krustie22

Thanks AD.

Do you get one run like ADAA or 2? I read something about 2 - but what I read was old.

I have heard something about exclusion areas in Open. I am presumming this is an area marked off where the handler cannot go? What happens if you go into the exlusion area - fault or eliminated? If you go get eliminated - can you keep running the course?

yep, it is an area you cannot go. usually a line marked on the ground with paint or ribbon, and consists of about 3 or 4 obstacles, quite often with a tunnel! hehe ive been told open is usually set at excellent level (so in the middle i.e novice > excellent > masters)

It is a DQ if you enter that area. you can still finish the course tho some people persist until their dog takes the exclusion obstacles, and others try once then help the dog by moving closer. i will probably be doing this

gooooooooooooooood luck! :D ill see you there!

we have set pretty simple goals for our run. me = dont get lost...and her = stay motivated and have fun! i wont be correcting her if she misses an obstacle as that will be my error anyway, and it could cause her to shut down. i want her to enjoy it, and get used to the ring and the people etc...best place to do that is at our training grounds i figure!!

as for lead being on/off ive scribed for 2 trials at metro now, and normally you walk ur dog into ring on lead, judge will tell you to remove ur lead, hand it to lead steward, then they will say when ur ready...when you clear the last jump you grab your lead and you have your little party as you slip on the lead. it has been pretty casual each time!

as for the weaves, it confuses me. i have seen one dog pop out, put back in and DQ, then the next dog pops out, gets put back in and it is a fault? mayeb it is only a DQ if you repeat part of the weaves you have already completed? im just gonna hope we hit em at 100mph! ;) she rips through when they come up fast!

Just wondering if there is a better place than ebay to sell 2nd hand training books and dvds?

TIA

BC are you looking to sell them privately? if you are, is there any chance you could pm me a list? i have been looking for some, but find most of the good ones can only be bought from the USA and postage costs a mint!

ive seen videos of susan garrett training her pup with regards to using a gentle leader head collar. she attaches so much reinforcement to the collar that the pup thinks "the collar game" is fun.

IMO any dog that will not work with a head collar on just has not been conditioned to do so. this means it takes time to condition rather than just putting it on and expecting results.

fuzzy - often people use a prong in conjunction with positive rewards. The prong isn't there for corrections - it is there for control. You can't control all your dogs triggers all of the time - someone could come running toward you etc and you need to ensure the public's safety. If you have a large, powerful dog they can come in handy.

That's why a lot of people are using head collars in conjunction with reward-based behaviour modification. Maybe not so many people here, but I know behaviourists in Australia that recommend them and it is also recommended in the literature by practising vet behaviourists. They are considered a superior tool for control because you can control the head. Before everyone jumps on me about dogs lunging on head collars, it is usually a setup involving two leashes or a double-ended leash. Linda Tellington-Jones has a method of walking up the leash to the head when a dog is teetering on the edge of reacting.

No one is saying that a dog should be punished for being fearful.

But if the dog is wearing a tool that delivers punishments automatically, don't you run the risk of that happening by accident? Control and punishment are not mutually exclusive any more that punishment and reward is. When a dog is in a fearful state they become very sensitive to negative stimuli. It's adaptive, so they can learn quickly the things they need to avoid in the future.

Prongs are, as far as I can tell, quite a nicely designed tool for precision feedback, but personally, I'd rather have absolute control of both rewards and punishers if I can.

Corvus - I'm unclear at what you are suggesting here so need to check. Are you saying that head-collars don't deliver a punishment where PPCollars do, in the circumstances mentioned here?

im of the understanding that head collars (properly used) redirect the dogs attention, there is no pinching, not choking (like with a check chain), the dogs head is gently re-positioned away from the distraction , whereas a prong collar is pain stimulus (creates discomfort and the dog goes back to where it didn't feel discomfort). i could be wrong...that is just my understanding.

their facebook page provided a link for this online petition

this makes me sick to my stomach! for once i am relieved about how far behind the rest of the country queensland is!

The flat collars only rule makes sense to me, Bedazzled - why didn't people like it? You can't correct in the obedience ring anyway, can you, so what's the point of wearing a correction chain in there (unless you want it to remind the dog that it could be corrected, which is surely no more fair than me being allowed to carry my tug in the ring to remind my dog she can be rewarded?)

Yup...i agree with this! it is also why i think i will stick to agility and not do obedience trialling. at least in agility you are free to reward (verbally) your dog till your hearts content!

Ok, I know they still haven't actually released the DVD's but I soooooo want them to arrive now!!!! It's not often that I'm this impatient, but I think this whole group ordering comradery has made me more excited than usual!!!

lol yep! plus it will be so good to have a group of people watching the same thing, and sharing their experience with it! caaaaaaaant wait!

Cheers for this. I did go to the induction night, and were told they used check chains, they did say, no flat collars, head halties harnesses or martingdales, pinch collar was not and is not mentioned in the blurb you get, or told.

wow it is amazing the different rules different clubs come up with! the first club i went to earlier this year (just before moving to brissy) had the same "rule" that you HAD to have a choker, no flat collars! my girl was super sensitive so it was a nightmare! i ended up spending heaps of time at home desensitizing her to the noise of the check chain...now she doesnt care, although if she got a bit of a pop from it, she would shut down. while i hated that rule, it did get me to try something different. they were a very old-school club tho, where training was just an hour of paddock bashing. no focus/engagement training, no reward opportunities etc...we didnt go back.

hey kelpiechick, the DVD sounds very handy! where did you get that one from?

www.tug-e-nuff.co.uk

They have some great looking toys too but unfortunately won't post their toys OS as they haven't paid to insure them, DVD's are OK though.

Definitely worthwhile adding to your collection IMO.

He breaks every exercise down into flatwork, one jump, two jumps, three jumps, etc. and is very big on creating a balance between working close and driving ahead.

just had a look! not too bad a price do you recall how much shipping was and how long it took by any chance? not important if you cant remember, ill just email them and find out

And there is certainly a lot more to 'flatwork' than just circle work, that's for sure - have a look at the new Dave Munnings DVD -he does a ton of flatwork exercises before his dogs ever get onto obstacles and you can see the results, circle work is only one little part of it.

hey kelpiechick, the DVD sounds very handy! where did you get that one from?

Q-Me - Clean Run have it, also a few UK agility sites do as well. Might be cheaper postage to get it from the UK, US/Clean Run postage is too dear these days unless you can bulk order.

thanks jess, i will have a look around tomorrow and see what i can find. i am kinda cranky with clean run atm over postage costs and also had an issue with customer service! from what im reading it sounds like a good one to add to the collection! thanks!

Can I ask why people consider tugging to be a superior reward to food?

I was looking at the 2x2 method on susan garetts site and she said ALL the dogs in her training club are taught to use the tug rather than food.

Additionally does anyone know where I can get some info on training the 2x2 method for weaves?

- like can you use a ball instead of a tug?

or even where I could get a reaosnably priced book or dvd about this method?

I am thinking about going back to basics with weaves, having a lot of trouble with entries. Once we get going, we are fine, it is just the first 2- 3 weaves that are an issue at the moment.

we are still working on the tug thing! BUT i managed to teach my girl to weave (i bought the SG 2x2 DVD from ebay!) and i only ever used food to reward. i used chopped up chicken necks (nice bite size chunks to easily find) as they are most rewarding to her. you only need to do 5 mins a day for this method to work! the vid below is of our 8th session (i was a bad mama and only trained 3 times a week instead of frequent smaller sessions!) but it still paid off better than anything else we tried.

tugging is handy, but it can be done with food for sure! in the vid you can see her munch on the chicken neck lol...

Thanks Tassie, do you know where I can get the DVD ? (preferably from within australia so I dont have to pay crazy postage prices!!!)

it is certainly not cheap, but agility click are lovely, and usually quick to post off. they charge $70 for it, and i dont think postage is too much. they are the only one in australia i have been happy to deal with so far!

And there is certainly a lot more to 'flatwork' than just circle work, that's for sure - have a look at the new Dave Munnings DVD -he does a ton of flatwork exercises before his dogs ever get onto obstacles and you can see the results, circle work is only one little part of it.

hey kelpiechick, the DVD sounds very handy! where did you get that one from?

i know that a well used prong collar is a usefull tool if the circumstances are extreme enough.

Prong collars are not just for extreme circumstances

I used one on my lab for one training session only (under instructor supervision) because she pulled when she got excited. I would say she was FAR from out of control or an extreme case.

I feel that we really only needed that one session and she quickly picked up what we wanted her to do. I had been using the front leading harness and a material martingale to no effect before that.

I actually feel they are quite gentle compared to some other correctional aids like a check chain or halter.

ive seen people parade it around like a magic 5 minute fix, and i guess that has created a bit of a bad taste for me personally, but i dont have a problem with people using it. i know it is not cruel etc.

if my dog was pulling when she got excited, i would personally think i need more focus work, and more training around distractions, and maybe i need to transfer more value for her being close to me, than wanting reinforcement from the environment? but again, that is only one solution, and probably not as fast working as yours. i guess i have only thought of it as an extreme case tool as i have never thought it had a practical use for everyday training! you learn something new every day! ;)

How is using a prong collar harsh or severe punishment

Or harsher than a CC or head collar?

Not questioning whether or not the club is permitted by the ANKC/CCCQ to use them, but I just don't see how the above can "defend" their decision.

it can be defended if that is what they wrote the rule for. it is their rule, to be interpreted as they see fit. doesn't mean it is a good rule, and doesn't mean it is based on informed opinion. but it is there.

this is from Logan All Breeds Obedience Club Inc. website...this is perhaps the rule they are refering to? I think if that is the case it could be better written to be more specific, but, i think it is enough for them to defend their decision if need be.

CLUB RULES

All dogs must have current vaccinations.

Please clean up if your dog fouls the ground.

No training for bitches in season.

Dogs must be kept on leash unless under an instructor's direction.

No mistreatment of dogs at any time. (Harsh or severe discipline is not permitted)

I agree 100% against anyone hurting the dogs, but harsh or severe discipline???? what is that exactly?

If an Akita is about to kill the person or dog next to it, please be a good dog, oh you bit them bad bad dog??? You know that is just rubbish. I was leading our girl, not even correcting, have done the foundation method with her, she sits and does not move from that position, she heals nicely, happily

trots along she is a real prancer, all on the pinch collar there is no need to correct her.

i know that a well used prong collar is a usefull tool if the circumstances are extreme enough. i dont think i would personally ever use one, and if it came to that, every other avenue would have to be exhausted. but from the clubs possible point of view (which i am not defending in any way) they may see it as Harsh or severe discipline. you seem intelligent, so surely you understand not everyone takes the time to learn about every piece of training equipment. they are probably just uneducated about this tool, and have jumped straight to the conclusion that it looks scary therefore must be dangerous...

IMO it is quite silly, if you are not harming your dog, and it is not interfering with anyone else, i dont see the problem...but i dont run that club. chances are, the person/people that do, are like so many others, and are set in their ways that "our way is the right way, and there is no other way"...

I feel bad for you in this predicament, but maybe this is one fight that is not worth fighting. If you are keen to train your dog, look around for a slightly more open minded and accepting club.

this is from Logan All Breeds Obedience Club Inc. website...this is perhaps the rule they are refering to? I think if that is the case it could be better written to be more specific, but, i think it is enough for them to defend their decision if need be.

CLUB RULES

All dogs must have current vaccinations.

Please clean up if your dog fouls the ground.

No training for bitches in season.

Dogs must be kept on leash unless under an instructor's direction.

No mistreatment of dogs at any time. (Harsh or severe discipline is not permitted)

Could someone please point me in the direction of finding out what shadow handling is?

this vid helped me understand it a bit better!

Just curious, what does everyone use to record their trial runs? what do you find best? electronic, or hard copy? Can you recommend the best ones in your opinion?

Order has been done now.

done! wishing petey all the best and a speedy recovery!

done...now for the wait!

thanks! :D we are super excited about giving it a go!

awesome! im happy to transfer tonight also