SpecTraining

Not too many people overpower a trained protection dog easily by hand. Seems the dog may have been accustom to target legs in bitework training perhaps, leaving the offenders arms free???

Me too, and in every one so far I have preferred the working dog over the show one. What I don't understand is what happened at the transition point where people showed a different look to the original working dog. How could this different look which is quite dramatic in Poodlefan's example pictures be awarded show wins instead of being sent home for exhibiting a dog of altered compliance

Breeders will breed the type of dog that has the most potential for show wins if they breed for shows. The question is, why are dogs winning shows when altered from the original breed standard when in fact they shouldn't be. Are breeders at fault or the show judges???. An example would be a GSD specialty show. How can a Shutzhund titled imported dog loose to a local dog that isn't work tested and confirmed it is bred to correct type???. IMHO, all the work titled dogs should fill the top placings before any untitled dogs are looked at in a working dog category show.

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Workingline GSD's are rarely the traditional tan with black saddle markings. Many are pure black, sable, tan with black blanket, all black with tan legs, most are very dark faced along with a straighter back conformation often slightly smaller in the head and face.

I don't know if it's a bad thing or not and I didn't make that judgement. Obviously it would be bad to "throw her in the deep end". And honestly, gentle collar corrections are often not particularly effective so I would usually aim to prevent access to the sniffy stuff (although my dogs are allowed to sniff, just not pull). If you have a dog who is quite responsive and you can just give a little jiggle it's actually more gentle than, say, the "penalty yards" approach of backing up which usually needs to be quite firm. Throwing dogs in the deep end too quickly I think is a common mistake by many dog owners Aidan. A green dog/puppy taken for a walk the first few times with massive distractions it can't cope with, the dog will be all over the place with 101 unwanted behaviours I have found, then comes where to start reshaping the behaviour and many owners work on a behaviour that should possibly be perhaps behaviour No. 10 to address. The dog has missed the first 9 behavioural steps and the owner has jumped straight to behaviour 10 and the dog lacks the foundation work to fix behaviour 10 properly.........does this make sense??? Garry I understand what you are saying, but the dog in question is 6 months old and corrections on started after she had already been walking on the lead reasonably well for 2-3 months. She did respond to voice commands eg. leave it, forward etc but these, even with a reward did not stop the behaviour, only manage it when it did happen. The trainer suggested to use corrections to let the dog know that that sort od behaviour was just not on anytime. Since using this method, the dog has not attempted to sniff inappropriately as frequently. I personally find that adding a correction along with positive reinforcement provides the best results for most dogs. The level of correction to suit the individual dog is the important factor I think.

I don't know if it's a bad thing or not and I didn't make that judgement. Obviously it would be bad to "throw her in the deep end". And honestly, gentle collar corrections are often not particularly effective so I would usually aim to prevent access to the sniffy stuff (although my dogs are allowed to sniff, just not pull). If you have a dog who is quite responsive and you can just give a little jiggle it's actually more gentle than, say, the "penalty yards" approach of backing up which usually needs to be quite firm. Throwing dogs in the deep end too quickly I think is a common mistake by many dog owners Aidan. A green dog/puppy taken for a walk the first few times with massive distractions it can't cope with, the dog will be all over the place with 101 unwanted behaviours I have found, then comes where to start reshaping the behaviour and many owners work on a behaviour that should possibly be perhaps behaviour No. 10 to address. The dog has missed the first 9 behavioural steps and the owner has jumped straight to behaviour 10 and the dog lacks the foundation work to fix behaviour 10 properly.........does this make sense??? Garry

Although I totally agree this is happening, but I don't conclude it's competely a "showline" issue but more the result of breeding the wrong dogs to maintain the correct working traits.

ARe you saying Rotties, dobes etc ARE that way or they aren't from birth? Just curious - not having a dig. They are not born as fully trained personal protection dogs. Those that pretend they are are most likely not stable enough and to reactive to be placid family pets. Im not saying that a working dog cant be a family pet, but there are plenty of people there looking for their first dog and getting a working line one, they read about sharpness and calm deep full mouth grips and want one. Usually for wrong reasons and usually with no knowledge on how to bring up such dog. Traits of pronounced sharpness do make a natural protector as dogs of this nature are generally stranger aggressive and territorial. I have a client with actually a showline GSD who operates a factory on nightshift and takes the dog to work for security. The dog's behaviour as a pet towards it's own is no different than would be expected with any other pet, loyal, trustworthy and affectionate, but is a difficult dog to handle being highly stranger reactive. This type of dog does work well as a property guard without training, but as a personal protection dog worked with a handler is too reactive which presents a training challenge to control the dog in all circumstances.

Out of interest, I have seen this exact photo for two different dogs........... BTW when was Fax V rated? That's the photo off the database for Fax???. I have seen two ratings on him in different articles, definitely Kkl1 though.

Here is a nice V rated workingline dog, one of good conformation imported into Australia. Fax vom Grezganger SchH3

I dissagree with this statment. They are talked about A LOT. Id say second to pitbulls. Especailly show v's working lines debates, or about their structure, and often about hips and other hereditary stuff. I have found in the pet market many people who purchase a GSD for a pet expect a typical Golden Retriever type personality and disposition and are quite distressed when their dog doesn't act as a social butterfly and love everyone. When these people often ask around and question why their GSD is aloof and unfriendly to strangers for example, they are often misled that the behaviour is unheard of in a pet quality or showline GSD which is untrue. What I am saying is, aloofness, unfriendliness and aggressive traits are often watered down to give a softer impression of the GSD temperament. Interesting as most of the working line GSD that I know personally are not aloof or unfriendly towards people when they are not working One of the reasons I got my boy was because the breeders dogs (many of whom work actively in the security industry) were social with both dogs and people. Quite smoochy actually. Temeprament was VERY important to me as my older Kelpie X is a bit nervous, skittish and is aggressive towards other dogs. Didn't need to go through that again! These dogs could be handled by many people including the owner's children, and by me (whom they saw once a week at training when I instructed obedience with them). OK so my boy has some health issues (which none of the breeders other dogs do, so probably just bad luck) and maybe not the best competition prospect but he is a lovely sweet smoochy boy. He got to meet a new GSD girlfriend yesterday on our walk too Though he has the attention span of a gnat at times, I was glad that our biggest issue with stand for exam in obedience was that he would try to lean on the examiner to get pats :rolleyes: More so in the last 5 years, I have found the working line GSD's that have the best traits in protection work tend to be more aloof now than some I remember from years ago. The nicer one's generally seem to lack nerve under working pressure, ok in sport, but lack in civil fighting drive.

Just wondering, why would you use this only on a predictable dog? If you know the target that makes the dog react and you know what your dog looks like when calm as opposed to a very subtle change when loading up, couldn't you do this with an unpredictable dog? Unpredictable being a dog that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as opposed to one that has learned not to give a warning. Having said this I have never seen/handled a dog that hasn't at least had soft eyes go hard before reacting, even though it was done in what seemed like a nanosecond. cheers M-J I was thinking unpredictable as a dog that shows intermittant reaction to a similar stimulus. A dog that is fine most of the time then flies off the handle out of the blue. Predictable I was thinking predictably reactive, flies off at every dog every time it see's one. Hope this makes more sense Thanks yes it does. So the dog's reaction is intermittant, do you feel that the critical distance training can still be used if the signs the dog is going to react are consistant, although short/subtle, even if the stimulus isn't always blatantly obvious/consistant? I do feel if the dog showed these signs the distance would have been breached, which would be counterproductive to the training. cheers M-J Yes, you are correct M-J I agree. The intermittant reactor is quite a challenging behaviour where watching for change in body language is critical. They usually react when your confident they won't though, and miss it half the time :rolleyes:

And my point is there are plenty of GSDs who aren't cut out to 'work' owned by people who'd never be able to 'work' them. So advocating that the same methods be used isn't particularly helpful for a 5'1'' pet dog owner with chronic back pain, nor for a lot of other folk. She doesn't need her pet to be as 'reliable' as a working dog. She needs a dog she can walk safely without endangering other dogs or people. You've already provided an excellent description of how desenstisation can be sometimes be used to produce the same result as stringing up. For THIS dog owner which do you think is the more viable option? Given the OP's stature and taking her back pain into consideration I would use a prong collar as I wouldn't be confident that any other tool will provide enough retardation in the dog's actions for her situation. The methods of training would be primarily the same with greater conditioning. I would like to see the overall obedience of the dog to see where it's at now. Ok, it has an aggression issue, but does it walk on a loose leash without distraction, is it fundamentally sound except the aggressive reactions that we don't know???

My point, I suppose was to question the usefulness of discussing training a working dog in a thread started by a pet owner to discuss dog aggression. All GSDs are not working dogs and nor are all of them suitable to be. I wonder if this had been a Labrador, if the subject of working dog training would even have come up. The issue of producing reliability in a working dog is irrelevent to the issues raised here. The comparison simply doesn't fly IMO. This dog is not a working dog and more to the point, it doesn't have a working dog handler. A GSD is a working dog (breed) regardless of living in a pet or working home. If particular methods of training produce the best reliability in a working role where reliability is crucial, the same methods applied to a pet will produce the same reliability which is very relevent to this thread as reliable pets are fantastic and and a joy to live with, don't you think??? Why have a half reliable dog when you can have really reliable dog is my point???

Has she always been ok on the move, or did she used to be a bit reactive on the move intially???

Just wondering, why would you use this only on a predictable dog? If you know the target that makes the dog react and you know what your dog looks like when calm as opposed to a very subtle change when loading up, couldn't you do this with an unpredictable dog? Unpredictable being a dog that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't as opposed to one that has learned not to give a warning. Having said this I have never seen/handled a dog that hasn't at least had soft eyes go hard before reacting, even though it was done in what seemed like a nanosecond. cheers M-J I was thinking unpredictable as a dog that shows intermittant reaction to a similar stimulus. A dog that is fine most of the time then flies off the handle out of the blue. Predictable I was thinking predictably reactive, flies off at every dog every time it see's one. Hope this makes more sense :rolleyes:

[/b]We aren't talking about a working dog.We are talking about pet dog. A pet dog with aggression issues that no one giving advice on this forum had seen. And most of us had to good sense to tailor advice in the direction of muzzles, separation from other dogs and consulting a professional for help. Most, but not the "GSD expert" who knew what had to be done based solely on the dogs breed. That's when I posted asking the "GSD expert" not give advice based on assumptions about dogs and handlers and it went from there. My credentials were questioned, the GSD cavalry arrived and poor Rock Dog got a sore brain. A good dog trainer gathers information about the dog, its behaviour and its owner before coming up with a method. It doesn't matter if you're training GSDs or poodles, using check chains or clickers, no one with any sense of responsibility gives advice that's potentially dangerous. And all but one person in this thread appeared to acknowledge that. Can I ask what your post has to do with a response highlighting halti and harness reliability???. You won't get an argument from me supporting advanced training techniques recommended to inexperienced handlers on a pet forum. My first post on this topic mentioned that Poodlefan, what is your point :rolleyes:

I dissagree with this statment. They are talked about A LOT. Id say second to pitbulls. Especailly show v's working lines debates, or about their structure, and often about hips and other hereditary stuff. I have found in the pet market many people who purchase a GSD for a pet expect a typical Golden Retriever type personality and disposition and are quite distressed when their dog doesn't act as a social butterfly and love everyone. When these people often ask around and question why their GSD is aloof and unfriendly to strangers for example, they are often misled that the behaviour is unheard of in a pet quality or showline GSD which is untrue. What I am saying is, aloofness, unfriendliness and aggressive traits are often watered down to give a softer impression of the GSD temperament.

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another. Crap I better return both my labradors then! Neither of them retrieve!! Oh wait, thats because they aren't from working dog lines, they're from guide dog lines. Just like my GSDs weren't from working dog lines, they where from show dog lines. Bred to be family pets and show dogs. No, that's not quite right, show dogs are supposed to be Schutzhund titled when bred by the book which is a working test to determine the correct traits. The difference is, though they may have had the potential for protection work, that is not what they where bred for, or purchased for. They never showed any sort of aggressive traits because they where fantastic dogs that where placed in the perfect home What exactly is the point you're trying to make? Other than adding the GSD to the BSL by constantly telling people they are supposed to be aggressive and its "the norm"? Heck Pitbulls are the least human aggressive dog around and they're on there, keep it up and I'm sure you new goal will be reached! It doesn't matter what they were bred and purchased for, if they are GSD's they will have "some" working traits at "some" level is the point I am making. If they have working traits prey drive perhaps, chase and catch with a hard bite, or reactive sharpness etc that is not an ideal trait for a pet when allowed to escalate in the wrong directions, there becomes a behaviour issue and handling problem with the dog and occurs more with first time GSD owners or first time dog owners who purchase GSD's. BSL and dangerous dog laws is the reason why GSD traits are often hidden and not discussed which doesn't help the first time owner when having no idea what they may be in for, what to watch for as puppies and what behaviour to eliminate as they are growing up. A puppy game of latching on to the kids pants leg can escalate quickly to chasing a stranger in the park and latching on to their pants leg, then you have a dangerous dog report caused by incorrect upbringing of a working trait dog for example. The "norm" or common misbehaviour in GSD's occurs more frequently with inexperienced owners especially aggressive traits surfacing I have found. I am sure the same puppy raised in a experienced home would not demonstrate aggressive behaviour at all for the most part. There are certain behaviours that you can't afford to allow an escalation of in working breeds to mould them into a reliable pet is what I am saying.

It's a little more than that here. People are saying that one of the techniques being promoted is too potentially dangerous to recommend without direct knowledge of the dog and handler involved. OK as an emergency control measure in a crisis maybe, but grossly irresponsible to recommend as a training technique sight unseen. They are saying the advice could get the handler or the dog seriously hurt. And that is more than a disagreement over technique, that's a disagreement over duty of care and personal responsibility. The other theme I read in this thread is that GSDs are different to other breeds, that dominance and sharpness are desirable characteristics in a good GSD, and therefore only experienced GSD trainers can handle what the breed 'experts' on here see as typical GSD adolescent aggression. The message is that aggression is so common and so stereotypical in GSDs that ways to manage it can be reliably prescribed over the internet, by GSD trainers only and again sight unseen, and they need to be very forceful methods indeed. I don't buy that last argument, but it's the most convincing damn argument for restrictions on the ownership of a particular breed I have heard for a long time, given that it comes from people claiming decades of breed experience. I'm saddened that a breed community that has been through that once isn't more careful in how it presents itself. That 'theme' is absolute garbage and those who believe such garbage, especially those who have Shepherds, should be ashamed of themselves. Tin pot experts they are...nothing more nothing less . Wow!!!, that was straight to the point, nice to see some valuable input You don't have a membership form handy for the Tin Pot Experts Club Tapferhund..........sound's like fun

That is very sad to hear especially from someone wanting to become a trainer. Its worth having an open mind and learning from everyone you can even if you dont agree with everything they say. Do I want to be anywhere near someone who suggests choking a dog they have never met, to an owner they know nothing about? A dog that is walked on a halti by a small owner with a bad back... Yeah I think I'll pass.. I would suggest a prong collar as a better tool for a small owner with a bad back

Yes, absolutely. Further more to attain a Schutzhund title, the whole temperament of the dog is tested including a companion animal test (pet test) being the foundation pass required.

No they where not, because not all GSDs are made for that kind of thing I agree, they don't all turn out with the required traits for protection work, but they are supposed to if the dog complies with the breed standards in one way or another. Crap I better return both my labradors then! Neither of them retrieve!! Oh wait, thats because they aren't from working dog lines, they're from guide dog lines. Just like my GSDs weren't from working dog lines, they where from show dog lines. Bred to be family pets and show dogs. No, that's not quite right, show dogs are supposed to be Schutzhund titled when bred by the book which is a working test to determine the correct traits.

Yet that is exactly what you did do. No Aidan, I didn't name you or anyone else as inferior trainers and don't intend to. I said that trainers who use halti's and harnessess and refuse to perform a physical correction training working breeds make a difference to the dog's behavior and some not too bad, but the best I have seen, (bearing in mind, I haven't seen them all as you haven't seen all of them trained in opposing methods), haven't resulted in a behaviour I would call reliable. Everyone as I mentioned before will have a different definition of reliability. What you may define as wonderful behaviour for me may be mediocre and vice versa. When ultimate reliability is required in a working dog, very few if any are trained on halti's, harnessess without ever experiencing a physical correction. Regardless of what you had said earlier, I agree with the above. Very reliable behaviour can be obtained without corrections but rarely is for pragmatic reasons. Also, I believe there is a difference between how the dog performs in working situations vs how the dog responds to other dogs, people etc. I do not spend a great deal of time with clients building anything more than acceptable leash manners, solid recalls, and long downs (often with a tether). Apart from the recall, I require none of these to approach a competitive standard. However, the focus is on having the dog comfortable around other dogs/people rather than simply being under control (not that being under control is anything to be scoffed at). For various reasons I prefer this approach, for a start there are no surprises, for another these are not sporting dogs and their owners would like them to be able to relax and maybe even walk off-leash with other dogs (which we do achieve in many cases even with quite seriously aggressive dogs who have previously caused damage). I had one client, now a good friend, whose dog was terrified of children and had a bite history with adult men, drugged and muzzled in public. She now has two children of her own (plus nieces and nephews) and her dog is able to co-exist with them without any concerns. Whilst I'm sure that having reliable behaviour in all circumstances would help this situation, I don't consider it to be enough. There is no confidence to be gained from feigned civility. I like to be sure that the dog is actually comfortable, not just acting out of avoidance. Dogs can learn to be comfortable through avoidance, but there is no basis for objective measurement there that I know of (and I do know rather a lot about objective measurement of affective states). I hope that makes sense and illustrates some of the differences in our approaches. Please note that I have not been critical of your approach, only some of the assertions made about it (a handler cannot be bitten while hanging a dog, all young GSDs need it if they demonstrate inappropriate aggressive behaviour etc) Nice informative post Aidan, makes good sense to me appreciated, thanks