Bird Dog Training...help!

[BCNTC]

poodlefan, do you mean because of her "lala land" thing? this has nothing to do with the methodes, its something she has done since the day I got her. It doesnt just happen during training, she just heads off to "lala land" whenever. like sometime I call her from somewhere in the house, but she is off in her own little world and doesnt hear me. she is fine and dandly once she has snapped out of her little "revry" thats why I said she is "weird". I have never had dogs that do this before, but leck always has, iI remeber when she was a pup she headed off to "lala land" while laying on top of the couch, she went tumbling off, hit the floor, and didnt even notice. she was dong this LOOONNNNGGG before she started her bird dog training.

[Lablover]

BCNTC,

My experience with force methods has primilarily been from limited visiting, the US.

From what I saw, IF a dog failed to pick up a bumper from the ground and HAD been force fetched, the trainer would very quickly, ear pinch. The dog if pressure had been taught correctly, and had been proofed, in avoidance methods, the dog knew how to stop the correction/pressure.

I certainly do think translation between our countries is a problem. I had no idea what a bulldog retrieve was until my visit, as the two are so different between AKC hunt tests and field trials. It was fun. But frank the use of force methods has never turned me on.

[poodlefan]

poodlefan, do you mean because of her "lala land" thing? this has nothing to do with the methodes, its something she has done since the day I got her. It doesnt just happen during training, she just heads off to "lala land" whenever. like sometime I call her from somewhere in the house, but she is off in her own little world and doesnt hear me. she is fine and dandly once she has snapped out of her little "revry" thats why I said she is "weird". I have never had dogs that do this before, but leck always has, iI remeber when she was a pup she headed off to "lala land" while laying on top of the couch, she went tumbling off, hit the floor, and didnt even notice. she was dong this LOOONNNNGGG before she started her bird dog training.

No, I was focussing more on this:

so I have been consistantly using the ear pinch method for about 2 months. I did take classes, and had help from lots of people very experienced in retriever training and trialing, and real hunting. while they help greatly with a majority of it, even they had difficulty with her resistance lol. it was quite funny in the beginng when she wasnt responding to the ear pinch at all, people that have been hunting and training for 60 years were puzzled

A shut down in the face of repeated inescapable stress (can be physical or mental) = learned helplessness. I've seen it in the odd obedience dog at the higher levels.. I don't know what to do, the consquences of doing the wrong thing aren't positive .. so I won't do anything at all.

Do you think your dog truly understands what it is that you are asking her to do?

[Lablover]

poodlefan, do you mean because of her "lala land" thing? this has nothing to do with the methodes, its something she has done since the day I got her. It doesnt just happen during training, she just heads off to "lala land" whenever. like sometime I call her from somewhere in the house, but she is off in her own little world and doesnt hear me. she is fine and dandly once she has snapped out of her little "revry" thats why I said she is "weird". I have never had dogs that do this before, but leck always has, iI remeber when she was a pup she headed off to "lala land" while laying on top of the couch, she went tumbling off, hit the floor, and didnt even notice. she was dong this LOOONNNNGGG before she started her bird dog training.

No, I was focussing more on this:

so I have been consistantly using the ear pinch method for about 2 months. I did take classes, and had help from lots of people very experienced in retriever training and trialing, and real hunting. while they help greatly with a majority of it, even they had difficulty with her resistance lol. it was quite funny in the beginng when she wasnt responding to the ear pinch at all, people that have been hunting and training for 60 years were puzzled

A shut down in the face of repeated inescapable stress (can be physical or mental) = learned helplessness. I've seen it in the odd obedience dog at the higher levels.. I don't know what to do, the consquences of doing the wrong thing aren't positive .. so I won't do anything at all.

Do you think your dog truly understands what it is that you are asking her to do?

In the US at least, not sure about Canada, but in retrieving breeds, learned helplessness if diagnosed correctly is calling clamming. Virtually impossible to fix. Poor dogs!!!

I do not think, as I read it, the poster has this problem with the dog. By the sounds of it, the dog seems completely unmotivated to retrieve. There is no shame in this, but forcing a dog that does not have the right instincts is, a form of cruelty.

All the same, how old is this dog? Has it been mentioned?

[BCNTC]

she is 16 months

she does have natural motivation to retrieve lol... I have 2 BCs who are retrieving obbessive and figer they are the only ones who should ever be allowed to retrieve, they corrected her everytime she tried to bring the object back herself, so she wound up learning that running after the object is all she was allowed to do. I have been working on getting past this, and I had her retrieving normally again about a month ago(totally,she was retreiving in certain situations for that). the main reason I use the force fetch with her is because she like to do things on HER terms onlys, and she cant only run a trial "when she feels like it, the way she feels like running it" . she has to learn that SHE doesnt get to decide what game we play, when we play it and when it ends.

this is what I am trying to say, she is NOT a soft dog, she is not a submissive dog, and she is not shutting down. quite the opposite, she is a tough dog, a dominant dog, and she is trying to change the rules of the game to suit herself. she doesnt want to pick it up off the ground simpley because she doesnt feel like it, so she changes the game by heading to "lala land" followed by turning the game into a wrestling match.

Edited July 13, 2007 by BCNTC

[BCNTC]

we have our culprit! I ordered that smart fetch book, and it just arrived, I have barly read any of it and already seen that we were taught the force fetch wrong. I adjusted the little things to make it the way its in the book, and it worked WAAAAYYYY better right off the bat

lets see the class didnt teach the pressure correctly, taught with a chain collar(book says Buckle, which makes a suprising amount of difference, for Leck anyway). the class skipped a LOT of steps as well, in the class we went immeditly from reaching their neck a little to grab the bumper to full out marked retrieves..no in between. according to the book, she should not even BE at the retrieve from ground stage yet, there is still 2 more steps before she outa be even begining the retrieve from ground stage.

Edited July 16, 2007 by BCNTC

[Lablover]

lets see the class didnt teach the pressure correctly, taught with a chain collar(book says Buckle, which makes a suprising amount of difference, for Leck anyway). the class skipped a LOT of steps as well, in the class we went immeditly from reaching their neck a little to grab the bumper to full out marked retrieves..no in between.

What a strange class. Goooooooooooooooood luck.

A good example of expecting a dog to do, what it has not been taught.

[poodlefan]

BCNTC:

quite the opposite, she is a tough dog, a dominant dog, and she is trying to change the rules of the game to suit herself. she doesnt want to pick it up off the ground simpley because she doesnt feel like it, so she changes the game by heading to "lala land" followed by turning the game into a wrestling match.

Soooo, in light of what you now know about training the force fetch, do you still consider that the issue was as stated above? That she "she didn't feel like doing it"?

As I said at the beginning.. look to the training and the handler.. don't blame the dog.

I hold to my advice about finding a better trainer also.

[Tangwyn]

we have our culprit! I ordered that smart fetch book, and it just arrived, I have barly read any of it and already seen that we were taught the force fetch wrong. I adjusted the little things to make it the way its in the book, and it worked WAAAAYYYY better right off the bat

Glad to hear that its helping. One of the most interesting things I've learnt in life is that often it doesn't matter how long someone has been doing something... they can still have absolutely no idea what they're doing! Sounds like this is the case with the "experienced" trainers who've assisted you with FF up until now.

The author of "SmartFetch" frequents a couple of US retrieving forums and is very willing to answer any queries. If you'd like the links let me know.

Cheers