SpecTraining

I missed your post Kavik, perfectly written and says everything I needed to explain, thankyou

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another.

Yet that is exactly what you did do. No Aidan, I didn't name you or anyone else as inferior trainers and don't intend to. I said that trainers who use halti's and harnessess and refuse to perform a physical correction training working breeds make a difference to the dog's behavior and some not too bad, but the best I have seen, (bearing in mind, I haven't seen them all as you haven't seen all of them trained in opposing methods), haven't resulted in a behaviour I would call reliable. Everyone as I mentioned before will have a different definition of reliability. What you may define as wonderful behaviour for me may be mediocre and vice versa. When ultimate reliability is required in a working dog, very few if any are trained on halti's, harnessess without ever experiencing a physical correction.

Funny that you completely ignore the part where I mentioned a guy hanging his own dog on a lead and it taking a piece out of him. Guess it wouldn't be as easy to be snarky if you actually replied to everything huh ? Woops! Great post. People can't have it both ways - a lot of GSD fanciers would be suprised and upset that aggression was considered "normal" and "typical" of their breed? Next time someone posts "Is a GSD right for me?" or similar they should get directed to this thread? Reading the breed standard - and not being a show/breeder type person I'm not an expert on these things - aggression of any kind would be a fault, certainly not normal? Even for a working dog, "aggression" needs to be controlled and not "I'm gunno kill the next fluffy that walks past"? The OP is seeing a behaviourist, that is great. Behaviourists aren't luxuries when dealing with aggression. The only sound advice while waiting to see one is to muzzle the dog or keep them on your own property 24/7. Anything else can end in tears (usually for the smaller dog). Poodlefan - some people seem to be very hung up on the fact that you own - gasp - poodles. They can't seem to look beyond that and listen to your advice. Maybe a change in name is required? GSDLover, RottieLady or something similar? Maybe then they can look past their prejudices and read the advice for what it is . Just like I have labradors, so obviously I can't handle a "real dog" ;D! I second the name change Poodlefan, you need something more hardcore obviously. Like "FullySIckDOgFigHTERss!!" And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit. Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought. I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result. I Have seen GSDs shut down as result of a correction. Friend of mine took his boy Lobo into a GSD training class. Lobo was so anti check chain that he would flat out shut down. Refuse to move, cower, ect. He started from the beginning on a normal flat collar now has a great dog. Excuse me, are you saying that some of the trainers on this thread are incapable of working with GSDs on the basis of tools they may or may not use depending on the individual dog and/or client? OK, I sometimes use harnesses. Are you saying that I am incompetent with GSDs because of this and that I misrepresent myself as a trainer? Have you got any evidence to prove this? I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so. You are welcome to use a harness if you like them or any other tools and methods you wish to use. The people that do train GSD's on halti's, harnessess and refuse to physically correct them as I mentioned, I am yet to see these training methods and tools produce a dog that I consider has good, relaible behaviour. But what you consider good and what I may expect could be a competely different thing we are focusing on. I have seen some excellent harness work whilst it is on the dog. That's no good for me needing a dog to work off leash for example. Garry Mentioned previously, we've always had GSDs until our current dogs. Never used any sort of check chain, just regular flat collar and lead. Great dogs, perfect heel, perfect recall, would stay happily on their mats all day. Could be eating a raw meaty bone and any child/person/dog/animal in the world could come up and take it off them. Our cat would go and pin them down for an ear cleaning. GSDs we owned before that, recall was so good they could be in full flight after a rabbit, one word and they would spin and return. Dad taught them to leap the 6 metre fence out back (this is 15 or so years ago mind you) and one day they leaped over it, to go and greet our neighbour (little old lady) coming home with her shopping. She gave them both a pat, and sent them home over the fence. Never had any problems with aggression, never had issues with small dogs. We used to have my sister in laws Pug come over and play with our guys, they loved it. I think saying that someone can't train a GSD without physical correction shows your ignorance. Same as believing that because the GSD are used as working dogs means that EVERY GSD could be a working dog is ridiculous. Geez, if only I could find GSD's like yours today, unfortunately GSD's of the level of perfection you have described are rather thin on the ground now. I assume they were also protection trained to complete the total package???

It's a little more than that here. People are saying that one of the techniques being promoted is too potentially dangerous to recommend without direct knowledge of the dog and handler involved. OK as an emergency control measure in a crisis maybe, but grossly irresponsible to recommend as a training technique sight unseen. They are saying the advice could get the handler or the dog seriously hurt. And that is more than a disagreement over technique, that's a disagreement over duty of care and personal responsibility. The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypical in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, by GSD trainers only and again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed. I don't buy that last argument, but it's the most convincing damn argument for restrictions on the ownership of a particular breed I have heard for a long time, given that it comes from people claiming decades of breed experience. I'm saddened that a breed community that has been through that once isn't more careful in how it presents itself. The GSD is a guardian breed and yes aggressive traits necessary to fulfil such a role do surface. The problem is, traits of aggression are often not talked about and even a breeder who has lovely dogs behave that way because they have the experience to raise, train and handle them properly and make a nice pet out of them. Give the same dog as a pup to an inexperienced owner who doesn't realise that certain behaviours need to be nipped in the bud to shape the dog into a pet home, the same dog can be a total nightmare for the inexperienced where the same dog for an experinced home would be dream pet.

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit. Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought. I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result. It would have been clearer if you had written this instead ;) I will try and improve my clarity............G

Excuse me, are you saying that some of the trainers on this thread are incapable of working with GSDs on the basis of tools they may or may not use depending on the individual dog and/or client? OK, I sometimes use harnesses. Are you saying that I am incompetent with GSDs because of this and that I misrepresent myself as a trainer? Have you got any evidence to prove this? I can't comment on others capablilities here Aidan having never seen their work and would be wrong of me to do so. You are welcome to use a harness if you like them or any other tools and methods you wish to use. The people that do train GSD's on halti's, harnessess and refuse to physically correct them as I mentioned, I am yet to see these training methods and tools produce a dog that I consider has good, relaible behaviour. But what you consider good and what I may expect could be a competely different thing we are focusing on. I have seen some excellent harness work whilst it is on the dog. That's no good for me needing a dog to work off leash for example. Garry

I have explained that in my previous post.

And there's a very good chance he'd not have made the grade. I live next door to the head of a police dog team and I know how many dogs they look at before they find one that will suit. Lots of GSD's lack the nerve and drive and soundness to work for a living. This is not news to anyone I thought. I made that comment to highlight that the dog is a working breed and "may" have working traits which many do. Often people believe because a working breed is purchased for a pet, that working traits will be non existant which is not true and often leads IMHO to incorrect training techniques. I have seen many pet trainers refuse to leash correct a GSD because they had a Golden Retriever shut down from a correction using the basis that the GSD being a pet shouldn't need a leash correction, or because it is a pet, it will shut down as a result.

RockDog, When selecting a trainer this thought may help your decision: Rocky you bought for a pet and a fine pet he should make, but Rocky is also a working breed and if you hadn't have bought Rocky, he could quite easily have been purchased by the police to live a working dog life. A good GSD which you have mentioned came from a respected breeder, there is every chance that Rocky has the drive and traits to be trained for anything you want a GSD to be from a loyal pet to a protection dog and anything in between. Sure a dog is a dog, like a car is a car, but you don't take your Toyota to a Ford dealer or the local mechanic for the best opportunity to have a serious problem diagnosed and fixed properly and the same applies with your dog. IMHO, Rocky needs a working dog mechanic for the best opportunity to sort him out and working dog mechanics for the purpose of this post, don't use halti's and harnessess and refuse physical corrections. The dog mechanics who do use these tools will get you back on the road to limp home, but they won't fix your dog to the original performance that the breed is capable of. Have a think about it???? Garry

well obviously, like any dog..... You can't determine the type and cause of the aggression just based on breed alone though. You kept talking about "working" and police handlers so I thought that you were under the impression the dog was working line? Though I realise that the dog may have potential for that sort of thing? is that what you were getting at? Yes. I was referring to people saying that no way can anyone determine aggressive reponses without seeing the dog. Essentially you can't be completely sure of course not, but the behaviour of the OP's dog is very consistant with a young dog having working drives with the behaviour being allowed to escalate. Experienced working dog owners watch for this behaviour as a pup and train them out of the behaviour early to become a relaible pet. It's not uncommon for first time GSD owners to overlook which appears as a playful puppy wrestle and can turn into a dog who likes to fight and looks for a fight very easily. Many breeders will ask puppy buyers if they have had GSD's before especially if their bloodlines have working drives and is what they are talking about. It's how a good breeder will choose a more submissive or quieter puppy for an inexperienced owner.

It's a bit hypocritical IMO. Malsrock has just argued in another thread that there is a massive difference between WL GSDs and SL GSDs, yet here we are saying that no - a SL is still a working dog In an emergency situation I would do anything to keep my dog safe and keep other people/dogs safe but I don't see why air blocking should ever be the first choice training method for ANY dog. Plenty of showline's around that can work and are still used by the police. There is more "chance" of obtaining a working line dog than a showline that can work, but I suppose it depends upon what sort of work you need it for??

I actually joined a month ago and popped in today for a read, this thread I found interesting and I decided to make a post for two reasons. 1. I thought it was good advice for people to express concern that Fiona had advised an inexperienced owner of a blocking technique that has the potential to go wrong if carried out incorrectly which is my advice also on a pet dog forum. 2. There is a difference between flaming someone for what she did as I mentioned above, but to flame the method she advised is what prompted me to post. Air blocking in the training of working dogs is common practice and for a person with years of working dog experience the method is not outrageous to them as the pet owners and trainers invisage. However, people do as the OP has along with many others choose working dogs for pets which often come with behavioural challenges that the average pet owner lacking experience with these dogs can't handle. Ultimately yes, a trainer needs to see the dog to make an accurate assessment of behaviour and some posted outrage how Fiona must be off the planet to make an assessment without seeing the dog. The behaviour of the OP's dog is common for a young GSD that has working potential and they often behave in exactly that manner and worse when not conditioned to avoid this escalation from a pup. This dog could be just as well at home on the end of a police officers leash as it is on the OP's couch, it is a GSD, a working dog after all. How a pet dog trainer and a working dog trainer may view a situation in the same dog and behaviour can be miles apart and at different ends of the spectrum is all that I wanted to point out. There is no cavalry involved at all, I agree that the method of correction was not the place here to recommend it, but from a working dog mentality I understand where the suggestion is coming from Pretty much every person who "flamed" Fiona, stated they did not have problem with the methodology itself, but rather the fact that she would recommend it: 1. on a dog she hasn't seen and assessed 2. to an insufficiently experienced person What is the point of putting such ideas into a persons head, who is clearly not a working dog handler or expereinced dog trainer? What is even worse, was that she didn't even bother to get all the details (eg the dog being walked on a halti, not a collar) and had the OP actually tried the suggested method, injury to handler and / or dog may have occured. Thankfully the OP was sensible enough not to take on board this particular piece of advice. Regarding your comments about GSDs, I don't think the OP ever said the dog was working line? The GSD is an all rounder and should make a perfectly suitable family pet. I rather think the issue is with the dog being attacked/annoyed by the other dog (spongey) rather than a breed specific thing. I guess they don't realise how inexperienced a new pet owner can be perhaps, hence my original post????. GSD's don't have to be working line dogs to exhibit aggressive behaviour especially if it has been allowed to escalate

But the dog is not a working dog. It is a pet dog owned by a new pet owner. This is not the first time "Fiona" has recommended air blocking as the first and only training method, not in emergencies, just because she thinks it will work. And she's recommended it be used on small low drive dogs. How on earth is that necessary? Although the dog lives in a pet home, it still carries working traits is what I mean and some of those traits as a pet can be a handful to manange for a new pet owner until gaining experience how to train and manage it. I don't know how air blocking would work on small dogs, as they don't present the challenge to physically restrain them as a big powerful dog does, and have never tried it to be honest. Air blocking something I use with unpredicatable dog's that have an occasional unexpected lunge out of the blue and generally works well in those cases. A predictable dog, I prefer to use distance where they don't lunge and build their confidence to lessen the distance as you go and the dog learns how to handle the stress of a once reactive target. Throwing a dog in the deep end to purposely lunge to perform an air block is not what I would consider effective training, no.

I actually joined a month ago and popped in today for a read, this thread I found interesting and I decided to make a post for two reasons. 1. I thought it was good advice for people to express concern that Fiona had advised an inexperienced owner of a blocking technique that has the potential to go wrong if carried out incorrectly which is my advice also on a pet dog forum. 2. There is a difference between flaming someone for what she did as I mentioned above, but to flame the method she advised is what prompted me to post. Air blocking in the training of working dogs is common practice and for a person with years of working dog experience the method is not outrageous to them as the pet owners and trainers invisage. However, people do as the OP has along with many others choose working dogs for pets which often come with behavioural challenges that the average pet owner lacking experience with these dogs can't handle. Ultimately yes, a trainer needs to see the dog to make an accurate assessment of behaviour and some posted outrage how Fiona must be off the planet to make an assessment without seeing the dog. The behaviour of the OP's dog is common for a young GSD that has working potential and they often behave in exactly that manner and worse when not conditioned to avoid this escalation from a pup. This dog could be just as well at home on the end of a police officers leash as it is on the OP's couch, it is a GSD, a working dog after all. How a pet dog trainer and a working dog trainer may view a situation in the same dog and behaviour can be miles apart and at different ends of the spectrum is all that I wanted to point out. There is no cavalry involved at all, I agree that the method of correction was not the place here to recommend it, but from a working dog mentality I understand where the suggestion is coming from

Well Garry (such a coincidence you've only just joined, and your first post is defending Fiona?) I certainly wouldn't let someone like Fiona, who thinks she can analyse a dog and give appropriate advice for aggression over the Internet, anywhere near my dogs or any of my friends dogs. Since lets see, my friends GSD who suddenly started becoming very snappy and growling at dogs and people. I'm sure she would have just slipped a check chain on him and gone to work "air blocking" the crap out of that dog. Oh but woops that the dog actually have a tumour growing on his spine, which when removed he went straight back to his loveable self. Obviously you don't need to ask any questions though. If someone asks for advice on stopping an aggressive dog, just choke them right? Not sure I understand the bolded comment, you have lost me on that one, but what I can say from my experience, is that some experienced working dog handlers and trainers are very handy with aggression issues as most work with it on a daily basis. I have on many occasions seen a good police or security dog handler who are not specifically trainers as such, make dramatic improvements in pet GSD's, Rott's etc displaying aggressive behaviour where behaviourist trainers have failed. Not every recognised behaviourist or trainer are good at dealing with aggression issues although some try their best are still in the learning phase themselves often. People shouldn't necessarily believe in all cases that because someone promotes themselves as a behaviourist or trainer that they are experienced and competent at dealing with all areas of aggression, some are not. As far as Fiona's comments are concerned, I don't think her methods should be recommended over a pet dog forum, but her methodology IMHO is not necessarily wrong either. In some cases often in young dogs such a correction can work exceptionally well, others perhaps not. There has also been many dogs diagnosed as untrainable and uncontrollable due to aggression with euthanasia recommended that have been retrained successfully using the methods that Fiona suggested and given a second chance at life. Although those methods are not right for every aggressive dog, for some they well may be the best option.

Very diplomatic of you Garry. Given that Fiona assured us she had this situation sorted based only on the dog's breed and a few paragraphs from the owner, I'd not let her darken my driveway anytime soon. I took my dog to see someone who spent quite a bit of tiime observing it and talking to me about him before even venturing out to the training field. Anyone who'd give advice without taking a full history is someone I'd not recommend to anyone, REGARDLESS of the training method they use I don't care how much experience a trainer has if they're prepared to start "correcting" my dog when they don't know a damn thing about it. For example, I'd say its relevant if the dog has a congenital malformation in the vertebrae of the neck. Wouldn't you? Yes and no, Poodlefan. People that only train and handle working dogs as Fiona mentioned 20 years, she would have some "feel" for the situation I am sure, but I doubt any trainer would pick up on vertebrae malformation without a vet clearance unless it was blatently obvious in the dog's movements or the owner knew of the condition to pass onto the trainer for consideration what training tools may be used. Essentially, it's best for a trainer to check the dog over before commencing for sure, I agree. I think some trainers are better with certain dogs or breeds and behaviours where I have seen working dog trainers shut down and ruin docile submissive dogs, and on the other hand have seen trainers who are excellent with the more docile dogs get bitten by a redirection from a working dog or really struggle with them. There are so many different types of dogs and behaviours out there, all though they have 4 legs and most have a tail, there is always a challenge somewhere awaiting and a new experience to be had.

Hey Malsrock (Fiona), There is no doubt whatsoever reading your posts that you are an experienced working dog handler and I would imagine a good one too. I agree with air blocking in these situations IMHO would more than likely be the fastest approach to correct the dogs behaviour where other methods in comparison would present a longer road ahead which I indeed think is true. What you haven't taken into account with your advice Fiona which others have raised, is that your "basic" experience is so far above that of the average pet owner especially an inexperienced one, that a specialised air blocking technique is not something that just any pet owner will master easily and would need you to personally instruct them step by step standing by their side to create their confidence to master the technique correctly which CANNOT be done effectively over an internet forum in this instance. I agree on a working dog forum discussing issues and sharing training advice is done regularly and successfully over the internet because the people on those forums with working dogs have attained a high level of basic handler experience to communicate on a more level field of understanding, but the pet owner as in this case is struggling with a GSD on a halti which presents a massive difference in experience levels between your capabilities and theirs. With regard to the dog redirecting aggression towards the owner from an air blocking technique given it's age and what the OP has described in behaviour I would say not, but it's possible, and counteracting a redirection if it did would be way beyond an inexperienced owners capabilities IMHO to contend with. In the owners shoes, to have someone with Fiona's experience walking up the driveway to help train your dog and teach you how to handle it properly would be godsend relief, she's definitely a good candidate to achieve a great result, but again I say, not over the internet, and in person only. Not having a go Fiona, just two cents worth of constuctive discussion Garry