herding_guy

I actually like a pup who does this...it shows that they are sensitive souls.

Excitement and submission are both reasons as Haven explained. I never worry about it as they usually grow out of it.

I sometimes go to a friends kelpie stud and whene I great some of his dogs, who know me well, they let go of a small amount of urine. It is just them "saying hello "boss" glad to see you, I'm no threat just just a friend".

You see wild canids doing it when greeting higher order pack members.

I have a 5 and a half month old kelpie pup who has a humping thing at the moment. He meets plays then humps. He humps big dogs, small dogs and other pups. If I see him I just pick him up by the scruff of the neck (nicely & saying nothing) and place him back on all 4's. It seems to be working....he isn't doing it as much now.

This pup is in no way a "dominant" dog. I don't think that it is a "dominance" thing in every case. Some pups find it enjoyable and give it a go whenever they can....wouldn't you if you were a male pup?

I've got a query though!

Is this what the Labs that are drug detection dogs get to do once they've indicated their suspicions??? I was watching Border Patrol on TV last night and noticed a towel object they got as a reward after indicating a possible drug haul.

Just a query!

IF they are active reward dogs, the answer is yes.

HG, sorry to pick one section of your post. Hard??? (as in recovery time/sound nerves), do you mean insensitive. The best workers from my experience are bold/hard, but sensitive dogs? Otherwise I suppose, they would have killed themselves in puppyhood.

I do think verbal translation, not only between different breeds,different countries and requirements confuse the WHOLE meaning.

All of the above a)recovery time/sound nerves, b) insesitive plus c)game and d)honest. Sorry should of been clearer.

Believe me Scout almost killed himself many times through to adulthood and is still trying................gotta love that dog.

If training in drive and the dog is shaking the toy like that when he 'captures' it, it could mean he is not getting enough drive satisfaction from the game and he's trying to make the toy more 'alive' if that makes sense?

Tossing the prey item is seen in wild canid pups and feline kittens it helps them develop other predatory drive motor patterns. Domesticated dogs have been bred for 1'000's of years to be more puppy like and these puppy like behaviours have been hypotrophied through artificial selection.

For example my more serious working dog Scout never plays like my non working dog Dylan. Dylan will play for hours shaking / tossing / shaking / tossing like a pup does but can't herd even though he is extremely high prey drive and gets lots of drive satisfaction. Scout on the other hand never plays like Dylan he will instead pick up a toy and bring it to me to bring it to life. Both have been grounded very much the same way by me. IMO the difference is that Scout has been bred from a very long line of hard working dogs (not bidable dogs) that heve been bred to work in extreme conditions whereas Dylan hes been bred more for domestication and human friendliness. They both have extremely high prey drive it is just that they have been bred for different parts of the prey drive motor pattern sequence and different levels of bidabillity

I'm training my GSD in drive and he used to sometimes toss his head around with the ball after he'd captured it. Now we're further into the training it's every single time. Will have to ask K9 Force K9 Force about that as perhaps he's needing more drive satisfaction

The poor boy goes BONKERS when he sees that particular toy now. And when I go out into the backyard with him, if I don't have the toy he picks up the nearest thing that could be a toy...like a small piece of string/small rock/peg/anything he can find (?!) and tosses it around

Your GSD is just exhibiting one motor pattern in the predatory drive sequence. He has either learned to do it or it is one of those genetic "talents" ie GRAB-BITE / SHAKE. It is still part of the predatory drive.

I am more confused by the question "....perhaps he's needing more drive satisfaction" and am interested in hearing what K9 Force might like to add. To me predatory drive in a high prey drive dog like a working/herding bred dog is almost inexhaustable. The dog has to be physically incapable to "hunt", for want of a better word, to stop him wanting to experience prey drive (which is not a good point to get the young dog to by the way) . It's like a drug to them.... they are like prey drive junkies cant stop, cant stop, cant stop (internally rewarding)......so how can a dog like this be satisfied. The trick is letting them experience, channeling, manipulating and training behaviours in prey drive so the dog is rewarded internally and you are the coreographer.

Hope this makes sense.

Is there some kind of 'meaning' for it? I know it's probably got something to do with the dog 'killing' their prey once they've caught it, but does it mean anything as far as drives go?

I play a game with my Rottweiler Daegon, it's the towel game. He has one special towel that he's allowed to run at and grab and tug at a bit before I release it for him. He lurrrrves it. After he's 'won' the towel he gives it a really hard shake, he's done this at 8 1/2 weeks old as well. Then after he's 'killed' it he keeps hold of it in his mouth and comes and stands next to me with it and sometimes shoves it back at me as if to say "again mum, again!"

I use it as a motivator to get him up and excited about something (as well as the famous broom bashing game :rolleyes:). He gets really revved up about it and just loves working in that kind of way.

So, just wondering if there's anything to it in the way of drive, or his possible work potential?

Head shake is a particular motor pattern in the predatory drive sequence in some canids. It is a variation of Kill - bite. Some of my dogs have the kill bite and some shake bite. Kill bite is a suffocating and strangling move and shake bite tears flesh and bleeds the prey to death in wild canids.

Lovely isn't it?

Thanks, not good enough for a qualifying leg for our second level title, but we're getting there.

There are a few photos of the day that can be seen here.

Great photos.

I can see by these photos you are in desparate need of some kelpie competition from the deep dark south

Looking forward to it.

Cheers,

Dave

Here is another Victorian with a frisbee mad dog.

I always hoped frisbee would come to Vic one day.

That's great so far I have at least 7 handlers and 10 dogs that are keen. Anyone else?

I do agree to a degree. I cannot help wondering though, if your training program does not change as such, especially with your own dogs who, I should imagine do not have many bad habits? Sure every dog has strengths and weaknesses, and we do learn from each but all the same, we can change behaviour, but cannot change genetics, drive and nerves etc.

I agree every dog is different but the exercises, drills and eventual concepts do not change. At least I find this, with training my labradors for retrieving trials. Hunting in comparison is easy.

Ha ha my dogs have lots of bad habits that's what I love about them!

Sit & name is taught the same for all my dogs for this is the first things I teach. From then on it's building up the dog, letting the dog find it's feet so to speak.

Your right the "exercises" are similar but every dog is taught a little to a lot differently. For example a "walk in" for one may be taught dry (off sheep) while another on sheep. A drop may be necessary for one dog but not for another. Recalls are taught with food for some and with toys or more sheep on another. Timing of teaching individual commands comes when the dog tells me he / her is ready.

If I could train a dog (or mark) a specific behaviour / talent to give me a more efficient worker or trialler I would. It may be a behaviour that has never been seen before and therefor not trained for before and may give me an edge. For example I taught Scout a head low which helps me keep stock calm in certain situations....it works for him but not another dog maybe because of his size, intensity. It's unconvetional but it works. This is how the herding "sport" or work develops and evolves. Nowhere in the rule book does it say I cant make my dog jump up in the air and do a back flip to make the sheep run up the race quicker...if it works do it (sure would look funny, huh).

Today I had 2 pups from the same litter both very similar in style but one is serious and ready for some pressure while the other is still just having fun. THe two will be trained very differently.

I suppose I don't have a formal training regime I just go with my gut / heart and flow with the dog ......it's more fun for me and the dog that way.

Although I must admit I have found certain methods that I have stuck with throughout just altered a little for each dog.

Do you think you can't change/alter drive levels? Some think that through early life ground work you can build drives up, but who can gauge this?

So I guess my answer to the OP question is - give me the dog and I'll tell you what I've change as I go.

Hope I've made some sense

From all my dogs and every dog I've trained....I let them tell me what I need to change, alter or do differently.

I learn from every one of them.

Contact one of our gurus (Karen or Damian Noud) and discuss it with them. They singled-handedly brought the sport to Australia from the US. They run the Australian Canine Disc Association which would be who your club would be affiliated with if that's what you wanted to do.

You'd probably need to get a couple of people to come up, get trained and accredited as judges/instructors.

The more competition the better!

ML .....email sent this could be the start of something great.

Hey lets go for it - if the VFL can create the AFL, we could give this a go and have a national comp. Besides, I could do with a trip to QLD.

ML how many teams do you have, or does everyone compete individually?

Okay who else in Vic is interested.....let's get some numbers.

Would love to go, Pippi loves playing Frisbee, but QLD is a bit too far. As fas as I know we don't have these comps in Vic unfortunately. Hope you all have a great time.

Pippi,

maybe we should start the Victorian branch got 4 frisbee fanatics in my camp.

ML what do you think about us Mexicans starting a team up?

I am so so so deeply sorry to hear about this.

Give me a call anytime even if it's just to have a cry.

Dave.

K9...... When scout was attacked, is it possible that he would have gone into a drive peak (defence I'm guessing) and therefore have no data recording of at least a part of the situation? So as horrific as it would have been, he may not register all of it?

HG: I hope it's a speedy recovery for you both.

THis is what I'm hoping. So far he has shown no signs of changed behaviour around my other dogs and seems to be more attentive towards me. To him it may have just been another day at work with a feral ram or bull.

Your well wishes are appreciated, thank you.

K9: It will be imperative that you be yourself as you were before...

HG: No problem there, but some say I can be a little too confident something I need to be aware of I guess.

K9: Make it a game.

Good trainers always win the game...

There is only one sure way to win every game.....

Cheat...

THe rules of sheep herding teaching and training - I follow.

THanks again.

Scout was attacked while herding/working? Sorry, I had no idea.

No, he wasn't actually herding but in his mind scouting for stray sheep - so he was in work mode.

The event did happen on private property where my sheep stray to ocassionally, not on our normal training grounds.

Scout is looking great and the good news is the pup I kept from the last litter, Mouse, is showing a lot of his dads attributes apart from the arrogance (yet)

HD: He will not be able to work for another 3 weeks so I'm taking him for walks around te farm including the are that the incident happened.

K9: not a good idea, since the event you dont want to change his life style, other wise the event will be a "life changing" one... Work or spell...

He got a small amount of round yard work yesterday. I'll give him a little more today.

HD: Crikey - I did everything I could to protect him. I don't feel our relationship has changed.

K9: & Im sure you did a fine job, probably saved his life, but in the above quote, there is a lot of "I's"... He may not see it that way. Dogs dont use logic...

Dogs become aggressive after an attack largely because they feel they have to protect themselves as you didnt (according to them)..

Yes he's snapshot of the event does include a lot of me. I will not know how I will react when another dog comes into the picture but experience tells me I'm usually pretty calm.

Thanks again.

K9: HG, I read the thread & have to say I am sorry for what has happened to you & your dog. I can only imagine having to bury those men if that were me....

Thank you - but I'd bury them alive.

With your dog being 24 months plus?, we can only hope that his temperament had developed into a solid, less volatile state & that this incident will have no effect...

What I would do...

If he is physically able, I would take him & work him on some sheep, push him & give him a hard day... Reward that day with some quiet time with you at the end, no other people or dogs. This reflection time can be therputic.

He will not be able to work for another 3 weeks so I'm taking him for walks around te farm including the are that the incident happened.

We have to make sure that your Alpha status isnt damaged as he thinks you didnt protect him...

Crikey - I did everything I could to protect him. I don't feel our relationship has changed.

Give him x amount of days break then, (x amount is a few days more than he is used to) Then give him another hard day.

After that hard day, take him to meet some people, have them look like the guys did on the day, clothing, etc etc..

View how he looks at them in this state (tired drive satisfied etc)

Its now that you will be able to see how he, as a working dog will be effected.

x amount might be a problem seeing he works an awful lot but I can see your point - Looks like I've gone from a 16 hour day to a 20 hour day - no prob for me Scouty.

Once you know this I can give you the next steps...

I'll be in touch and thank you.

Dave

As some of you are aware my 3year old Aust. Working Kelpie was attacked by another dog. A deliberate attack 3 times. He may also hold some negative images towards the actions of the men who attacked me at the same time.

My concerns are the mental pictures and therefore behaviour problems that may follow.

I now want to plan a program for his mental rehabilitation (and mine). Could all you experienced people out there give me some ideas and case studies that you may have to help me.

Thanks in advance.

Now HG, come on .... fess up. I've seen you with your purse.

and I thought you never noticed.

What? You spit food from your ears and nostrils too?

:D No, this is a Herding Guy thing, he's multi-skilled. Should have been a woman!

Then I could stick treats in other interesting places.....................................................

........................like my purse.

Have you tried the ears and nostrils as well????

What? You spit food from your ears and nostrils too? :D

Yes as you are fully aware Erny, I'm very talented. :D

My father , now 85, grew up un the land and always worked dogs. Had mainly BC's and kelpies.

He said that BC were easier to train because they "wanted " to please you.

Said that kelpies were a little stubborn and had more a mind of their own. I know it's an old debate but he thought kelpies were smarter but harder to train. A few times he said a kelpie would disobey him but usually they were right-maybe getting an animal he couldn't see -they would have a good reason to disobey and would disobey if they "thought " they were right.

This is very true( however there are always exceptions to the rule). I once was out with a gang of dogs, 3 young dogs (kelpies) all around 2 - 3yo and one old timer 12yo, herding a mob of 50 cattle. As the young dogs were working and doing an okay job I kept trying to send the 12yo out to join them but he refused and wouldn't leave my side for about an hour. All of a sudden the mob broke up and all 3 young dogs ran after the couple of bulls at the back of the mob and the lead cow made a break for a gateway to the open paddocks where I didn't want them to go. The 12yo suddenly bolted to the gateway and blocked their passage turning them back onto the right path. Once this was done he returned to my side and left it all to the youngsters. SMART DOG.

Oh stop being grossed out people, there is nothing wrong with spitting food

An excellent method for keeping focus but as Erny mentioned, you need to teach the dog to catch first. I put food in both hands as well as in my mouth. I hide my hands behind my back and alternate between each hand and mouth - this keeps my dog guessing :D Of course I use things like cheese or cabana.

Kavik your new fur baby has finally arrived....pics please!!!!!!!

I too have used this method for food driven dogs.....love it, it's the quickest way to teach and maintain focus for some dogs. Have you tried the ears and nostrils as well????

Yes Kavik where are the photos??? (although I've already met him)