KismetKat,

she's a smart dog and would love to see her to just have a chance (with patience) to see if she is up to the task.

That's exactly why I took my kelpiexACD, Emmylou along. And I was concerned that she'd behave like a complete nutter - and she did. But in that nuttiness you can see the instinct working and that's the really great thing. Like hannahb's dog, Emmy needs to reduce the urge to bite and increase the interest in actually herding the sheep.

Emmy & I & my kelpiexGSD, Indi, will be at the next one, so there'll be plenty of feral behaviour going on. Indi is also a smart dog, but prone to airheadedness and has a softer temp than Emmy, so gets afraid if I'm as firm with her as I need to be with Em. The only thing I've ever seen her concentrate fully on is chasing rabbits. Having seem Emmy with sheep, I want to see if she is also up to the task.

Just before Christmas 1988 my sister & I went to the pet shop in Prahran. We were sharing a house in St Kilda at the time & she wanted a new bowl for her dog. While she ummed & ahhed over what to buy I went to look at the Christmas kittens.

Sitting in amongst the little roly poly kittens was a larger, black, scrawny looking one. He sat very still with his eyes shut, sniffling (I'd never seen a cat do that before) and shivering every now & then. When the shop assistant took him out of the cage and gave him to me to hold he just put his head on my shoulder & sighed. He was sold.

My sister & I went straight from the pet shop to our vet. On the way I tried to think of a name for him. Jim was all I could think of. As soon as the vet looked at Jim he said, "You know he's going to die, don't you" Jim had cat flu very badly. I just shrugged. I couldn't have left him at the pet shop. I had no choice but to try to get him well.

It was a long haul. Jim got over the first bout of cat flu, only to pick it up again when my sister bought home another kitten who she didn't realise was sick. It took about 3 months all up before he was fully well. Once he was healthy, though, he grew into a big beautiful black cat. He had a gorgeous glossy coat and you could see the muscles rippling underneath.

When I moved home to my parents' a couple of years later Jim came with me and stayed behind when I left. He had become my dad's cat and it didn't seem fair to seperate them. Over the years he came to rule the area around my parents' house, keeping the family dogs and the neighbourhood cats well and truly under his thumb. But then he aged as all cats do and started to lose more & more of his battles. A fight 3 years ago left him with a ring of abcessed wounds around his neck and he was nearly sent to the bridge when they wouldn't heal. They eventually did, but he was never the same afterward.

Jim developed thyroid problems requiring medication and every few months would come close to the final trip to the vet. Usually an adjustment to his medication saved him. For the last week, though, he had been refusing to eat and drinking huge quantities. He hadn't had his meds all week and had lost a lot of condition. My parents took him to the vet today and they found a mass in his abdomen. The vet offered the option of exploratory surgery but, given Jim's age & condition, it was decided that it would be kinder to let him go.

He rested his head on my mum's hand while the needle was administered. My dad had to leave the room. Although Mum always claimed that she didn't like Jim, he's only one of the family pets I know of that she's stayed with for the end, so she must have cared a bit.

Goodbye Jim. 17 years was a damn good innings for a kitten that was 'going to die'.

(Sorry for the long post about a cat on a dog forum, but he deserves to be remembered)

No, any dog can try. Hagrid the pitbull came along last time and was fantastic.

YB, looks like you & I might have very similar birthdays ... and similar ideas about how we'd like to celebrate them. :wink:

Just to add my 2c worth. We joined ADT about 3 years ago. We'd tried the local obedience club and weren't happy with their methods (if the dog won't listen, just correct harder & harder until it does), or the variation in the quality of the trainers and we didn't know of any professional trainers in our area. ADT was recommended by my chiropractor. I don't remember what we paid for our 2 dogs at the time, but it did feel like a lot of money.

For me, one of the good things about having paid up front was that it gave me an impetus to keep going when I got a bit frustrated, or the weather was bad, or I was tired, etc. When it came down to it I just said "I've paid my money and I need to make use of this" and got myself moving. If I had been unhappy with the quality of the training I'd definitely have said something and expected either an improvement or a refund. Having paid the full amount, I had an investment in it that I wanted to see results for. If I'd been paying week by week and been unhappy I would have just stopped going.

We did stop going and haven't been back to ADT in a couple of years. The dogs have taken a bit of a back seat because of my son's arrival and I'm just starting to redress the balance a bit. One of the good things about having paid for 'lifetime training' is that, when I go back in the new year as I plan to, I don't have to find more money to pay for training, which makes it easier to return. If I went back to the local obedience club I'd have to come up with another membership fee and start all over again.

I suppose, at the end of the day, it's horses for courses.

I'm most definitely in!

And I'll bring both the girls this time. I think Indiana needs a go too.

We haven't seen any of Banjo on this thread yet, so here are a couple:

And, for the people who liked the look of Tuppy in the pics I put on the Photos forum, here she is again:

And last, but not least, Rosie:

Power!

That probably should say "Come 'ere so I can bite you!" :D

"Isnt this how every good sheepdog cools off on a hot day?" laugh.gif

It's certainly how Em cools off every chance she gets and the dirtier the water the happier she is.

Thanks for posting those. I'd love to see any others you have of Emmy. I'll have to show these to OH when he gets back. He's off walking the little nutter right now because I'm too tired and she's jumping out of her skin. I think she needs to go herding every day!

Nickyp and Emmy - You can cross the heeler with a kelpie but you can't take the heeler out. Who'd believe that energy was hidden away in that sweet little pooch. Even Scout looked amazed at the power behind that dog.

Oh I know all about the energy in that little pooch !! And it doesn't get any less as she gets older. She's running around the yard looking for something to play with this morning as if she'd done nothing all day yesterday.

Seriously, it was fantastic to see Em "ON" and getting into it, even if the biting is not what we wanted. In hindsight, I shouldn't be surprised that she was biting the sheep to make them move, that's her way - sniff, poke it with your nose, then bite until you get a reaction. And she got a reaction.

At the end I felt she was starting to stop and look to me for direction and I just wasn't ready to give it, so I've definitely got a bit of work to do. I should have taken the opportunity to work with Tuppy when it was offered, but I was enjoying watching too much at the time. Next time (and there will be a next time) I'll definitely take you up on it.

mmmmm...everyone says their dogs are tired, the two pups have made a marvellous recovery and are racing around home again.

Em kind of slid out of the car when we got home and collapsed on the back verandah for a while, then when I looked outside about an hour later, she was clowning around with her favourite ball! She's crazy!! She's lying on the couch now looking completely done in, though, and I think she'll be a bit stiff and sore tomorrow.

Actually, I think I might be a bit stiff and sore tomorrow, myself...

Thanks Corine.

Heather had her camera out all day, so I'm hoping she'll post lots.