Weasels

Experiment! :)

This video is just about heeling, but it does show the use of both tug and throw

I trained Chess primarily with toys and when she is being stupid I just wait it out, or decrease criteria then shape improvement. She mostly learned to work through the silliness although she does still often go into a crouch instead of a drop, anticipating the throw. I could probably shape that to be better too just haven't worried about it

I'm only newish to clubs and training and don't trail yet so can't answer all your questions but the situation you described with barking dogs sounds familiar, was the club at ridgehaven?

I train at two clubs, para districts in Salisbury on Sunday morning and the less structured local concil one on Wednesday nights. I've never had an instructor take my dog from me nor seen them take someone else's. But if an instructor wanted to I'm sure you could say no.

Instructors have only ever touched my dog for stand for exam exercises, and to say hello to her before or after class :)

Hehe - I heard one of the Para Districts trainers talking about a black & white Aussie they thought was a BC and I wondered if it was you :D

Not saying this is the case here, but a trainer told me once that some of the top working dogs actually have quite a bit of fear-predisposition in the lines, either because it makes them work wider off the stock, or because 'on-stock' temperament is unrelated to 'off-stock' temperament so the fear (and associated fear aggression) was allowed to slip through as long as the work was good. She only mentioned she'd seen this in BCs but it's possible it could be in kelpies too.

So yes, again never assume just because a dog is trained well in one thing that it's 'safe'!

Some numbers --> http://www.savingpets.com.au/2013/08/miranda-devines-plan-for-community-safety-kill-one-million-dogs/

Giving us the need to, in NSW alone, cull – 265,000 dogs. Or another way – about 25% of the overall dog population

Another interesting career direction it can take you, Genetics and biotechnology. I loved those classes, but I think having a lab job would drive me insane

That's what I do :) The lab work is actually pretty streamlined so it's not all monkey-work - in my PhD I divided my time between catching animals, lab work, data analysis and reading & writing. After I focused more on the lab work and analysis but that was by choice.

Agree with TSD a science degree has a lot of latitude. In our research area we had welfare, physiology, evolution and ecology projects on everything from African painted dogs and kangaroos down to dung beetles and snails :D (pro-tip: invertebrates and dead things don't need ethics approval: saves you piles of paperwork!)

:rofl:

Except lots of people who've used the vibration option say it scares the dog more than the normal settings. It's not about the level of pain, it's about something against your neck suddenly doing weird-ass shit and you don't know why.

I touch mine regularly when I forget it is on and have had no ill effects.... I only use small portable units to contain horses and sheep though, not cattle strength. I guess you have to differentiate (and while the shocks are unpleasant, I have not found them to be painful as such)

ETA: Oh, this was in response to TheLBD

I got bitten by a cattle fence as a scrawny 10yo. It definitely hurt! We still use them, but I won't be letting my dogs or kids find out the hard way if I can help it

I still flinch before I touch any fence after being shocked by a 'leccy as a kid. And I can rationalise exactly what happened and why.

So say a feral cat detection dog moving through scrub way out ahead of you. How do you use a clicker out there when sometimes you can't even see the dog? How do you make sure when the dog goes out of sight it will remember the lesson about snakes when it's so driven with it's nose planted in excitement?

Sorry, but how do you give a correction when you can't see the dog? Surely the principle is the same either way - teach the dog, train the dog, proof the dog. Once the dog is out doing the work it's too late for the clicker.

Total lack of respect on all sides IMO.

And the poor +R people have been pretty much hounded off from putting their viewpoint across. The people I respect the most on here never say anything about training anymore because of this.

*nod*

Blackjaq that's because there is no reason for there to be two threads on the same thing.

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I am open to considering other training methods, but there are a number of stumbling blocks on this for me. Firstly being, as I mentioned, I would need to have absolute faith in the electrics, which I don't. Secondly it would need to be demonstrably more effective than a method which didn't involve gadgets and unpleasantness. I spend all day with my dogs, quick and easy aren't important conditions for me. But the plural of anecdote is not data, and I'm not convinced this is the best or only way to go. I do have the gut reaction to panic and do something extreme because snakes, my childhood dog was bitten twice, and we do have them on our doorstep sometimes. But my gut reaction lacks critical thought, so I don't have to believe it without question.

Thirdly, when I or someone else use/s aversives on my dogs they have some level of emotional reaction, often some fear. Fear is absolutely the last emotion I want to rely on in a crisis. There'll be enough of that from me. I know from reactivity training that when afraid Weez will fight and flight in equal measure based on his own set of doggy variables. We've worked long and hard to get fear out of his life so he can think and listen, I'm not going to risk putting it back in so he goes back to making his own (bad) decisions under stress. I know some amazing trainers, but no-one I'd trust with that button.

Point of all this being, no my reasoning isn't just "ZOMG Cruel!!1!". My dogs live their lives off-leash on a property with a road running through it and access to various prey animals, so yes I do care about reliability. I'm sure someone else could run through the same variables and come up with a different conclusion, but that is between them and their dog.

efs

If a dog is working it's fairly likely he/she won't see a snake before the snake sees them anyway.

Thanks for the replies Huski & Aidan (and I think inadvertantly Corvus, since we seemed to post at the same time :) ). Honestly it would take a huge amount for me to get past even the risk of mechanical malfunction with an e-collar to consider them, and my dogs are almost certainly going to be in close proximity to snakes this summer. I'm inclined to agree with not relying on any training for important stuff over supervision and management. That said, our current training keeps them clear from sheep, cows, lizards, horses and cars on a daily basis so I guess we'll start with that.

Is there any evidence that a dog trained with an e-collar is more reliable than a dog trained without one?

I wonder what the purpose of the flying trot is. I would imagine if a shepherd dog was guarding sheep, and a predator came to attack the sheep the fastest way for the shepherd to chase them off would be to run/gallop after them.

Here's the rationale (which I don't believe, but the GSD people take seriously).

"The gait, which describes movement, is called the flying trot. The German shepherd is supposed to have a far front reach as well as great rear end extension. This produces a dog that glides across the ground, covering a large area in few moves, which is the right movement for a dog keeping a flock of sheep together. In fact, the whole visual picture illustrates the qualities necessary to do their intended work. Large, strong and fast might simply state the breed's physical attributes." from www.stevediller.com/articles/german_shepherd.pdf‎

Seems to me that kelpies do a great job of keeping a flock of sheep together without resorting to a strange gait that seems to be gliding.

I dont think I've ever seen or even heard of a German Shepherd herding sheep in Australia. I wonder if they use them in Germany. Australia being such a big sheep country, you'd think they'd be used wouldn't you.

GSD herding is different to Kelpie or BC herding - GSDs are more of a living fence. It is a different style.

There are differences in types in GSDs - notably the working line/show line differences but within those as well.

A former GSD breeder once described to me proper GSD movement (and the conformation that allows it) as the most effecient gait possible for trotting over the course of the day to maintain the flock. And as Kavik said the kelpie was bred for a very different job: to run out infrequently and gather stock that has had minimal handling over the huge distances needed for viable sheep enterprise in Australia. At the time of kelpie development, fence-building was cheap due to exploitation of the labour force (the indigenous and the poor), so boundary-riding dogs didn't suit our conditions.

Shepherd dogs were developed in a very different environment, smaller holdings with sheep more used to people and dogs. The dogs need to work in a much less threatening, upright posture since they are with the sheep most of the time; the predatory stalk of a kelpie or BC would be way too stressful for the sheep to live with. The role of shepherds (the people) was different between the two continents as well.

GSDs certainly do the sport of herding in Australia, but I'm not aware of any that herd 'professionally'.

I wouldn't want to do a recall and ask them to wait/drop straight out (or running between equipment, etc). Pretty sure that would confuse the heck out of my dog, or maybe she is just special. That's why I like the two food game, as you don't need to call them, they are already moving in one direction without a command to confuse them.

Yep I've never used the stop as I described above specifically in agility but use it all the time in herding where a quick drop in position is worth its weight in gold. And the stop-drop keeps them safe around the property too - but then mine are ALWAYS running so that's probably why it worked for us :laugh:

Edit - I do use it on recall though, to get them in a specific spot I want. As long as the majority of recalls are complete I've never had a problem.

Does she understand "stop"? I start there, so they understand a 'no-movement' cue. Then we go to stop-down, so to move on the down is breaking their stop if that makes sense.

Such a little face for such a big belly :laugh:

Staff I was just coming in to post that same article :laugh:

Behluka are the alpacas in the same paddock? Research into guard llamas showed they were much more effective as singles, because in pairs they would stick with their own kind but if alone would bond with & protect the sheep instead.

Wouldn't be a dingo or wild dog in the Adelaide Hills, but could be a feral/stray dog or a possibly a desperate fox if the sheep is elderly Weez flushed a big fox out of our creek and saw it off the property yesterday :/

Could it have been caught on a fence or bit of stray metal or wire?

Aliwake - I found this to be the single most helpful video for our loose leash walking:

E - helpful because it made the feel of leash pressure the cue to turn around and come to me, so the dog is self-redirecting instead of me constantly having to.

For the lunging I recommend visiting the "exercising reactive dogs thread" (http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/232274-exercising-reactive-dogs-thread/) which is full of help and support :)

Yay Ness and Ness :cheer:

Enjoy your retirement little snappy girl :)

If I just 'did as I was told' at my last training club then my only troubleshooting method would be to yell the command louder and then yank a chain when the dog did nothing. Works about as well as an American talking louder and slower just because they're in a foreign country.

I'm not a fan of haltis but experience has told me that just because someone volunteers at a local club is no reason to listen to them without engaging critical thinking and to discount my own experience with my dogs.