Mogda

Re puppy play pen I have not purchased one as yet as we have just been spending so much time outside, but also I am unsure about how it will stay in place with such a strong fast growing puppy? How do you stabilize them when using them inside without the dog pulling it around. I remember when my children were toddlers and they got to that stage where they could just move the play pen around with them. :laugh:

Yes I was saying that I like the look of the K9 pro trainer Steve somebody who is in Kurrajong and does in house training over so many days. Good idea I might just get money for xmas and see if that adds up to some sessions? :)

Ok yes understand. I am especially glad to not use the chain collar. I only bought the chain collar when the breeder suggested that's what she needed but have always been reluctant to use it. If I was not going to be near a very busy and heavy goods being moved I would not have used it this morning either. Fortunately she only had it on for a couple of minutes and she just sat the whole time because she was scared of the traffic noise. Yes a chain leash will definitely be a bonus as she does chew on her leash. And I will buy a better collar as this fabric type one she has just pulls over her head because it loosens whilst shes pulling so much.When I am walking her I now stop and pull the leash out of her mouth and will not move until she stops grabbing it and trying to walk me. She is a very stubborn pup and just plops down and will not move unless going where she wants to, so I just pick her up and bring her back inside. I then take her back out again in 10 minutes and try again. But going for walks further then around the outside of our house is impossible at this stage. . . it would be me just dragging a pup along the ground behind me.

Thanks for the good advice. I have just put the chain choker collar on her today for the first time as I had to go to my daughters place for something to be delivered and I didn't want her jumping over the people. I have not been confident to use this particular collar as I was not 100% sure of how to use it safely. The puppy classes I have been taking her to each week do not believe in using this type of collar as they say its cruel. The link to that web page you attached was excellent. That trainer looks amazing I wished it was not so expensive and travel distanced and we would be there in a flash. I will have a search later on this afternoon to see if I can see a good web article re correct leash/walking training. Thanks for you info. Mogda

Thanks that sounds like a great idea. I have been suffering a silly reluctance with the crate and feel a great guilt when putting her in but I do know its for her best and that's how I came to use it as time out. I could see when she loses the plot she just cant help herself as she just simply cant calm down and her crazed behavior goes from bad to worse. I was always worried I might ruin the idea of the crate being a good place for her if I used it for punishment too and then she wouldn't settle in it at night. But people have to be able to visit and not be harassed by our very enthusiastic and energetic young pup, so I will definitely put her in the next time someone comes and before I actually let them in. If once she settles in the crate I let her out . . do I then just put her back in if the behavior continues? Mogda

Hi to all again. Busy times in between posts but isn't that everyones lives these days. No need to feel sorry for me its just what happens with owning a very strong willed and energetic young female pup. But thanks for the encouraging thoughts though Sares. Toileting is still about the same . . . shes good if I take her out very regularly . . . but if I am busy with something and not outside as regularly she will just go wherever shes standing. . . so its really just catching it still. . but its good not mopping up and wrapping smelly droppings all day.She is so very clever though as a few times each day she will actually go to the door as if she needs to go out and then when we do go outside she will squat and pretend to go to the toilet, nothing comes out, but will really only want to play! She is growing a lot and has learnt to jump up on the lounge as soon as Im out of the room! She has also learnt how to do the stairs very well and has become a great escape artist when Im out trying to put the washing out. So much stacking of things across stairs now until I can work out a way of blocking them off. But she is an amazing jumper with her strong back legs and fast pace! She sleeps better now at night with some encouragement to stay asleep when she wants to go out early hours. She wakes with the sun and is ready to really go to sleep about 11pm. She still has my two daughters up on the lounge with their feet tucked under when they come over. Although now that she can actually get up onto the lounge the girls aren't feeling quite so safe anymore. We are yet to find a way of calming her when people come to visit. We have tried giving the visitor treats to get her to sit down calmly but as soon as the treats run out shes up and off again. So she usually ends up in the crate having time out. She doesn't really calm down until the visitor/visitors leave. The visitor problem, biting and very poor leash/walking behavior will hopefully be addressed by some expert training to help us with these issues . . .and I'm sure it will make her a much happier pup not being in trouble so often :)

Yes it certainly hasn't made any difference. I will buy some advantage. Thanks

Many people have suggested possums are terrible for spreading fleas and apparently sandy soil, as it was in our yard, is also perfect breeding ground for fleas. I definitely appreciate the calming times and make sure enjoy the puppy side until her jaws lock around my arm or she is aiming for my face. She definitely has become far too dependent upon me so I am encouraging more away time on her own and will separate he into her sleep time in crate at night to be in a room on her own. Shes sleeping probably 3 hrs before needing to go outside so I am sure she will make herself heard.

Yes poor little pup, alathough shes becoming less piranahaish Yes I washed her 48hrs previous and I am aware you should not wash them too much so I know that's not a solution. The flees are very visible and moving around very visibly. They are black and she has so many The frontline has not made any difference they have worsened over the last couple of days. I think the heat along with the humidity makes the fleas breed more.

Hi to all. That youtube video was somewhat familiar. Mirana is starting to have some more calmer times in her day and the toilet training is working if I am absolutely diligent with the very regular visits outside. The jumping and the biting is still happening but we are very strong with letting her know its a very bad thing and slowly seeing some little changes with her responding to our voices and words. I have another issue at the moment that I am struggling with and thought you may be able to offer a little info for me. We have very sandy soil and a family of possums that live in trees next to our front verandah/door and surrounding trees. I am told this causes a lot of trouble with fleas. Because of such regular visits outside with toilet training I have found that our pup is covered in fleas. We have polished floorboards. I have set fleabombs in each room of the house and the pup has frontline plus treatment on. Today she was so itchy I have given her a capstar flea tablet appropriate to her size, I have washed all her bedding etc. Does anyone have any suggestions as what else I can do to try and eradicate these horrible fleas and help the poor puppy to stop itching. Mogda

Hi to all. . . funny posts. . . I have noted the fast running as she always seems to know when ive dropped the leash whilst out walking and off shes gone fast as lightning! Shes off to puppy school again tomorrow hopefully she will be a little better behaved this week. I'll give it a go returning the spray when I'm there. :)

Hi to all who have offered great advice and encouragement. I have surfaced again to quickly respond to your posts and update on our puppy. With toilet training taking her out very regularly with a treat and when she actually goes she sits and waits for her treat. Shes not big on praise or fuss its all about the food treat. Its a very slow process and basically its just really catching it at this stage, as if Im busy and miss any cues whatsoever she returns to one of her regular spots. I bought some of that spray that you put on the spot she goes and its suppose to deter the dog to return . . it was expensive and useless! Re the biting and jumping Im still working with the push down the loud growl and no telling her to sit and then rewarding when shes sitting quietly. That's sill a work in progress but the entire family walk around with treats in their pockets ready for when she jumps and bites. She is particularly bad when my two older daughters come over and they end up jumping up onto the lounge and tucking their feet up under them so she cant bite. She has the situation worked out! Puppy training school was a bit of a non event as our puppy ended up being the naught student having to stay on her leash for the class after drawing blood when biting a staffy in the class. She was the biggest by far and had no idea of her size and when the others played she got serious! A trainer is rather expensive I didn't realize quite so expensive, so I am working towards that. In the meantime she has consistency, plenty of toys outside play/exercise, love and discipline. The bones ordered from the butchers finally came through last night but they are huge so have to work out today how to get them a quarter of the size so she can actually pick them up. . . but I am sure she will love them. Sleeping hasn't changed much still only tiny catnaps during the day and one short stint in the crate in daytime hours when shes exhausted but wont give in. She goes to sleep about 11/12 at night and up again at 3 to outside toilet trip and then back to sleep until 5.30. I don't get much of a chance to get on computer as the days are full and the nights are late, so when shes settled during the day I have much to do and then by late at night I have to think about sleeping myself. Thanks again for all help and info and Ill be back on when I get another chance. Mogda Oh by the way the puppys name is Mirana :)

Hope the photo loaded.

We are having a go on the weekend to fence off a safe part of the yard for her to be able to play alone. At this stage the grassed area where I take her now for play/toileting is not fenced off, and on the other side well its fenced and gated but is terraced gardens that are quite high in places, so not safe for her to be out there on her own. She has been enjoying playing with empty milk plastic 2ltr bottles, small cardboard boxes, paper towel rolls and when shes able to play outside on her own she will play with them there too. She has beef back bones available for us to pick up tomorrow and I will be giving her one of those to have a good chew on.

I fed the pup in the crate tonight as was suggested in an earlier post. l will wait until shes a little more use to the crate before I try bedtime in the crate. I am trying to add photo of puppy for people who have asked for me to include one but cant find how to insert/attach photo. . . could someone explain how to please? Mogda

Thank you to you Cosmolo and to you JessicaM. I have not been rewarding her with food today as I too felt I must have been doing it incorrectly. So each time today she has gone back to the lounge to tear the fabric or bite more of the kitchen cupboard door I have just called her name loudly and said no in an extremely firm tone. I then call her to me and give her lots of praise pats. I have found if I say "good girl" she looks for food treat and then goes back to bad behavior. When she ripped the lounge previously I would say no very loudly in a growly firm voice to her straight away when she first grabbed the fabric until she stopped and then tell her to sit say good girl and give her the food treat. She would eat the treat and go straight back to chair and grab the fabric. This process continued. The same happened when I was teaching her not to jump up and bite me when I was sitting with her. I would push her down whilst saying her name and telling her to get down, . . when she would drop back down I would say good girl and give her a food treat. . . she would continue the process so much so that sometimes she would only even pretend to jump and then look at my hand for treat. What should I have been doing differently Cosmolo as I was catching her straight away, reacting immediately to deter her with name, voice, give reward and praise after stopping, but instead it just encouraged her to keep going "good girl" was the cue for her to eat and then do it again JessicaM I have previously tried the water spray but she just tries to eat it and seems to get sillier. She has been very tired and lethargic this afternoon as it has been extremely humid here, and I don't think she likes the heat. I took the opportunity this afternoon whilst she was snoozing to lay down on the lounge near by her and had 30 minutes as I think the last 10 days have caught up with the both of us. Cosmolo your training booklet would be much appreciated. Appreciate your time guys. Mogda

thanks. Happy to do that with toileting and couldn't care less if I mop up a hundred times a day. The toileting was more just a training thing for her to know where to go. The biting and ripping and crazed running around is definitely something I feel quite worried and frustrated about. That's where I am confused now . . .do I continue with the pulling her off things and then rewarding her when she stops, or is that what I did wrong, and encouraged her to keep doing that to seek and gain the reward? Or. . . Do I pull her off the item, or the person, or push her off my leg/trousers/shoe/foot and just say a very angry and determined no, or growl or yelp or bang a paper against the wall, like the breeder suggested? The biting is sharp and hard and very aggressive when she is in one of those spur of the moment crazy periods she has. I have tried taking her outside and distracting her but it continues and last night she added this horrible vicious sounding growl to her list. . and she meant business. . she had the leash in her mouth pulling it and biting madly as she growled very loudly and seriously. eventually I rolled her over onto her back in the submissive position, as the breeder says he does with his pups, but it made no difference. This aggressive behavior is a very big concern for me because she can hurt and it may not be only me that she hurts; what happens when shes bigger. I have put in a message for the guy from K9pro website to contact me re puppy training help. She is asleep just now in the crate she has been awake since 5.15 and was very tired. She was not happy and thrashed, cried , howled and barked. I just kept popping my head around the corner where she couldn't see to check she was alright. She eventually slowed down and dropped off to sleep. She is in the crate in the room next to me now. I will try for a pic of her later. I am going to head downstairs while shes asleep to the clothes line super quickly to put out a quick load of washing that's been waiting since last night Thanks for the encouraging ideas.

Ok thanks again everyone. Wow I have to say my head is reeling with information, and completely confused how I got to hear with trying to train our pup and be a responsible pet owner! From the moment the pup stepped into our house she was given love but disciplined every time she tried to bite or tear into things like furniture clothes cupboards, feet, shoes etc. I went onto websites and saw how to reprimand and reward which I then did consistently. With toilet training I put the paper at the front door near to where she would be going out to eventually, and she shredded it over and over again. I stopped the paper. I took her out as suggested on toilet training websites; after sleeps/naps, playing, meals and circling and sniffing, and stayed with her. I sat with her and waited she would play and sit and sit but not go. I have spent up to an hour waiting for her to go. I went back on to training website and it said take her out give her 10 minutes, do not play just stand in the spot where you want her to go and if she doesn't go bring her back in and then take her out again in 5 minutes which is what I did. That wasn't working so I went back to just waiting out there with her. Rarely she might go but it was more incidental than successful. 5% of the time she would go outside but it would be purely incidental. 95% of the time she would go the moment you took your eyes off her for a minute when you were back inside. And yes I had to take my eyes off her for a minute just to do something small like putting the kettle on as I was spending probably half of waking hours, or more going out and coming in to go back out again. This has all added up to apparently creating a naughty dog acting like a princess. I have not for one minute doted on her I have shown her kindness but firm discipline. She has never been allowed to bite people, tear furniture or eat the cupboard doors, but she does. I have tried yelping, using marking words, rewarding, providing plenty of toys for play and distraction, ignoring her when demanding, plenty of outside play time. Socialisation with others. Safe places to sleep and play. I knew when I decided and purchased her that it was a big responsibility and it was important to be prepared to put the effort in, it wouldn't be easy but something you have to do to be a responsible owner and to make a good dog. This is what I thought I was doing. After this post I am finding a number for a trainer and that's where I am at. When I get a chance again I shall take some photos to include.

AS I said I am not going to try the drug method anyway. Yes she has been to the vets to have her booster and yes he did note how full-on she was. I strictly followed a couple of dog training websites about how to deter them from bad behavior and reward when they stopped doing it when told. But he feels that because she just continued to either bite or rip things she was using the behavior with the act of doing it . . .stopping it when told . . . getting the reward . . .and then going back and doing it again to get the reward. He believed shes too smart for reward system.

Ok thanks. The breeder I spoke to tonight on the phone said that we are not to give her anymore attention. The treats and the praise are to stop. He believes this could possibly have been what caused this type of behavior. He said whilst we were trying to stop the bad behavior by stopping her from biting us, ripping the lounge etc, and redirecting her elsewhere. and treating the stopping, we were rewarding her for bad behavior and encouraging her all the more. He said when she is in the crate it has to be somewhere separate like a garage and to try it tomorrow in daytime to not disturb the neighbours, and leave her in there for up to 3 hrs as she will be safe. He also suggested us going to the vet and getting some tablets to use occasionally so as we can have her sleep and we also get some sleep. I am not mad about this idea and would prefer to probably not try this approach. Anyway tomorrow is a new day to start afresh.

Ok and thanks to all replies. We will have to fence off a part of the yard that will be safe for her to have independent outside time. I have made the kitchen the safe room as it is the only one that doesn't have furniture she can chew through. I am trying with the crate again tomorrow but in the daytime first not to make it too hard on our neighbours. I will have a trainer organized before the end of the day tomorrow to come and help us with correcting and learning how to properly train her. I did not buy a Labrador puppy expecting her to be immediately calm. I am aware that all puppies take a great deal of patience and work. I chose the breed for the possibility of grandchildren over the next 5 years, and knew of their gentleness and good character. I appreciate all advice offered and the time taken to do so. Mogda

H and thanks for advice. I have emailed the breeder and he responded with plenty of information. He seems to think I have created the problem, and hopes that it is not too late to change things around. I am a little confused because all I have done is what I followed in his booklet we got when purchased the pup. I reprimand her and try and reward her when I can. I have done all the things I have read about toilet training. I have supplied many soft toys and other doggie toys for her to play with and use to distract her from the biting. I have not spoiled I believe just trying to constantly distract her from biting barking and going to the toilet everywhere inside. She has plenty of outside time on leash. I am just totally confused. He wants me to put her in a crate away from everyone, no treats, and put her out in yard on her own for longer periods. I am concerned about that as in everything I have read it says young pups should not be left unsupervised in crates or on their own whilst outside in case they hurt themselves or eat something out of the garden that could be dangerous. I have to give him the benefit of the doubt though as he is a breeder/trainer so he must know what he is talking about. He is calling tonight so hopefully I will get a better idea of what's what after that. Thanks for help. Mogda.

Thank you yes I will definitely contact K9Pro and I have emailed the pups breeder to check in with him too. Yes I am sure you are right about them being great dogs. I have never owned a Labrador myself but I have had people close to me that have owned them in the past and I know they are a beautiful dog.

Ok thanks bushwoman. I have not spoken to the 'breeder' I bought the puppy from as I presumed he would not be of help to me as it would be the whole "let the buyer beware" and he would just say well the puppy was ok for me. The fellow I purchased the puppy off gave me photocopies of the parents but about hip and elbow scores etc. We never got the chance to see the litter or his kennels as he would only meet us as a vantage point to view pup and purchase if we wee happy with what we saw. My son was desperate for a puppy and this breeder was the only one that had pups available before the end of November/December xmas time. Because my son has had a very tough year and a pup was recommended as good therapy I was keen to get that in motion to help him. I believed/hoped as his advertisement and details about his kennels were on dogzonline, and he provided copies of papers he must be legitimate. I had mentioned to the breeder in an initial email how our last dog we had for 14 yrs was a small breed dog with small dog issues I was looking for a good quality purebred with calm and gentle personality. He came back with the picture and details of this pup and that there was much interest and we would need to make a decision. I have started to feel some concern about the legitimacy of my purchase of this pup. I have the patience and am prepared to put in any work that's needed but I do feel that whatever I am capable of doing to help this pup become a good dog is not enough, and your suggestion re a behaviouralist is probably right.

I forgot to ask in my extensive previous post. When it is mentioned about putting the puppy in a play pen for some play time when you have to be out of the room for a little while; what type of play pen is meant? Do I buy the sort of play pen a toddler would be in with the mesh type sides? If so wouldn't the pup chew through the mesh and surrounds? Or is there a proper play pen for larger pups available to purchase?