Leah82

The 'E' locus is mentioned on the whippet page with it's recessive counter part 'e' although it's not clear how this would be represented

Typically cream or yellow (as seen in labs) would be a result of recessive red although it's hard to tell what locus determines the strength of the pigment, some point to the C locus while the dog genetics page suggests the existence of an I locus (for Intensity) although it doesn't say how it would be represented in strong reds vs creams

I'll have to look up urajiro now. It sounds like a Japanese word.

Urajiro is the name given to that modifier for shibas. In greys it's fallow. From looking at the pictures in your link, deer seems to be the same thing. Interestingly, rabbits also carry something similar, called otter.

Also, while I was scrolling through, I noticed the bit about "cream" whippets. The author says the it's not "true" liver but liver nose and eye rims would suggest that it probably is. She notes cream dogs can produce black or blue pups and assumes from that that it masks those colours in cream dogs, which seems unlikely. More likely is that it's liver and modifies black to liver but if the other parent doesn't also carry liver, you get black (or possibly blue) pups, very much as you'd expect from that gene. The claim that cream dogs bred to fawns produced brindle pups also doesn't mean much because.. K is dominant to k^br (which would hide brindle) so assume the cream dog is Kk^br (which is black carrying the recessive brindle on the other side of the locus), mated to a fawn dog who is kk (non-black, non-brindle, this is lowest on the hierarchy).

So..

K k^br

k k

50% chance of black pups

50% chance of brindle pups

No new or unusual genes going on here, besides whatever lightens the pigment.

On the topic of pigment, I've seen several whippets who had fully pigmented (black) eye rims and noses but appeared almost white so I'd guess this modifying gene is not unique to these liver-nosed dogs. I'd assume it'd be something on the I locus and might be linked to b in whippets, which would explain why you'd see genetically black dogs with it but you'd never see a fully pigmented liver whippet without it (if that makes sense?).

interestingly this website suggests dogs with the recessive red gene (ee) may have a lighter pigment in the nose and eye rim even though they have the black marker, this could be why they say in cream whippets it's not true liver

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/masks.html

Although the recessive red allele does not directly affect the colour of the nose, eye rim, lip and nail pigment, it is common for this pigment to fade from black to grey or pink as a recessive red dog ages. This may well be another indicator that a dog is recessive red rather than sable - although as sables may also sometimes have poor pigment, it is not foolproof.

edit: here's a whole page on nose colour.... http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/noses.html

What is dun genetically? Dilute brown?

Just Liver, it occurs on the B locus, dogs either have the liver or black marker with black being the dominate, unless the dog is actually liver or black you'll be able to tell which marker they have based on their nose colour

BB - black

Bb - black (liver carrier)

bb - liver

Dilute black comes up blue and dilute liver is lilac or a pale greyish brown.

Dilute is also recessive so dilute livers are even more rare

Is that like a weimaraner colour? Because I'm sure I saw a greyhound at the Sandown races years ago that was that colour. I've never forgotten it. It was beautiful.

yup weims are dilute liver

I didn't realise liver (brown) was rare in greyhounds! I thought with all this hoohaa that it must be a dilute of some sort :laugh:

well if you can get dilute blacks and dominate livers in greyhounds then I guess you could get a dilute liver, google isn't giving me an example though :p

most of the dilute looking greys that aren't blue look more recessive red (ee) than dilute liver (bbdd)

What is dun genetically? Dilute brown?

Just Liver, it occurs on the B locus, dogs either have the liver or black marker with black being the dominate, unless the dog is actually liver or black you'll be able to tell which marker they have based on their nose colour

BB - black

Bb - black (liver carrier)

bb - liver

Dilute black comes up blue and dilute liver is lilac or a pale greyish brown.

Dilute is also recessive so dilute livers are even more rare

...might not be popular, but: If I would have more than 1 dog, and one of them would be heavily handicapped by loss of sight, loss of limps or other diseases that would negatively impact his 'normal' dog life while with other dogs I would consider to put the handicapped dog to sleep if he would be bullied by the other ones.

Not only unpopular, unnecessary.

The oldest dog in my pack is a not far off 18 year old bitch. She has vision issues. Do does the 12 year old mini poodle.

The Whippet boys are very tolerant of them.

I have heard of cases where the pack turned on a frail dog but touch wood, I can't see it happening in mine.

Our blind dog simply would not cope as an only dog, he has our poodle x as a constant companion and playmate. It was actually recommended by the specialist when he was diagnosed with PRA that we get another dog to act as a bit of an aid for him, although they did stress to make sure it was a dog that would not attempt to dominate him once he lost his sight

Little off topic but how would you deal with a 1 year old bullying a blind 8 year old in terms of hierarchy, both males?

I'm lucky we didn't end up looking after the 1 year old but the initial plan was for him to spend 4 weeks with us

Well, its pretty obvious from a pack dynamic who would win any dust up.

Supervision, correction and separation when I wasn't there. Visitors can be challenging to pack dynamics and at about the three week stage, they're going to figure that they're staying. Much would also depend on the attitude of the older dog.

Good thing we managed to get out of it then because there is no way my OH would put the 1 year old over and above his beloved collie, even if it was for everyone's benefit

...might not be popular, but: If I would have more than 1 dog, and one of them would be heavily handicapped by loss of sight, loss of limps or other diseases that would negatively impact his 'normal' dog life while with other dogs I would consider to put the handicapped dog to sleep if he would be bullied by the other ones.

I did mention the situation would have been temporary didn't I

where the fighting is about dogs trying to sort out the rank this is an interesting article...here a quote that sums it up in a nutshell: ..."Usually, the owner is the cause. It is over-simplistic to say this; but, the reality is that the average dog owner will often completely ignore his dogs’ social hierarchy and attempt to impose what he believes to be equitable. This leads to tension between the dogs, which then leads to aggression when the owner is present"...

Over simplistic is right. Most of the more knowledgeable dog owner I know who've had scuffles in their home know what their pack order is. It's when that pack order is CHANGING that you can have issues. Dogs mature, dogs age.. it's a dynamic thing.

Anyone with an ounce of dog knowledge knows dogs don't do democracy.

Little off topic but how would you deal with a 1 year old bullying a blind 8 year old in terms of hierarchy, both males?

I'm lucky we didn't end up looking after the 1 year old but the initial plan was for him to spend 4 weeks with us

Nothing that resembles a fight here, couple of growls from Sarah if Collie tries to take something off her or if he's getting over excited.

He's mostly learnt his lesson though so if Sarah is chewing on a ball that he wants he'll just sit next to her staring at the ball until she gets bored and wanders off :p

Why is it such a rare colour in this particular breed?

From what I've seen and read Dun appears to be the name given to the solid liver gene in greys which is rare in a lot of breeds and rarer still when there is such a wide variety of accepted colours in the breed

Simple case of it being a recessive gene

I think I'd call that colour - chestnut (red)

Dun - in horses anyway is sort of an ice coffee colour with dark points

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun_gene

We are not talking horses. In greyhounds this colour is called Dun. In labs it's called chocolate. In GSP's it's called liver.

It's called liver in labs as well, chocolate is just the common name for brown all over :p

the main give aways for the liver gene are the brown nose and lighter eyes, you can get golden labs and cocker spaniels with the liver gene instead of black

this is one of my favourite websites for anyone interested in colour genetics

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/

with Angel eyes as well there's a lot of evidence to suggest it stains their teeth yellow when given to dogs that are still teething due to the antibiotic.

If you're going to use it wait until your dog has finished teething

bugger just realised that getting a costco bed to country WA would be pretty impossible, unless someone wants to drive one over from SA for you

our Costco bed is still going great after nearly 18 months

our dogs dig in it, it's taken slobber, wee and vomit and plenty of hair and it still looks pretty much as it does in the photo and the fluff is very much intact

Never felt the need to wash it as it doesn't smell (apart from wiping off the previously mentioned bodily fluids) although the cover does come off if you want to.

the padding has settled somewhat from use but rather than making the mattress flat it's just comfier.

Obviously my dogs are a little lighter than 50kgs but there are plenty of great reviews online from people with bigger dogs

http://www.kirklandsignaturepetsupplies.com/kirkland-brand-pet-beds

Quick google search came up with this breeder in NSW. Looks like most of the pied are from America, no mention of titles or full registered names though for the dogs they have.

http://www.sedonaminiatures.com/Dachshunds.html

The American standard here (http://cdn.akc.org/Dachshund.pdf) only mentions that a small amount of white on the chest is acceptable but not desirable, no mention of pied

I know a couple of rescues that work a lot with ex puppy farm dogs and they would be unlikely to rehome them to a family expecting a baby. It's a lot for them to have to cope with, especially once the baby starts moving around, they need a quiet stable home where they can learn what it's like living in the real world at their own pace.

I'm expecting a baby in just over 3 months and I've had Sarah who's a former puppy farm breeder for 2.5 years, she's now a completely different dog, she has so much more confidence and trusts me completely, I know it would have taken a lot longer to get here if we threw a baby into the mix too soon

Also spaniels being gun dogs also need a fair bit of training to get them walking in a straight line with their head up :p

Personally I wouldn't have worried too much about the humping, it's to be expected that an untrained male would get overly excited at a meet and greet resulting in humping. Our cocker spaniel tried to hump Sarah when she came over for a trial, was perfectly ok once the initial excitement died down and within a week the two were inseparable.

I'd be focusing more on getting a dog that suits your life and your plans that an initial meet and greet with your dog, you're never really going to know how they'll respond to each other until they are both settled in.

Also how long until the baby arrives? You'll need to factor in how much time you have to train out undesirable behaviors, an undesexed male for example is likely to mark in the house

Just because a written agreement wasn't written up at the time of sale doesn't mean you can't get one written now.

It sounds like you went into the agreement without discussing the logistics which was a failing on both parties but essentially you want to make it clear how often your dog will be needed, how long will he need to stay each time and how long do they want you to keep him entire for, or alternatively how many litters are they hoping to get.

Once you agree on the above you can stop feeling taken advantage of.

and just to be clear it was their dog first, they took the time, effort and money to breed him in the first place and they entrusted him with you so I'm not sure why you feel like they are using you as a meal ticket.

but at the end of the day if you're even considering returning your dog to the breeder then I'd probably go with that option. There's not many people I know that would even consider that after owning a dog for a week let along a year.

Hopefully it'll all die down after the initial excitement and people realise that shopping at bunnings with a dog in tow isn't as exciting and they thought it would be.

Mine wouldn't have an issue with kids but we'd be constantly making sure Collie didn't knock things over and Sarah still gets skittish at loud noises and strange things like trolleys so it would definitely be a 2 person job to take them into bunnings and have a hope of buying anything.

When it comes to rare breeds you need to understand the lengths some of these breeders go to in order to keep the companion pet available in this country.

Like others have mentioned the breeder would have likely imported semen because there's not enough genetic diversity in Australia, not to mention the cost of c-section and caring for a litter and finding appropriate homes.

My next dog will be a rare breed and I'm committed to contributing to the breeders program in anyway that I can, whether it be gaining a title or breeding from my dog.

I know you want the best for your dog but consider that your contribution is helping to keep this breed available to the average pet owner for generations to come. Not sure what price you can put on that considering the amount of purebreeds that are dwindling in numbers both here and overseas

Both parties were partly to blame for this accident happening

However it's unlikely children will get banned from bunnings any time soon so there are a number of people that want to make sure the dog and the dog's owner are not vilified which would likely lead to further backlash when it comes dogs in public places.

I for one am hoping this isn't one step forward, two steps back when it comes to where our dogs can and can't go

...'Madelyn had attempted to pat the dog before she was told not to, and it is when she walked away from the Jack Russell that it bit her, Ms Hungerford explained....'

...that's a quote from here My link ...

me thinks Ms Hungerford is back pedalling after the initial backlash because that's not mentioned in earlier articles. also it doesn't say who told the girl not to pat the dog.

believing everything you read is right up their with speculation :p

And I just can't recognize what information shared here leads to the conclusion that the parents 'have clearly gone for the 'you'll be right approach...that's pure speculation and definitely not clear!

Experience.

also if the parent's asked if the dog could be patted it would have been included in the story, instead of 'the little girl saw the other dog being patted'

Willem you seem to be opposed to speculation whilst doing a lot of it yourself.

If we don't speculate and read between the lines then what's the point in even discussing it in a forum

I like the move by Bunnings, I hope they don't go back on their policy after this incident and I do think we need to encourage dogs in more public places because this is where people start to realise that they need to be responsible both as pet owners and parents around strange dogs. I know we've bypassed bunnings on the way home more than once because it's been too hot to leave the dogs in the car so I'll definitely be bringing ours in next time if they are already with us rather than making another trip out.

What I don't agree with the whole thing is that bunnings paid the medical costs, albeit minor this takes away the responsibility of the owner. It doesn't matter where you are or how it happened the owner should be the one fronting any medical costs caused by their dog.

and yes the parent's are also to blame, there was mention that the little girl had just gotten over her fear of dogs which is often seen in children who have very little experience with dogs and clearly her parents have gone for the 'you'll be right, all dogs are friendly' approach in helping her get over her fear.

I was at the beach the other day watching this guy fishing with his grey hound x dane or something of the sort off lead. Dog couldn't care less about us but I noticed a young family perked his interest straight away. Owner managed to call the dog off once but as the family got closer this dog clearly wanted to get to the kids. Mum and Dad attempted to shield the children as the dog ran up to them and luckily the dog was friendly. OH scoffed at this attempt to shield as unnecessary, not sure he was expecting his dog loving wife to respond with the fact that I would have done the same thing. The dogs approach was to rush up the family, try to by pass the parents to get to the kids, clearly the children were new and interesting so it was anyone's guess how the dog would react up close.

at the end of the day there needs to be a bit more education on all fronts