Lesley

Looking forward to pics dogcop. Below is a response that I received after pasting the original post of Steve's into the Saint thread.

All great ages and wonderful to hear about. You seem to have longevity in Evie's lines Sags. Sadly it is Osteosarcoma and Heart probs that seem to take most of our aged giants to the bridge. Come on everyone who responded to the survey please add to this post. I am on a mission now and want to find at least one Saint down under who hit the 14 years mark in good health. Edited to apologise to dogcop for the course of this thread. Birthday pics of your boy are a must please!

WOW! That response is amazing, and I am aware that you are unable to divulge facts, but quite incredible. It would be interesting to do the same survey through the registerd breeders and owners, also with a lie detector on board! As I said, many are protective of poor exposure in regard to health, so boost up the stats with the positives. It will be interesting to see if anyone replies through the Saint thread. It know it makes your job very hard Steve. Thanks for your consideration in reply. Lesley

A VERY SPECIAL to your GRAND VETERAN Saint dogcop. It doesn't matter what your opinion of his breeding is, :D hey you still have him with you, so a huge congratulations to you both for the wonderful life you have shared together. Don't know where you got those stats from Steve? I was the secretary for the Qld Saint club for many many years and in the 90's we conducted a survey here that showed the average age being 4.5 years at that time. This survey did include those euthanised due to HD along with other hereditary diseases, but they had to be included. I have never known of anyone in Australia that had a Saint reach 14 years! I wish I did, for what a wonderful feat. There was a breeder at Coffs Harbour called Ann Wright, who bred under the prefix 'Jeaga' and Ann had a few saints that reached 12 and one that made 13. A lady here in Qld called Jean Goodwin (who had Saints with lineage down from Ann's Jeaga prefix) also had a mother and daughter that reached 11 and 12 years respectively, but I have heard of few others. I know that Debbi Egglestone's Lena reached 12 years and she was her oldest ever and she just made it too. Joanie Mae at nearly 10 is our oldest and I certainly consider 10 years a blessing. Joanie Mae and her litter sister Julia are the 2 oldest at Bernedale now. The Qld club acknowledges and awards a veteran at 7 years and a GRAND Veteran at 10 years and I currently have the record book in front of me with only 4 having reached that staus in the clubs history. And I might also add that of those 4, none of them saw 11 years. I certainly wish that our breed did have a longer life span as it is one of the negatives. Yes, I have heard of Saints overseas in the colder climates living to be 14 years, although that too is VERY RARE, and I would not say that any had a wonderful quality of life at that age, I have been told that they were very slow and showing arthritic signs. Yes, I participated in your survey as did others I have spoken to. Sadly some have admitted that they only included their Saints that did NOT have health probs as they did not want the image of the breed portrayed poorly. Yet another example of a survey that would not give factual stats:- which I know is not your fault, but only that of those who participated. And I can also empathise with any enthusiasts protective traits towards one's own, even if they are inadvertently creating an injustice by doing so! I have also sadly seen some hang onto their kids just to reach that 10 year milestone, and then let them go to the bridge having achieved it. Right or wrong I am not passing judgement, it is a situation one can only make themselves when put in that position. Our girl at very nearly 10 years has a relatively good quality of life other than she is a bit huffy and puffy. Her litter sister shows no huffy puffy signs but does not move around as much, but they are both incredibly wonderful for their age in our opinion. I would be both naive and selfish to expect anything greater from this breed, but I do proudly acknowledge that every day they give to us, is OUR blessing! So yes it happens, BUT RARELY! I would like to know if anyone in Australia has had a Pedigreed Saint reach a good quality of life at 14, I will also cut and paste this into the Saint thread to ask around? Cheers and thanks for taking an interest, Lesley

Thanks for the replies everyone. Fleas are apparently a taboo subject, a bit like admitting your child has nits, but both are a fact of life unfortunately. Yes I have bombed our house and the kennel, have sprayed all around with nucidol, sprayed their beds with nucidol and have washed their bedding in it, I have used capstar and all are frontlined. I even rang a proffessional pest control today asking about flea treatment, and this was his reply! "Lady if you have money to waste, then I will come out and treat your property, but trust me, it is just that the rain has brought them in." He also said that the worst thing one can do under this situation is to get your carpets cleaned right now, because apparently if there are flea egss in the carpet the warmth from the liquid to clean the carpets will make them all hatch and make matters worse. He said the best thing to do is vaccuum twice daily and keep things as dry as you can. And that is from someone who advertises flea treatments under his pest control advert. I will try the Comfortis, thanks aussielover for recommending it. :cool: Knowing the problem is as it is, I will try anything.

I too have a Lumix. I dropped my old camera on Christmas Day and discovered that they don't bounce. I went into Harvey Norman to be told that it would cost more to repair and I was better off getting a new one. The Lumix I was looking at was $699 at HN and so I went to Wow where I was given a price of $649. I looked on ebay with no luck and then a workmate suggested I buy from Hong Kong on the web. Got the same camera for AUD $214, added a case for 99 cents, and a 16gb memory card for $60. I paid with paypal on a Sunday evening and fedex delivered to me on the following Wednesday. Fantastic!

Need I say more!

After being away for 3 weeks and no dogs being in our yard, we came home yesterday to a flea invasion on our back patio. Have sprayed and sprayed and sprayed everything so fingers crossed! Have been told the rain has brought them all in after a hot Summer, is anyone else having the same problems? IF so, can you let me know what works.........cos frontline sure as hell isn't.

Many years ago a very experienced breeder told me that if puppies have had good mothering, then they will be good mothers. We had a litter of 11 and the bitch (first time mum) was scared of her own puppies and wouldn't have anything to do with them. The litter consisted of 10 dogs and only 1 bitch who was the last one born. Being the only girl we ran her on for 7 months, and she was a sweet little girl but what we call a nothing wonderful puppy, so was desexed and went to a pet home. The second time around the same bitch was a wonderful mum and produced a litter of 8 consisting of 5 dogs and 3 bitches. Our current old girl only had 2 litters and was a lousy mum on both occasions. She considered herself too high and mighty for menial nursemaid tasks. There was no cleaning dirty bums from her, so they were all wet wiped. Her babies would be crying in the whelping box and she would be lying on the lounge next to them but no way was she going in and having those little gremlins chewing off her. That litter consisted of 3 dogs and only 1 bitch, who was titled but later desexed and pet homed. Her second litter produced only 2 live puppies and her maternal skills were not much better, although this time she would clean their faces when they graduated to a puppy porridge meal. (YUM) The little girl from that litter was incredibly beautiful and our hopes to carry on with. She titled, but sadly passed away too early. Pictured with her Mum in my avatar, it broke my heart to lose her for she was very very special to us. And who knows, she may have been lousy in the mothering department also.

I can't find it? Can someone please add the link????????

Hi Grace, If are buying from a reputable breeder you should be supplied with a puppy info pack which will provide you with all dietary requirements relevant to the different growth stages. Most reputable breeders will also give their puppy buyers a take home kit to start them off. I agree with all here that you should not skimp on food for a giant breed whilst growing. Their muscles are stretched to capacity as their bones grow and they need the premium foods to assist with their development at this vital stage of their lives. This is also a serious issue that needs much thought prior to obtaining a giant breed, as everything is dearer. Meds for Heart Worm, Drontal, Frontline and basically all vets bills for general antibiotics are giant sized, a regular course of antibiotics will be around a hundred dollars for a Saint. Food bills are at the max whilst a Saint is growing but when they reach adult sized it balances out. If you allow $100 a week you should be pretty ok to cover all. And if you can't afford the associated costs then work this out now prior to committing your care to a Saint as far too many of them end up in rescue situations when their owners can no longer afford to keep them. I pesonally have know of Saints that needed surgery and their owners could not afford the vets bills so had them put to sleep, I have rescued myself ones that were starving and literally bags of bones as their owners could no longer afford to feed them their required amounts. Also, along with owning a giant breed, comes the heartaches associated with any giant breed, hip dysplasia, elbow displaysia, epilepsy, bone cancer and heart disease, just to name a few associated probs. Most good ethical and reputable breeders will sell their puppies with a written health guarantee in the event that if something goes wrong they will offer you some form of compensation and support but there are also many shonky ones out there who mate a dog to a bitch and basically haven't got a clue what they are doing. I hope that you have researched the breed and breeders thoroughly prior to your purchase and that your baby is from a reputable breeder who will stand by you if things go wrong. And if that is the case, allow yourself to be advised by your breeder and then you know in your own heart and mind that you have done all the correct way as requested by him or her. If you change recommended dietary needs yourself, then breeders will NOT stand by you if things go worng and you have nothing to fall back on if cases of HD or any other nasties that may occur.

If they're still transporting unquarantined pound dogs in the same dog trailers with other dogs, I'd not touch them with a barge pole. To be honest, I never asked. Dog has had vacs. Do airlines only fly showdogs that live on their own? I'm with you poodlefan! My last experience re road transporters has been made known in a like post under transport, but I'm not targeting any one particular firm! Skanky mutts too young for vaccination in the next berth and our dog covered in faeces and urine and too weak to stand when we got him out. Air transit is quick and trouble free, only prob for us is that Virgin won't fly our guys anymore, (beat that for discrimination against the giant breeds cos we used to fly them Virgin) and with Qantas, the last time we flew a dog (with us travelling too I might add,) and it was $600 each way for the one dog! (His Specialty BIS win did help ease some of the pain! ) We only drive them ourselves now!

She's teething! The kids will soon learn!

Our first ever Saint, (pick of the litter, show quality) was a monorchid. Shonky breeder told us that it was down when we collected him but they sometimes go up and down. Yeah right, when he was desexed he came home with an incision in his groin and another right down the centre of his belly. The retained testicle that went up and down was found under his rib cage! Was NEVER in any position ever where it could have gone up and down.

He does have a great temperament, as do his brothers and sisters. Big dopey slobbery sooks all of them. They took after their Dad, who was the biggest goober head of them all.

As long as rules haven't changed since I last discussed this problem, I believe what you have been told is correct. But you have to sum up the facts! As he will be noticed immediately, but remembered as the beautiful baby with only one knacker. Are you very optimistic that it will come down??? And if there is an element of doubt, why not wait and put him in the ring then. I have known many a case where the 'can't accept the fact' breeder/owner, feels that undescended testicle, and yet nobody else can! One particular case springs to mind of a lovely baby Saint with only one, he even took out a baby in group at a Royal and was never shown again for that very reason, once out of baby class. And when I last saw the same adult male, his owner lay him down and said to me "you feel it, it is there but it just keeps going up!" But alas there was nothing there at all that I could feel. I have also heard many judges' comment on babies that are lacking in that area, and even though age acceptable, they will not put them through because of such. So my own personal opinion is why draw attention to it? Wait......... and if it comes down all good and well, but if it doesn't, then no one is any the wiser!

I would recommend flying over road anyday. It is quicker and less stressful for your dog. I recently had to collect a dog that was sent up from Victoria via road. He was collected in Melbourne on a Tuesday evening and I don't believe had been out of the trailer until we collected him in Brisbane on the Thursday evening. The carrier opened the trailer door and I could see him inside, they then put the paperwork in front of me to sign and when we got him out he was so weak he was unable to stand and collapsed to the ground. I was in shock and my O/H had just had surgery and was unable to bend to help. I turned around to ask the carrier for help but they had hot tailed out of there quick smart. The dog stunk and was covered in faeces as they lie in straw which is soaked in their excretement. I saw two Samoan boys walking down the street and asked them if they would help lift him into the back of our ute and we had to roll a towel underneath him to help as he was in such a poor state. In the berth beside him was the tiniest corgi puppy and when I had asked how old he was the carrier said 8 weeks, but the new receiver told me just 6 weeks and not vaccinated! Worse still was that it was not the usual carrier we had dealt with before, that carrier was too busy so had taken it upon himself to just pass our booking over to another carrier. The whole ordeal was shonky and all they care about is the money they get, but definitely not the dogs. They could be carrriers of parvo and much worse and their lack of overall concern is disgusting. All they seem to care about is meeting a deadline, but not the animals they are carrying. So I don't care how nice anyone is when you deal with them to make a booking, they can be as friendly as all hell, but they are not the ones doing the driving and in care of YOUR cargo. The carrier had been in touch with my O/H via phone and another issue we had was that instead of doing the drop off as they usuallyy do, they made an out of the way trip to the north side of Brisbane and the airport to coincide with another collection (more $$$$$ for them) before we were able to collect him back on the south side again, which was an extra 3 hours for him in their stinking trailer. These carriers will change their designated route if they can squeeze in another, more profit with no concern for the extra time on whoever. When we first used carriers about 4 years ago they ensured us that the dogs were held in Sydney overnight where they were fed and allowed to run in a kennel situation before being loaded on to another carrier with a fresh driver the following day. But who would know what they factually do other than the dogs. They could tell any blarney to get a booking, but the state of our last victim said it all! Never again would I allow any animal on a carrier, EVER! JMHO from a bad experience!

Don't go! Stay with Sam.

Great Pics of all Rocco but I unashamedly admit I am a tad biased to the one the halo shines upon! I especially loved the b & w's and the last colour one is just Olympus in a nutshell. It is so nice to see our little Olly well settled in his new home.

Yep, we are fans of 4 x 2's also! We call them their 'dessert'! They LOVE them and they love to give us the reminder that they haven't had them yet. Ours get one after their tea each night and one each morning, and if they don't get them they will bark the entire neighbourhood crazy. We always keep a container of them in the car, especially when we go to weekend shows and we find them great overall when travelling in case the dogs go off their food, they are so easy to feed and will tempt even the fussiest of eaters. Never had an allergy prob ever and whilst travelling have given ours up to 8 per day depending on size. I did buy the 2 x 2's once thinking they would be better suited for our British bulldog but he manages quite ok with the 4 x 2's and so I never bothered again.

It has long been my argument that nobody has the RIGHT to tell another person what they should sell their puppies for. I see various breed clubs telling prospective purchasers that XX should cost only XX from a registered breeder and if charged any more they are being misled. What gives them the right to do this? Anything is only worth what somebody will pay for it. And if somebody is able to get more $$$ for something than another somebody, then obviously their marketing skills are better, or they have a more desirable product, or they just got lucky that day. I'm a big believer in what you get is what you pay for, but even I couldn't put a fair price on what I think my puppies (in either breed) are worth when I look at the time and energy and LOVE that goes into rearing them. And I have to confess that it BURNS me when I see lesser quality examples that haven't had half as much care put into them being sold for double or even treble what I manage to get. I'm not in it for the money at all, but why should a BYBer who has probably less than half of my knowledge of the breed or even animal husbandry manage to profit and on a continual basis when I'm scratching to find SUITABLE homes for my puppies maybe once per year (if that) and not just selling to the first person who comes along with cash in their hands? TOUCHE' ELLE VERY WELL SAID POST ! You have summed it all up perfectly!!

Well to us......Ours IS! He has given us way more than $3000 worth of love and pleasure, in fact there is no price I could ever place on his worth in our lives. We just feel sad that there is not enough time left for us to continue to shower him with the love he in return deserves from us, for we could never repay him for the joy he has given to us all. Our boy cost exactly half that amount over 10 years ago and we thought it was huge at that time. But now we don't, given that all the BB's he competed against have been long gone, we fully acknowledge that we paid for quality and we got it; not only in term of life (which no one can guaranteee,) but in health, which contributes to the term! And if I was after another BB, as I stated before, I would only buy from our breeder and if that was their asking price, I would pay it with no hesitation, because I know I would again be buying quality and with no breed associated health probs, from Highly Respected Breeders and NOT Nuff Nuff's and that is what I would be happy to pay for!!!! I guess it is like paying for peace of mind, or paying for a guarantee, because if their was a problem they would stand by you. I think the biggest problem facing every breed is that too many people decide to 'create' when they are in fact too ignorant to do such! Consequently they are breeding from crap that any knowledgeable breeder would deem pet quality, desex and rehome! Whilst many are out to do so just for the money alone, I do honestly believe that some start off with the best intentions, but they truly wouldn't know a good quality dog or bitch opposed to a bad one. They rely on what they have been told and if they have bought from a shonky creator themselves, of course they have been told what they have is super fantastic. I know of a 'creator that tells every person she sells a bitch puppy to that they should breed from it, and she also tells them when they are ready, to come back and see her and she will help them. And she does! She advises them to use one of her dogs as the stud dog ( a stud fee for her) then she helps whelp the litter (at the cost of one puppy for her) then when the first puppy is squashed because they don't understand how pedantic one must be and they have gone off to work and left them all lying with mum, she offers to care for the litter for them (at the cost of another puppy for her) and then when they are costing a fortune to feed she hands them back. By this time the 'new creator' is a bit shell shocked and wants to offload this bundle that are pooing end peeing everywhere, laying in it and stinking their house out, so the original creator then offers to pass on puppy names she has already got...yeah you guessed it at another percentage fee for her! Some of these people have their hand in everything and the quality being produced is just shit! I recently had a novice breeder tell me that she was going to breed and how this person was going to help her. I said do you really think your bitch is worthy of having a litter and she informed me that yes her creator said she was of very good quality. I said well why don't you show her and let the judges decide, and she said to me , quote, Oh NO, "Joe Blog" has told me not to, because she said that they are all crooked and only people who sleep with judges win! So I can well see why many are raising their prices and also often refuse to sell to the nuff nuff's! The ones I feel sorry for are the unknowing buyers that haven't done their homework, don't know one breeder from another and pay huge prices for crap that will keep their vets in cream cakes and be in an urn 5 years down the track! Moreso I feel for the poor little life itself, destined to die all too young and suffer at the expense of a greedy moron who didn't know they should have done some study to obtain basic breed knowledge prior to making a few dollars! :D Edited to add that I would also be more than happy to pay the same amount for another Saint bitch if I got the quality I currently have now.

I have highlighted the above part of your post I wish to make reference to! Touche' Steve~! Very well written post. IMHO, I might further add that as well as the govt. do gooders stating when and when we may not wipe our bums so to say, one of the biggest nightmares in any breed are the uneducated BYB's Call them what you like, (I call them nuff nuff's cos they are double nothings IMO :D ) they are the ones to blame for a huge percentage of pricing probs. I have always said that there are breeders and there are creators and never muddle one with the other. Any moron can create a litter and too many are doing just that. Their only knowledge of what they have is that their anatomy connects! Woo Hoo! A breeder learns first! They study pedigrees, read breed related books, attend breed seminars and speak to people that have been in the breed for many many years in order to educate themselves BEFORE making the conscious decision to place a litter on the ground. They don't just buy a dog and a bitch and put them together. Just maybe this is why so many well respected breeders are now charging amounts that they can........to place themselves aside from the nuff nuff creators! And the respected breeders get their asking, because they have well earnt their reputation. If I wanted another BB, the only breeder I would go to is where we got our boy from. And I think it would be the same with most breeds, the respected breeders usually don't need to advertise puppy sales. Getting away from BB's but in my chosen breed I recently saw an advert for puppies containing the biggest amount of hoo haa one would ever see and from a breeder I do not have any regard for. The line in the ad that got me the most was:- pick of the litter $3000, all others $2000. Firstly I ask who's pick? Every puppy buyer that selects a puppy COULD be told the one they chose was the pick! Secondly, what places one puppy's value 1/3 greater than every other puppy in the litter? Surely if this were so, their creator would be keeping that puppy for herself! Doesn't add up. But she keeps spitting out these puppies and sells to the unknowing buyers. And sadly she is not alone. I too often see registered 'creators' asking basic simple questions about the breed they are creating themselves All too sad that they are opting to put something on the ground and don't even understand or have knowledge of genetic probs behind them. One recently didn't even know what osteosarcoma was, despite it being one of the most prevalent forms of cancer within our breed. There are just too many with NO BASIC BREED KNOWLEDGE that are opting to create. As I have said before, I know it is very difficult and everyone has to start somewhere, but I think before coming a breeder, one should have to commit to say 5 years breed service, a bit like an apprenticeship! And in that time they need to do things such as welfare, working on a kennel club, 12 months on the hereditary disease committee, etc.etc. which would give them an eye opener to responsible breeding and who is and who definitely isn't! That would be a starting point. It would also make one take note of health probs and start to learn the lines, give them more contact with other breed enthusiasts who all have their own tale to tell in some form or another. At least then it would also give them a greater insight and if they are further inclined to learn they will then be inquiring enough to make themselves then research lines that interest themselves more thoroughly. I just can't understand why people choose to reproduce something they know nothing or very little about, other than that they love the one that greets them each day, unbeknown if it is a good breed specimen or not!!! I was always told as a child, if you are going to do something, do it properly or not at all! It's very easy to differentiate between those dedicated to the betterment of the breed and those bastardising the breed for their own financial gain. You get what you pay for........and people wonder why puppy prices are on the increase!!!

We did all this, got from a very reputable breeder, so many people told us how great she was, we did a lot of research into the breeder. The first time we rung her about a problem she told us not to be silly and that we were over reacting, the next time, she never bothered to contact us back, she was no help and we lost our boy at the age of 8 due to the problems he had with his heart That is really sad Teebs! I guess we can all only judge on what we have experienced ourselves, and our breeders have been great. And yes I acknowledge that we have not experienced any real negatives to learn otherwise, but I can't imagine it. It's always heart breaking losing a loved one, no matter at what age. I know having lost some Saints whilst they were very young I felt totally robbed! We were originally told a BB has a life span of between 7 and 10, so I guess even in your situation I would have been pretty happy with 8 good years. That's an enormous generalisation, so much so that it's probably rarely the case. Lately I've noticed a lot of older BB's (sometimes up to 5-6yrs) being sold for 3-4k which I find outrageous. I totally agree Clyde, it's wicked to charge that amount for any dog in their mature years. All the mature Saints I have just rehoused have been giveaways to the right home, and I truly think that is the most important issue. Any breeder who charges someone to love and feed and care for one of their older dogs, no matter what breed, should be extremely grateful that they are being given the wonderful opportunities they are getting to live their life out in comfort with a loving family. I understand your drift on this one......but personally I don't think it should have any relevance. It is a bit like saying sell the sickly puppies to the rich cos they can afford to treat them and the healthier ones go to the poor! I don't believe any breed should ever become one only for the elite and it would be a sad day in the dog world if they were all categorised! My son pushed shopping trolleys 2 nights a week starting when he was 14 to save up for his BB. We told him if he wanted one he had to earn it himself and he did. It took him 2 years, and he tells everyone that Chester has been the greatest addition to his life. I believe that every person has the right to purchase a healthy puppy and every puppy has the right to live in a healthy body. Breeders owe them nothing less!!! The fuss isnt the price its what you are getting for the price and I always say a dog is only wirth what you are willing to pay and if you are happy with the price then its all good.I have paid that and more for dogs and I am happy with what I got but I am not a newbie to dogs who got sold some line from a breeder and I would happily pay the price again and I am going to in the near future for a puppy.I would not pay that for a bb the fuss is the dog with so many problems you are getting for that money.Like souff said start saving now not just for the purchase but for the ongoing vet bill that you will have for the 5 years it is alive. Sorry, but our BB breeder has had a lot of bitches that have free whelped! Many years ago when he was in the ring, a very well respected judge commented to us after judging our boy, that if there were more BB's around like him, the breed would be in a much better situation. He further remarked that many are ok when they go around for their class but by the time they get their breed and then have to go out for group and show, they have often wilted somewhat, where as our boy looked like he would run for hours.........and he would! Even now he will run to our fence and bark at anyone loitering, and we are on acreage so it is a fair hike for him. But he has always done it, we didn't wrap him up in cotton wool and make him spend hours confined to keep him in 'ring condition'! I know what most are saying and I have seen examples like they are talking about, but I can't agree in reference to what we have experienced ourselves. When we told our Vet we were getting a BB even he tried to warn us off. He even showed us the thickness of a file from another client with a BB and he said to me you certainly know how to keep me in cream cakes don't you! Well all I can say is that we wouldn't have even kept him in wafers! Vaccinations and buying Drontal and Frontline have been our only issues other than a wasp/bee sting on his face....we never did find out what it was. Chester's file would be one of the smallest in the surgery I reckon.

What did she think she would have to pay? Initially I think she was thinking around the $1000 mark. Maybe she hasn't inquired for a long time. My son paid $1500 over 10 years ago. But you get what you pay for and we still have him with us today. My biggest gripe is that way too many are from BYB's, poorly bred and come with huge health probs. Consequently many an unknowing buyer spends outrageous prices purchasing and within 5 years they are staring at their much loved canine friend in an urn. Tell your friend to keep saving and research the breed carefully. Then if she is still interested, buy from a reputable breeder and she should share many years of happiness with her chosen breed. BB's are a pleasure to live with, they are delightful little clowns and will make you smile every day.