Alpha

Kristen44, Been there, done that, and I sympathize with you...as petsearch said be familiar with your councils regs although ours went against their regs and when pulled up on it just double talked their way around it anyway ;) I agree with the fact that the council will see you in the good light as you have already attempted to rectify the solution with the bark collar and other means. Keep your own diary when home of when your dog barks and why or if another neighboring dog barks. I would think that council would require a diary from the neighbor, but that did not stop our council acting without one with a nasty letter. You have a right to see a copy of the diary but be aware that they cannot/will not tell you who the complainant is ( like you cannot guess ) Compare it with any diary you may have for similar/same period and point out any discrepancies ( ie: neighbor stating dog was barking when you where out walking the dog or the dog was inside with you asleep...I love these ones) if the matter continues,you could go to mediation..that would show council that you seriously wish to resolve the issue. Dispute Resolution Centres are FREE and fantastic, we did it with our complainants( much to their wonder) and two of the four decided it wasn't so much barking anyway and only signed the complaint to be a "good neighbor" to the others and they other two we got to sign an agreement that they would approach us if the dogs were annoying them. WIN/WIN council has no more complaints to deal with and when they do , council refer them to the agreement they signed and they don't approach us because "they don't like us and we are unapproachable" :p ;) GOOD LUCK!!!

Cry not for me , For I am content At peace, at rest, Free. Miss me please, For I will miss you The ear rubs, cuddles, games and walks, All are with me for eternity. Speak of me often, Words help to heal, Memories stay with you forever And laughter will help you understand. Remember me well, For photographs fade with light Yet snapshots of your mind remain forever today. I was but a small part of your life But you were my life, All I did was for you and with you. Now I ask you remember me With a knowing smile And I will wait for you forever At the rainbow bridge. S. Hatton,2006

Insofar as retiring from competition, it depends on the dogs abilities and physical needs for their age. Gem works a like dream (always has) but I was concerned about joint damage as she bolted about an agility course as she was 7 yo, so we slowly withdrew from it. She's happy working a ring, loves the attention ( I'm sure) on vets advice after x rays, she had a course of Cartrovin at 7 to help starve off the onset of any joint/arthritic problems. MY instincts stopped me jumping her at 8...didn't and hasn't stopped her!!! I retired her from obedience competition at 9. At 14 yo, she still does her best heeling when she goes to the "retired" comps at club fundays and when she has an audience. She strains at the lead to get to near the agility equipment and I see the longing in her eyes as she watches Lawson. I might have retied her too soon...I'll never be sure, I know she loves it and if she ever showed signs of not liking it..I'd stop. I really think she's one of those dream dogs who love to do things with you. We still muck about with scent discrimination and such, heeling is is for crowded places, walking nicely in front is reward for being elderly. Retrieving ANYTHING is a game for her to teach the children...."You must take the article from my mouth AFTER I sit, not before or I must return from whence I came and we have to start again" Know your dog, and you'll know when

I can sum it up in one phrase...green eyed , someone does not like it that so many of us can think outside the square and can see the sense in methodologies advocated and taught by the likes of Erny and Denis. How truly juvenile and unwarranted.

The kid's only 10 (actually 11) but I forget my kids have grown up around dogs and know what you mean when you say " papers", "breeder", etc. Feel free to use the paper in the laundry quip, Jed...I only repeated what she said.

I thought as much but I don't proclaim to know it all, glad to hear that it's not the norm or even that acceptable. I will put her on the right track this afternoon regarding it. I did think it'd be damn annoying too. The child was bought the pup by her parents for a birthday present, mum and dad know little about dogs but got an indoor dog. I can't get much info from this kid as when I asked if she got him from a breeder...she said yes, a lady with lots of puppies I asked if the dog had papers and she told me they put paper down in the laundry for the dog :rolleyes: , when I explained about papers, she said he has have them for his needles Just now when she dropped by with the dog, she told me he was "between 4 and 9 weeks old" I explained he could not be 4 weeks old ( too big IMO) and he's be too young to leave his mum. I have explained to her about the face blowing and she seems to get it, doesn't seem to be overly "bitey" anyway. I know what you mean, PW, I used that method too but this is a CKCS with a small muzzle and I wouldn't like this kid grabbing this dog too much ( she was a bit too heavy with the "hands on" with Lawson as a pup and I had to stop he a few times) I have told her she needs to tell him firmly,in a deep voice "No" not shout or yell. I even showed her with Lawson a few times( bought him inside already revved up ;) ) SO thanks again everyone

Purely trainable to a manageable level - I too don't think that there can be a complete 'cure' for the dog - but appropriate management can be achieved. I agree with this comment...training to a manageable level or even a level where the dog "switches on" for work but you would still have to be cautious at other times. Have been there, done that and know someone with a now retired UD titled dog which could not cope with being approached by strangers due to maltreatment by previous owners but could work a ring, be approached by any judge or steward once in a ring..out of the ring a different story, very aggro. Yes, it is a lot of work on top of just training and teaching them the routines, you also have to have eyes in the back of your head and judge a class as you approach and ascertain where you will place you and your dog in the line up. Much of it comes naturally after a while and just is second nature, if you never know anything different ( and I did not until my second dog ) then it's just how it is for you and your dog.

I would've thought that the fact that you have taken the responsibility to A) decide to use a muzzle B) recognised and identified your dogs aggression and the triggers and C) have joined an obedience club which allows your dog to socialise in a controlled environment would've been enough for any instructor to see you know something and are taking steps towards what clubs are meant to help promote. I'm with others; put your case to the president or a letter to the training/instructors committee...alternative ( if feasible) find another club...they don't deserve responsible,and knowledgeable folk like you as members ;)

We had a Monopoly house swallowed a while ago, I called the vet ( distraught 10 year old kids are easily calmed with a call to a vet)and they have a database for size,age, breed, object that the nurse can look up and tell you whether to come in or "watch and sort" or apply soft food diet to help it pass. It was brilliant idea.

The little girl in our areahas got a a puppy. It 's Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, a lovely boy. However I noticed that when ever he mouths her ( he is only 9 weeks old) she blows in his face O asked her why she does this and she said the owner ( breeder) told her to when he bit Now I have not heard of this as a way to stop/limit puppies mouthing and have never used this method ( a stern "no" has sufficed) but I do know that years ago there was a dog at obedience club that was very aggro towards people and it was found the boy who owned him was blowing in the dogs face ;) I don't want to lead this kid on the wrong path as they seem to want to go to puppy school and have asked me about obedience training. So if any one could let me know about this I'd appreciate it

Well, lemme see, a decade ago when I started using mine many instructors at the club I belonged to had them, a lot of owners at the beach where i take my dogs have them or the other type ( one that goes under the tongue and is used by NZ herding team, which I also have one of). I get asked at training where I got mine and now I just hand mine off to any one who wants to look at it. Generally, any one who'd like to get their dogs full attention before calling it.

I have a "silent whistle" I got it years ago from a mail order place called Noonbarra Dog Supplies which doesn't seem to exist any more I'm told that my type is now very popular. This is the type I have. I find it very good for long distances and once the dog has trained to the it, they return on the sound alone. Initially I would use the whistle to get my dogs attention then call their name, now they come on the whistle...very handy if other dogs are about which you are unsure of or you are unsure of your dogs reaction ( as I had to be with Tolkien). The whistle also remove the chance the your dog is reading the anxiety in your voice when you call, something I was told was very obvious in me

I was introduced to the use of a prong collar about 14 years ago by a very well known and respected instructor. At the time our then 2 year old ACD had never been trained for anything and a walk entailed you being dragged about by this 22kg raging male hormone. I started obedience work and was told by one instructor that my dog would be better off dead as he was dog aggressive. This was not strictly true as my mentor was later to prove to me that it was only a particular type of dog whom he was aggressive towards and it more than likely related to being attacked as a pup by the same type of dog. That information in hand, we worked on his attention to me which was fine if he was not bored, we worked in short, rewarding spurts with exercises he was able to accomplish and lots of rewards. He was still head strong and reluctant to heel....over several months we tried many avenues; inclusive of a fixed collar in lieu of the then mandatory correction chain. We also tried a "halti" both with it connected tot he correction chain and without. Being determined to enter the obedience ring but with a recalcitrant heeler ...it was suggested we use a prong collar. I was shown the collar one afternoon at a training session which only a few of us attended, we were told how it worked and that it was not always along term solution, we were also told it was illegal, we all tried the collar around our own wrists to confirm that it did not hurt or injure. I was and always will be grateful for the information,training and advice I so freely got at the session ( and in later years it was reconfirmed at a K9 training session). I used a prong collar with great success over a decade ago, I only had to use it about 10 days ; I forget because the joy I got from being able to enter a trail ring 2 months later out weighed any thing before that. Even now with the myriad of training products, styles,methodologies and advice available I would still utilize such an aid again if the need arose and was needed.

Might get there, Dasha and will definitely be on the look out for you if I do.

Kelpie-i no apology needed.It s a forum, exchange of ideas,opinions and views. That's what I LUV about this place. Sorry to OP for highjack from topic at hand

Alpha, not sure if you've been around many farmers, but it's not so much the younger ones but rather the older ones who tend to act this way. Most of the younger farmers seem to be more inclined to have their working dogs trained and/or train them themselves. Unfortunately, it's mostly the older farmers that have neither the time nor the inclination to want to train their working dogs or to even re-train a problem dog. I once met an older gentleman farmer at Casterton who told us about the "reject pit" he had on his property which was nearly full of dogs which did not perform. The saddest part of this story was that he was at Casterton to buy 2 new dogs to replace the ones he had previously shot. Jesomil, not sure but is this what you're trying to say...? Obedience trialling or any form of trialling is a "sport" and as such, you do not derive an income or a living from this. It is purely done for one's own pleasure or status seeking. So to be rid of a dog that doesn't work in the obedience ring, whether it be due to training faults or dog's genetics is totally unfair. What about the dog who's job it is to contribute to the income of a family that just doesn't work out for the reason based on genetics ie. wrong temperament for the job etc? What do you do with this dog? Would you rehome a dog with strong working instinct as a family pet?? FYI Kelpie-i, farm born and bred, Gippsland if you must know, family are all farmers/primary industry: dairy, horse trainers, asparagus, potatoes, beef, sheep. My grandfather came from old Irish farming stock, studied vet sci and became a vet and Fellow at Melb Uni. I was putting forward on observation made by an very asute and knowledgable person in the area. You speak of one instance in relation to how many farmers and dogs?? My comment was a observation made be a person whom has more animal knowledge and accumulated resources than any one here, I think. Also more years on the clock I'd reckon I think most dogs are adaptable to work in another area of the "contibute to family income" scheme. A paddock dog can well be a better yard dog or vicea versa, some very wooosey dogs become perfect dogs for close contact/truck/guard work on market trips. Its a matter of thinking outside the square, I think.

An adgae my grandfather always uses when farmers ( often younger ones ) complain about non working/cattleshy /whatever dogs " A poor tradesman always blames his tools" Often faults can be attibuted to nothing more than bad luck or a glitch in the genetic pool...such things are proof of the falliablity of life, But animals bred to undertake a task who cannot/do not do so to the level of expectation of their owners/handlers...well, back to the drawing board for the owner /handler for a course in DOGGIES 101

Given that I intially did not set out with a plan except to do some work with my dog be it yard or obed or agility, once it was suggested I give it away as a lost cause...the decision was made for me. I never entertained the idea of NOT trailling or doing agility we were going to do it and did. Second dog I decided she was going to do it all too, whatever she excelled at (and she excelled and still does at it all) Again it would not have bothered me to modify/adapt/re learn new or diverse methods to train any dog...I'd never give up and could never re home. It s a square we work in but its called a ring...that's enough of an oddity to tell anyone that anything can work if you want it to.

Oh yes, that was exactly my experience! When I got my current dog (very dog aggressive, very confident, rather prey driven), it really frustrated me when I went to my training club and the trainers discouraged me from using anything except food treats & maybe a halti to control him, especially since these things clearly didn't have any real effect on his behaviour. His antisocial behaviour definately caused me to look outside the box and to explore methods that my first club considered unorthodox or even cruel (e.g - playing tug, using prey drive rewards, verbal corrections, pinch collar). I sometimes think, if I had only ever owned non aggressive, less driven, less confident dogs, perhaps I too would look down on people that used drive or correctional methods, the way that the trainers at my first club did? I'm sure that's the reason that some trainers don't keep an open mind about using different techniques - because their method has worked at least somewhat for every dog they've trained so far, so they don't see why anyone would want to use anything different. I should add that I don't train other people's dogs for a living, though I have helped out with a few shelter dogs and dogs belonging to friends/family, so I may not be Cosmolo's target audience for this thread. No, not the target audience or worthy ... Nice to know that I'm not the only one who benefited personally as well as training wise from a dog that did not fit the perfect mold.

I think I am very open minded to any aspect of training, I think it stems from a stubborn streak when I was told my ACD would NEVER enter a trail ring( red rag to a bull) I don't know if I'd have been so receptive to some of the methodologies I learnt/tried if he'd been non dog aggro, although I had to re learn my ways and learn to trust our bitch more as she was to become a perfect girl..hard to say if I was always open minded or it manifested from determination to get Tollies titles. Regardless od how it came about, I'm glad I am receptive to other ideas and motivaters as it opens a whole world of possibilites.

Not so much private instructor as in some one I pay to teach me 1:1, but very ,very experienced handlers and some judges who are friends who offer advice and are quite willing to put you through a ring or some other work if you are willing to listen and learn. Most people I have met have been very willing to impart their knowledge to others who are willing to LISTEN, thats the key, don't ask ..."How do you.... " because how someone else does it may not work for you and your dog. I have been vry lucky as I have and do know some very good people in my field and have benefited greatly from their help and guidence. I enjoy the social aspect of a trial as much as the competition.

JUst finished reading this thread and I , like others, type with tears streaming because some how I hoped Jet/Pete was Pages miracle I like to think he gave her and her family much joy and happiness in the past few months but that will not subdue the tears I like to think that Page in her pain free new self is now at the bridge being greeted by all those pets we have lost who are feelng our sadness and know Page needs them to guide and help her onwards. Be free, sweetheart When I left you, Our sadness showed, But a more important task, I had bestowed On me by He the ruler of us two, For in leaving you, In our world of balls and games, I was given a role at which all our time aimed That of a special companion For those who when their time came The young, the old , the lonely, the afraid, I greet them as they reach the bridge, Approach gallantly or romp or slowly edge, They see me and the others like me, We guide them, help them, and yes, love them too They never take the place of you, But here on the road to Heavens Gates THere's time a little soul needs a puppy guide, Or a saddened one needs some doggy fun Or older one just needs to hug someone For love and friendship and a reassuring lick, That's what I do on my special trip, From the Bridge each day to Heavens Gate, Just walking along With someone who needs me Just being their mate. S.Hatton,2007.

But as someone stated before CCD is now a titled class where as Encouragement was not. It should be included in HSIT. Competitors scoring in the high 190's have plenty of opportunity to win the ring, etc, some one in CCD is just starting out...remember the name of the class CCD replaced??? ENCOURAGEMENT. How many trophies and accolades do you really need? They mean little if you and your dog are'nt enjoying the company of friends: old and new, companionship and atmosphere of a trial because of a preoccupation with checking scores and calulations for HSIT, etc. Just MHO.

Here it is Herding Might be what you are looking for

Is'nt there herding/trials at Cressy 4th and 3rd March and then the next week offering herding instinct testing or such...off to find the topic......