brintey

A seeing eye dog lunged and snapped at my on leash border collie as we passed on a footpath.. I was too shocked to say anything. Maybe I should have because next few times I saw the visually impaired guy around he was sans dog, so I guess something happened. A good reminder that despite their training, they are dogs!

Their Leonberger is their Great Pyrenees reversed... neither look like the breeds! :laugh:

Megan MM and I are expecting a litter of Leonberger puppies on 12 August. Repro vet says he can see definitely 6, possibly eight.

Great numbers for using frozen semen!

Just now hope she doesn't reabsorb any....

Congratulations!

thank you Trisven it has certainly been a journey, we are using imported semen for the first time! Good luck with your gorgeous Fauves too!

Megan MM and I are expecting a litter of Leonberger puppies on 12 August. Repro vet says he can see definitely 6, possibly eight.

Hi Angelsun, not a Murray River Curly Coat Retriever?

http://mrccr.org

They are a lesser known old Australian sporting breed, and kind of like the Koolie, have their own registries. I think they are trying to get recognition on the ANKC sporting registry from reading their website.

to make sure we don't get any big aggressive dogs

But small aggressive ones are OK?

I used to be able to take any of my large dogs to work if I had an urgent vet appointment after work (in a crate, in my office), however, someone brought their little dog in to work, who had 'separation anxiety and couldn't be left at home'. She seemed unable to keep her dog on a leash, in her office, or remember to take it out for toilet breaks. Being small and not confined it was constantly underfoot and several of us nearly tripped while carrying bulky objects. After that, no more dogs in the workplace for us. As usual, it only takes one inconsiderate dog owner to ruin it for everyone...

Hope it works out for you though Leah.

Hi Blanka the ones on Wednesday night at Castle Hill showground are run by Pauline Hartwell, here are her contact details: http://www.hartwynoes.com/contact.html. There are also ones run on Tuesday night but I don't have details for them sorry, if Tuesday nights suit you better you could probably show up around 7-8pm and check out the classes.

Hi Cougar, I have a five year old greyhound who is similar. Often when she wants something she will bark. If another dog is on the bed she wants, if she wants to go out to the toilet, if she doesn't want to go through the dog door but wants me to get up and open it for her. It seems like stubbornness but all she needs is vocal assurance to get over it. "Amethyst, just go through the dog door like a normal dog!" "Amethyst, get on your fluffy mat!" And she normally will do just that. I never reward her by actually making another dog move or by opening the door! I think she just likes to whinge at things which frustrate her. My girl is very sensitive and will shut down at the drop of a hat so no adversives for her.

All I've found so far Rigno is the Happy Paws rescue case.... I'll keep looking!

So it seems every case is determined on its merits in the LEC, it is not an across the board type of ruling, and every breeder would have to be prepared to defend their individual case in court.

I have yet to have a litter of my own, and won't for another year or so, so I think in my case if I can find the precedents in the case law database and take it to a solicitor who thinks I would fall into a non-commercial category if I went to court, and I did this before I had my first litter, I could in good faith reasonably assume that I had did not fall under prescribed conditions of Council and thus not be in conflict with Dogs NSW COE or any 'inspections.'

If anyone can recommend any solicitors in the Inner West or the Hills who have a background in this type of thing (I understand any solicitor will do it but I would like one who understands what dog breeding really entails - maybe someone who is a breeder themselves or a show, rescue or dog sports person?) please PM me.

Interestingly Ringo I was speaking to my sister who bred my dog, she also has a rescue organisation - and rescue is also classified as commercial under boarding kennels etc definition because money changes hands - and her Council is completely different, they actively encourage community foster carers knowing that they fall under this category.

Thanks Ringo, this is pretty much what they told me over the phone. Reverend Jo, I imagine the difference between hobby and commercial breeders was what Ringo was alluding to as being defined in the LEC case ruling?

So in my case, 'commercial' breeding is clearly not allowed in low density residential (so according to council I can't have one litter of pups every couple of years, but I can build a whole new house in my backyard or run a child-care centre!). So if I were charged by Council, I imagine I would have to challenge their definition of commercial, and (if I can ever find it!) cite the LEC case as a precedent that not all breeding is automatically considered commercial (and I would fall into that non-commercial category, which is not defined in their planning laws). At least that is my understanding.

Thanks Ringo, this is pretty much what they told me over the phone. Reverend Jo, I imagine the difference between hobby and commercial breeders was what Ringo was alluding to as being defined in the LEC case ruling?

So in my case, 'commercial' breeding is clearly not allowed in low density residential (so according to council I can't have one litter of pups every couple of years, but I can build a whole new house in my backyard or run a child-care centre!). So if I were charged by Council, I imagine I would have to challenge their definition of commercial, and (if I can ever find it!) cite the LEC case as a precedent that not all breeding is automatically considered commercial (and I would fall into that non-commercial category, which is not defined in their planning laws). At least that is my understanding.

OK Steve now I'm confused... my local council told me I had to comply to their LEP requirements BECAUSE I was classified as commercial...

So I would assume that as I'm NOT classified as commercial under the NSW LEP ruling, that I DON"T have to comply?

Should I be ringing them and asking if I need council approval for a non-commercial litter?

But they are (at least someone on it) is aware the NSWLEC has drawn a distinction between commercial breeding and breeding that is not.

The information Steve is talking about with regards to Dungog & Wollongong (?) councils appears in one form or another on most council websites. They regard the definition of commercial as one where money changes hands, even for one puppy. The Australian Tax Office has a limit on what you are able to earn from a 'hobby' before they become interested. Seems to vary to anywhere between $15,000 to $25,000 depending on who you talk to (And that is profit they are talking about) under this and they are not interested. It costs them money.

Hi Ringo - so just to be crystal clear - the NSW LEC ruling about the distinction between hobby and commercial breeding will override the local council definition of commercial breeding?

So if a hobby breeder is challenged on this by their council... they just have to quote the NSW LEC ruling?

Cheers

Brintey (a dog) not Britney (a vacuous pop star... really must change my user name!)

As has been said before yes local councils in NSW impose building codes upon development they have control over.

These are outlined in the Local Government Act (LGA) & Local Environment Plan (LEP) for each council.

Councils have been defined in the New South Wales Land & Environment Court (NSWLEC) as Consent Authorities

ie They are able to consent or not to development that comes under their control. These as I have said are outlined in the LGA and LEP.

The NSWLEC HAS drawn a distinction between '... dog boarding, breeding, training for a commercial purposes' and the same activity that is NOT for a commercial purpose. In other words they have told councils that as the dog breeding, boarding, training is NOT for a commercial purpose they do not have any control over the activities, therefore in such circumstances they cannot prohibit or allow it at their discretion as it is an activity that does not come under their control. Most councils don't like this and continue to tell people the reverse. I have even read where they have declined other development that also does not come under their control but people have not appealed the matters to the NSWLEC.

To find out these court decisions, which are binding interpretations of the legislation as the NSWLEC is able to set what is defined as case law, search for NSW Case Law, choose the Land & Environment Court from the court list and search for dog breeding. You will be able to read about developments that ended up here.

And remember the shelters you have for your dogs are not permanent structures, they are to comply with POCTA which is defined more in the Guidelines for Breeding Cats/Dogs issued by the department of primary industries and they do not change the original land use for your block of ground.

Thankyou Ringo that is very comprehensive, now I am on a real computer and not and iPad I will do some searching and look for the relevant cases to show to my council (and ease my mind!)

Do you know if DOGSNSW aware of this? At the meeting last Saturday one of the solicitors who spoke seemed to think like the council, that anyone who charged money for a puppy was defined as commercial.

My shelter for my dogs is my house which is a pretty permanent structure!

HI Corvus, the problem isn't in the Animal Welfare codes and practices itself, its in the standards which say you must have council compliance....Councils impose the kennelling restrictions and the zoning, have a look at Steve's links earlier.

So... It's no different except the council's regulations are suddenly going to be enforced?

In the issue of kennelling and zoning, yes I believe that to be the case.

I still believe the easiest way for common sense to prevail is iif we can change the definition of commercial breeder with the Land & Environment on a statewide basis then we won't have to worry about building kennels we won't use or moving house and changing jobs. How you would go about doing this I have no idea, anyone have any suggestions?

(There are of course other issues with the proposed legislation Corvus, such as the RSPCA policing DogsNSW registered breeders, which as I see it is a bit like letting the Liberal Party police the Labor party or vice versa!)

HI Corvus, the problem isn't in the Animal Welfare codes and practices itself, its in the standards which say you must have council compliance....Councils impose the kennelling restrictions and the zoning, have a look at Steve's links earlier.

What I want to know is why can't we fight the definition of commercial with the Land & Environment people on a statewide basis, we are then not lumped in with commercial breeders and boarding kennels, and none of the council restrictions from zoning to kennel blocks apply?

And to add insult to injury the NSW Land & Environment Court has already given a ruling in a matter in 2012 that in simple terms distinguished between "dog breeding, boarding, kennelling for commercial purposes" and one that was not for commercial purpose. As should be done when this bill is formulated the INTENT of the person undertaking the activity is the most important thing and was one thing the NSW LEC highlighted. To paraphrase part of the finding, '.. one would expect the same activities to be undertaken with respect to dog breeding, etc for a commercial purpose and one that was not ...'. In other words it is what your intent is with the activity and I have come across only a few people who would make money from this activity and could be deemed to be undertaking it for a commercial purpose.

One of the litigants was, surprisingly a local council trying to rectify their own error which back fired on them. The case is at time mentioned in general terms as a 'problem' by some of the parties involved in this working group and is mentioned in part of the documents made public by the working group. The problem would appear to that it has finally defined an activity they want considered as a commercial enterprise.

So worse case parts of the bill may end up being challenged in court if things turn pear shaped.

Hi Ringo, I looked up here: http://www.lec.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lec/judgments.html#Online_judgments_ to try and find the case but couldn't. Could you please let me know more details of the case so I can find it and take it to my local council? They did tell me to seek legal advice about the definition of commercial breeding so maybe they have some prior knowledge of the case already.

I read through the Animal Welfare Code of Practices for breeding dogs and cats and nowhere could I find anything which said you have to have kennel blocks... can you tell me where it is please? I must be missing it in the small print!

I did however ring my council and the planning officer was quite adamant that whether I have one breeding dog or one hundred, and whether I make any money from breeding or not, I am classified as a commercial breeder and thus must comply with the same regulations as boarding kennels. In the suburban and semi-rural part of my Shire this was strictly not zoned for and the only place I could apply would be if I lived in the rural part of the Shire (which I couldn't do and keep my city job, unless I had my own helicopter).

It seems like what we need to do is to get hobby breeding with small numbers of dogs/litters reclassified as non-commercial, we would then not fall under these council restrictions. Ringo, did you say there was a precendent for this in 2012?

I should say I don't mind being inspected, they can do it every year if they like, I can even save $300 if I know in advance the bill is coming, but they will be inspecting a suburban house not a kennel block!

A protection of Pyrs

A leap of Leonbergers

A gentleness of greyhounds

Hugs to you - what a horrible way to have ended such a lovely life.

Like Greymate and Panzer attack I am wondering if this can be reported to the RSPCA. I am not a legal brain but when this dog passed away due to negligence

http://www.news.com.au/top-stories/prison-sniffer-dog-left-to-die-horribly/story-e6frfkp9-1111114439695

the offender was charged with failing to exercise reasonable care and aggravated cruelty. Your case would seem to definitely be failing to exercise reasonable care.

OSoSwift from the way the owners of the attacking dog were carrying on afterwards, blaming everything under the sun except themselves, I would say the owners should be banned too!

But dogs like this might only attend shows for a few hours each week. What about the rest of the time? I would feel safer knowing that this dog was desexed, kept in secure housing and muzzled when out in public, not just banned from attending dog shows. Next time it might not happen when there are plenty of dog-savvy people around to stop it...

I have seen the mid-part of a full-on attack at a dog show – an amstaff broke free of its handler and went full-bore for a finnish lapphund which happened to be walking past.

I did not see the end result but I did see the amstaff after it had been hit on the head with a hammer in order to stop it attacking the lappie and its handler.

Someone told me later this amstaff was a repeat offender.

What bothers me about this level of aggression is that it is merely dealt with by DOGS NSW. If my dog was the victim of this sort of violent attack I would want it dealt with under the NSW Companion Animals Act – the dog to be neutered and kept in a childproof enclosure, and not allowed out without a muzzle.

I have a big fast-moving dog. My show trainer says to simply move to the outside of the ring and overtake the slower dog on the outside. You are not disadvantaging the slower dog because it is still the one closest to judge's line of vision and you are not disadvantaging your own dog by suddenly having to stop it or pull it up hard. When you have finished your lap just allow a big space for the slower dog to pull in in front of you in the lineup. Makes sense and works for me, particularly as the steward doesn't always allow me enough time to leave a decent gap.

The only time this has been a problem was recently in Newcastle when I had a border collie in front of me, which had a slower dog in front of it, so the border collie moved right to the outside to avoid the slower dog, and my dog, being faster than the border collie, tried to move to the outside of it, nearly a three-dog pileup LOL!

I've never had a judge split a group by speed, but given that there are fast and slow moving exhibits within each breed, how does this work?

I don't mind what others wear so much - it's up to them.

I hate: people with toy breeds who allow their dogs to bark at other dogs, particularly when there are multiple ones jammed in a trolley. I will forgive them if they tell the dogs to be quiet or make an effort to placate them, but not when they give me a dirty look for daring to walk my giant dog past them in a public area.

Have to also agree with people congregating on the footpaths and walkways, particularly when you are trying to get past with heavy gear. Canberra Royal was the worst this year!!

My other pet hate would be grabbing the undies with the dodgy elastic when getting dressed in the dark in the morning and not realising it until you have got to the show... wearing a skirt! Thank heavens for safety pins.