Aidan3

I had a big chat with my awesome vet. She went off and looked back over her entire case history (10 years), did some research, and agreed that an ACTH stimulation test was the way to go. Booked in for tomorrow. I don't want to get my hopes up, but at least we'll know one way or another.

I agree they are very harsh. But then, if you follow Koehler's instructions for fixing problem behaviours 99% of dogs will never require such harsh measures as found in the second half of the book. Personally, I cannot imagine raising a dog from a puppy how one would ever need to employ such harsh methods. But then I am not a professional trainer, and I don't have to deal with incompetent owners so foolish to allow such behaviors to arise in the first place. Welll.... I guess once you train a larger variety of dogs you'll soon see that not everything comes down to "nurture". Hence, the issue with prescriptive training methods. We get pretty close with positive reinforcement methods so long as they are well implemented and not taken to extremes, which is why most trainers are offering that sort of training now. It is more flexible and more universal, with less fallout from handler error. An owner doesn't need to be incompetent for unwanted behaviours to surface. At one point I looked at one of my classes (for dogs with aggression problems) and every handler had one problem dog, and one completely normal dog at home. None of them were clueless, all of them undertook basic training, all of them had sought help early from other trainers or clubs. It was the first time I was really forced to step back and think about how much of an influence "nature" will have regardless of our understanding of behaviour modification.

Sorry for your loss, sounds like you had a great dog and a great bond. I think the main problem comes from Koehler's problem behaviour modification methods, which were harsh by any account. The long-line training can be very gentle, particularly with a biddable dog. As with anything, how the "method" turns out will depend partly on the trainer, and partly on the dog.

So what is the issue here? Do people here object to a dog being proof using corrections or not? Many people here say that they do not object to a dog being proofed with corrections. If so, then again, what is the issue? What is your real life experience with Koehler method, itsadogslife? It's a fair question. As you say, not many people actually do it, but a lot of people have strong opinions on the method. ETA: please don't take the question the wrong way, I'm not trying to "call you out" on anything but to get a better understanding of where you are coming from.

Haha, the first time I saw this I though "Oh too bad, he missed the tunnel", so it's fair to say that dog is better trained than me

No, but the learning principles are the same. If you cue a behaviour taught in drive on a two hour walk, you should expect to see a similar level of drive though; e.g I would let my dogs go off and explore in the bush, but they would always keep an ear and eye out for me, and if I called them they would come running at speed.

I've got to say, the score in the first video was very lenient, but I was impressed with the improvement made between the two videos.

I'd take another 3 years quite happily, even if I have to carry her outside every morning. I don't think she'd like a puppy though.

Hmm, we could do that. Full lab at the clinic I go to. Yes, that's a big problem for us and I'm in two minds about it. On one hand, Rimadyl appeared to work very quickly but then her symptoms started to return. Correlation but not causation, I have to wonder? In any case, I can only give it to her if she eats. Fortunately she ate a bit more liver and cat food this morning, enough for me to feel safe to give her 50mg of Rimadyl so I'll see how she responds to that. She had her breakfast in two parts, the first part nearly came back up but she kept it down. A bit later she ate more on her own, without my prompting. Thanks Rappie, very kind of you And thanks for your help so far.

Thanks Jules, I realise I made a huge mistake only having two dogs and letting them become such a big part of my life. I'm going to get 12 dogs and only give them 5 minutes each per day, ugly dogs too (but not so ugly I feel sorry for them), with no personalities. Yeah, and it belongs to the cats

I agree with this, I would be surprised if Koehler ever trained two dogs the same way. I mentioned early on in this thread my early experiences of being trained almost exactly as per the video you showed, and that even then, most people were making their own changes. Whether anyone ever went off and did the light line work outside of class I have no idea, from the looks of their off-leash recalls, probably not I do a lot of long-line work with a tip of the hat to Koehler. But we know a lot more about learning now so to do it exactly the same way would not make sense to me.

I don't know what you mean by this. A Koehler trained dog whilst still in training has a very light line attached to it - for reinforcement if needed - as the weeks progress the line is progressively shortened until none exists. At that point the dog is no longer able to be corrected, hence is reliable. As you have noted, there are very few Koehler method trained dogs around these days so it would be hard to compare, but the ones I have seen do not have perfect recalls and still require training throughout their life. We know a lot about the laws of learning and Koehler method cannot clam any greater reliability or less reliance on reward and punishment than any other method.

A nice video, but it really does surprise me that you can claim that that dog still in training is reliable. The dog will be trained and reliable when she can put away the food and get the same behavior. As I said, to me, what I am seeing is a dog being trained, not a fully trained reliable dog. Can you find a video of a Koehler method trained dog exhibiting a reliable recall? I have no doubt such dogs exist but it's odd that it's so hard to find a video. Not that it really matters, I've seen a few in person and they aren't any more reliable than this dog or any less "fully trained". The tools for reinforcement are just different.

Thanks Rappie. Everything in her bloods came back normal except calcium. I had them check her anal glands four times. So there are a lot of 'mights' and 'cans' in your post. In the absence of any of those things do you think it's worth pushing the idea with my vet based purely on lack of diagnosis and presentation of symptoms? I'm not worried about looking neurotic, if that helps

Someone had some really long videos on YouTube (I think), worth a search. Blissful. It is. When you watch a good dog patrolling a graze or the road you realise the completely different work styles. Beside the GSDs we have a very promising Belgian training at the moment I love how in the tests (well, in the training for the tests, it's a bit more demarcated in the tests), one minute they are gracefully patrolling the furrow while the sheep peacefully graze. Then they go off and bite a dude while he cracks the schlagstock, then they just go back to to trotting along the furrow keeping the sheep calm and contained Reminds me so much of my own dog in my suburban backyard in a funny way.

Someone had some really long videos on YouTube (I think), worth a search. Blissful.

How has that worked out for you, Falcor?

You sound familiar. I'll make an open admission, my old boy who recently passed away at 11 due to cancer only ever wore a leash crossing the main rd. Illegal, possibly stupid, but that's what we did. I took him to a seminar with dozens of dogs and people (who will happily verify) and left him in a down-stay while I walked to the next building to use the bathroom. I didn't ever proof him to anywhere near that level, he just loved doing stuff for me and with me. We would hike every weekend for hours, including into the evening, where he would like to hunt but would always return to my call (except one time, that sucked, but I found him again, injured). So I'm pretty confident in my training system. I also walk my severely DA dog through off-leash areas every night without incident. These are pretty good tests of reliability I reckon. But sure, no doubt there are some Koehler trainers out there getting similar results. They just aren't so common these days.

We recently lost our lovely old boy to cancer. Very shortly after that, our GSD (turning 10 in Jan) became quite sick. Loss of appetite, some vomiting, lethargy, stiffness, drinking over 4L of water per day, hunched or tucked over in the back end, some tremors and clumsiness, and generally depressed. I took her in for tests, which included urine, blood, ultrasound with a specialist and x-rays. The blood test revealed high calcium, and again a few days later (I had her tested again). The x-rays revealed quite advanced bone growths in her spine, so she is probably in a lot of pain. After a shot of methodone and some Rimadyl, she picked up very quickly. Her appetite didn't recover very well, and I've not been able to walk her for very long, but the excessive drinking slowed down and she seemed brighter. Then she started to go downhill again, and went off her food for a couple of days. I gave her some Rimadyl on Sunday morning, but then she didn't eat. Later that evening she vomited bile. I took her to the vet yesterday and he did a thorough examination, gave her some Metacam and a shot of antibiotics, told me to fast her for 24 hours then resume Rimadyl plus a course of antibiotics. I tried to feed her tonight and she turned her nose up at the usual things. She had thrown up earlier several times,then went looking for cat food (bypassing the dry food, she was looking for canned food). I got her a can of cat food and she ate a little, I also hand-fed her some raw lamb liver. She would take the softest bits if I cut them up into small pieces, but if she had to chew she would spit them out and leave them. She seemed otherwise quite keen, and after a while she ate some cooked beef that I had left near her bed earlier. I will give her a thorough dental exam tomorrow with daylight. I had noticed a little blood near her bed in the morning. But now I'm wondering, with the full blood panel would something not show up that would suggest an ACTH challenge test for Addisons? Or might something come up that would rule it out? We don't really have a diagnosis. It could be all sorts of things. It's the fact that it flared up so soon after losing Django that concerns me, suggesting some possibility that it's stress related. Her behavioural history is also interesting. She began life quite normal and sociable, then she would go through periods of quite severe aggression and anxiety. Then she would settle down again, until something set her off again. These periods lasted a few weeks at a time. Sorry if this is really poorly written, I'm kind of just throwing it all out there to see what comes back. I guess what I really want to know is: 1. is there something in a full blood panel that would rule out Addisons? 2. is there something in a full blood panel (that didn't show up), that would suggest we should run an ACTH challenge? I do trust the vets I normally see, however, I've not been able to see my normal vets. They have been consulted and kept informed by the vets that I did see (in the same practice).

My GSD gets a lot of this from sun exposure, but there are other symptoms present (notably a black "stain", some redness, and some very minor pitting). It is well controlled with Predniferone and Tacrolimus. Your dogs eye looks otherwise clear apart from the gunk, but it's worth noting in case something develops.

Not if the dog has something more fun to do. Choice is a motivator in behaviour, but this really isn't an issue with good quality training. Yes, we need to control the environment (regardless of the training employed) but once we have a fluent behaviour under stimulus control "something more fun" is no longer an issue. "Something more fun" is not an issue exclusive to positive reinforcement training either. Koehler training tightly controls the environment with the use of long line training and collar corrections.

Now we have established that, we shouldn't have a problem with Koehler then, case solved :D Crikey, it's a long bow to draw if you're comparing Ellis, Balabanov, or even Kollenberg with Koehler The video shown earlier is exactly what I was first taught. You'll never see a duller, less inspiring bunch of dogs than those trained that way. Just about anyone who was actually getting anywhere was doing something different. Reliable? Sure, if you don't mind waiting while the dog cringes it's way into position.

Who is talking about training entirely without corrections? Michael Ellis certainly isn't.

If something is "rewarding to the dog", it really doesn't matter what you or I may want to call it. But it does, you are forgetting classical conditioning. Emotionality and self-control come into it, very much so.

Negative reinforcement: removal of something (adversive) which reinforces behavior tending to make it repeat. Yes, it's really the most useful part of correction. Some behaviourists even make a convincing argument that punishment doesn't really exist, it's really just reinforcement of something other than the punished response. We would never refer to negative reinforcement as 'rewarding' even when using layperson's terms although similar regions of the brain can show activity. A lot of Koehler style training relies on negative reinforcement. Even praise can become a conditioned negative reinforcer - "Good boy (the correction will not be forthcoming)". This is something really interesting - even a reduction in the frequency of really poorly time corrections can be reinforcing! Sidman designed a procedure where mild shocks were given at steady intervals, not for anything the animal actually did, just on a timer. Then, when the animal performed some behaviour, he would earn a reprieve from the shocks. This would reinforce the target behaviour. Not really what we would consider a reward though.