Azurite Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) I've been wondering about the high protein levels in both the Orijen and Artemis Maximal too. They look like overall excellent products but I've also heard conflicting information. Although the general consensus seems to be that high protein is no longer considered to cause kidney failure, though it may cause issues for puppies (esp. large breeds). I'm debating whether to give them a test run or not. I hope the trial goes well for others. Edited February 20, 2008 by iDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html Exert from above link - Ahhhhhh. . . I know what you're thinking! Too much protein! Kidney damage! Well, guess what? The very early research that pointed a finger at protein as being a cause of kidney failure in dogs wasn't even done on dogs! It was done on rats fed unnatural diets for a rodent... diets high in protein. (Were we tinkering with Nature during these “tests”?) Rats have difficulty excreting excess protein in their diets because they are essentially plant eaters, not meat eaters. Dogs are quite able to tolerate diets with protein levels higher than 30% on a dry weight basis. Dogs are meat eaters; that's how Nature made them! Rats are not. So some of the early research on rats was assumed to be true for dogs... and the myth of "too much protein in a dog's diet causes kidney damage" was started. And just like any seemingly valid rumor or assertion, it derived a life of its own and is only recently being accepted as untrue. Here is just one of many references that recently have appeared asserting the lack of data indicating that reducing the protein level in a food helps to protect the kidneys... Kirk's Veterinary Therapy XIII, Small Animal Practice, page 861, written by Finco, Brown, Barsanti and Bartges "...restriction of protein intake does not alter the development of renal lesions nor does it preserve renal function. Considering these (research) findings, the authors do not recommend reduction of dietary protein in dogs with renal disease or reduced renal function in order to achieve renoprotective effects." They do recommend, though, that once a Blood Urea Nitrogen (BUN) level reaches 75, which is very elevated, that some restriction of protein intake be considered for beneficial effects unrelated to kidney function dynamics. These authors point out that Phosphorus blood levels can play a major role in the health status of dogs with compromised kidney function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azurite Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 That was one of the sources I also read. Everything else I've read seems to concur that the old studies were flawed and that high protein levels are fine. I'm probably just being overly cautious since I only just found a food I'm happy with (EP). I'll probably give one or both of them a test drive when the EP runs out. This was another article I found: Protein and Kidney Failure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 See i am not concerned about the renal problems, i am more concerned at the growth rate in a pup. I cant find anything about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 That was one of the sources I also read. Everything else I've read seems to concur that the old studies were flawed and that high protein levels are fine. I'm probably just being overly cautious since I only just found a food I'm happy with (EP). I'll probably give one or both of them a test drive when the EP runs out. This was another article I found: Protein and Kidney Failure I am in the same boat I only just started my boy on EP holistic duck so will not change immediately that's for sure as it is a 13.6kg bag. Plus I kind of think he is too young at this stage as I don't believe he has finish growing yet either - so I will certainly try them when he reaches 18 mths. I also kind of thought that feeding a dog a high protein diet might make them more energetic too as I have noticed the Power Formulas seem to have a higher level of protein. But since then I have been advised by a great friend that it doesn't do that - plus you feed according to activity level, so if you skip a day of exercise they will not go nuts and that it just seems to have helped her dog's overall wellbeing instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 http://www.wenwen.ws/pet/Dog/Is-it-bad-to-...-3onf023466.htm Just found this If it is a LARGE BREED PUPPY (e.g. German Sheperd, etc.): Yes. If a large breed puppy has too much protein, it can grow at abnormal rates, causing it to have weak joints. This is normally irreversible, so I would not suggest trying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 See i am not concerned about the renal problems, i am more concerned at the growth rate in a pup.I cant find anything about that I looked in our veterinary nutrition books regarding this before I got Orbit, and they all say that it isn't actually the protein that affects the growth rate so much, but the calorie intake, and therefore its the fat/calories per cup that you need to watch rather than the protein. In saying that though, I still stick to foods that are about 23-27% protein for Orbit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldielover Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) I wouldn't be feeding a growing large breed puppy any food with a protein level of 42%. FTPO, if you're looking at a food for Benson, i'd try their Fresh Mix Adult which is wheat and corn free and only 23% protein. I'm a great believer in growing pups slowly. The protein debate has been going on for ages, and dogs DO need protein for growth obviously but i don't like to overdo it. I'm going to try Artemis on my girls when their current bags are finished, so will let you know how they go! Edited February 20, 2008 by goldielover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/Opt...d%20puppies.pdf this seems like a fantastic article - yet to read it through completely, but seems to be sensible. from my skimming over it - the amount of food given is the key as the percentage of crude protein is different to the amount they will actually eat as such ... I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I wouldn't be feeding a growing large breed puppy any food with a protein level of 42%. FTPO, if you're looking at a food for Benson, i'd try their Fresh Mix Adult which is wheat and corn free and only 23% protein. I'm a great believer in growing pups slowly. The protein debate has been going on for ages, and dogs DO need protein for growth obviously but i don't like to overdo it. I'm going to try Artemis on my girls when their current bags are finished, so will let you know how they go! Agreed GL - that's why we went from Large Breed Puppy EP to Holistic Duck EP! Ingredients Duck Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Air Dried Peas, Flaxseed, Brewers Dried Yeast, Tomato Pomace, Dried Egg Product, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Menhaden Oil, Dried Carrots, Quinoa (Organic), Sweet Potato, Inulin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes (sequestered) of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus Lichenformis, Bacillus Coagulins, Aspergillus Oryzae and Aspergillus Niger. Analysis Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%,Crude Fat - Min. 13.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.9, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.0%, Glucosamine - Min. 400 ppm 41 mg/cup*, Phosphorus - Min. 0.55%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 125 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.5%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.5%*, 386 ME (Kcal/cup) PS - EP have change this recipe since the review was done by that website that I quoted before - it no longer has white rice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 http://www.wenwen.ws/pet/Dog/Is-it-bad-to-...-3onf023466.htmJust found this If it is a LARGE BREED PUPPY (e.g. German Sheperd, etc.): Yes. If a large breed puppy has too much protein, it can grow at abnormal rates, causing it to have weak joints. This is normally irreversible, so I would not suggest trying it. THanks will read that after tea. Daire is having 20% protein at the moment He was having 27% and it was too much for him so we dropped it back. Maybe gsd shoudl be on standard pu p instead of large breed even though technically weight wise they fall into that category. I appreciate all your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 I wouldn't be feeding a growing large breed puppy any food with a protein level of 42%. FTPO, if you're looking at a food for Benson, i'd try their Fresh Mix Adult which is wheat and corn free and only 23% protein. I'm a great believer in growing pups slowly. The protein debate has been going on for ages, and dogs DO need protein for growth obviously but i don't like to overdo it. I'm going to try Artemis on my girls when their current bags are finished, so will let you know how they go! Agreed GL - that's why we went from Large Breed Puppy EP to Holistic Duck EP! Ingredients Duck Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Dried Beet Pulp, Sun-Cured Alfalfa, Air Dried Peas, Flaxseed, Brewers Dried Yeast, Tomato Pomace, Dried Egg Product, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Menhaden Oil, Dried Carrots, Quinoa (Organic), Sweet Potato, Inulin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenic Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Rosemary Extract, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, Polysaccharide Complexes (sequestered) of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt, Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Enterococcus faecium, B. Subtillus, Bacillus Lichenformis, Bacillus Coagulins, Aspergillus Oryzae and Aspergillus Niger. Analysis Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%,Crude Fat - Min. 13.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.9, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.0%, Glucosamine - Min. 400 ppm 41 mg/cup*, Phosphorus - Min. 0.55%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 125 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.5%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.5%*, 386 ME (Kcal/cup) PS - EP have change this recipe since the review was done by that website that I quoted before - it no longer has white rice! The only problem I have with this food for a growing puppy is the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio. It should be about 1.2:1, but this EP is about 2:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) The only problem I have with this food for a growing puppy is the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio. It should be about 1.2:1, but this EP is about 2:1 I have had him on EP large Breed Puppy up until just the last couple of weeks. Excuse my ignorance but the following is the break down of the large breed puppy formula. Could you please explain the 1:2:1 thing over the 2:1 - thank you Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%, G9, Crude Fat - Min. 12.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.5%, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 300 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.9%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.58%*, Glucosamine - Min. 800 ppm 82 mg/cup*, 389 ME (Kcal/cup) Edited February 20, 2008 by First Time Puppy Owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 The only problem I have with this food for a growing puppy is the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio. It should be about 1.2:1, but this EP is about 2:1 I have had him on EP large Breed Puppy up until just the last couple of weeks. Excuse my ignorance but the following is the break down of the large breed puppy formula. Could you please explain the 1:2:1 thing over the 2:1 - thank you Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%, G9, Crude Fat - Min. 12.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.5%, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 300 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.9%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.58%*, Glucosamine - Min. 800 ppm 82 mg/cup*, 389 ME (Kcal/cup) In the large puppy you have Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0% so 1.5:1 In the other one it was Calcium - Min. 1%, Phosphorus - Min. 0.55% so 1:0.55 (or close to 2:1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I can sympathise with the dust bowl and two big dogs.... but it hasn't rained here for ages - so I can't remember what the mud is like My pair would just try and eat the dog rocks - so it didn't bother buying them.. When I had grass - before I killed it off to renovate - I would put a pinch or two of bi-carb soda in the dogs water bowls. Dogs don't notice it, and no burnt patches... supposed to neutralise the pH or something.. The only problem I have with this food for a growing puppy is the Calcium:Phosphorus ratio. It should be about 1.2:1, but this EP is about 2:1 I have had him on EP large Breed Puppy up until just the last couple of weeks. Excuse my ignorance but the following is the break down of the large breed puppy formula. Could you please explain the 1:2:1 thing over the 2:1 - thank you ;) Crude Protein - Min. 23.0%, G9, Crude Fat - Min. 12.0%, Crude Fiber - Max. 3.5%, Moisture - Max. 10.0%, Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0%, Vitamin A - Min. 22,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E - Min. 300 IU/kg, Omega 6 - Min. 2.9%*, Omega 3 - Min. 0.58%*, Glucosamine - Min. 800 ppm 82 mg/cup*, 389 ME (Kcal/cup) In the large puppy you have Calcium - Min. 1.5%, Phosphorus - Min. 1.0% so 1.5:1 In the other one it was Calcium - Min. 1%, Phosphorus - Min. 0.55% so 1:0.55 (or close to 2:1) I am such a dodo head - I read it as 1:2:1 - doh! Thank you for that Laffi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Can I just say this is dog food stuff is doing my head in - hell, I would be super human if I looked after myself half as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 I don't know heaps about it, but it's something i'm taking more interested in at the moment... I just know that there is a calcium/phosphorus ratio that is applicable in most species and it should be around 1.2:1. i'm not sure at what point its too much or too little though... too much calcium or not enough is not good for growing giants, so i tend to avoid anything that isnt around the 1.2:1 interesting, I was emailing the greatdanelady who really advocates EP Giant Puppy for danes (she's a nutrition lecturer in the US) and she told me the duck formula wasnt suitable for puppies and to get off it! Didnt' specify why though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Sorry Stormie I have not meant to hijack your thread and I hope you don't feel I have I am just striving to understand more, as I am sure you are too! You know that last article I post, the last para reads as below - The common practice of feeding commercially available adult dog foods to puppies can also be detrimental. The broad category of adult canine maintenance foods contains diets with a wide range of nutrient profiles, caloric densities, and mineral contents. Some foods marketed for adult maintenance have passed AAFCO feeding tests for growth, but some have not. Regardless, in some instances, these diets provide more calcium per calorie and/or have more calories per cup than growth diets designed for large breed puppies. A large breed growth diet that has passed AAFCO animal feeding tests should be fed at least until the puppy reaches about 80% of the expected adult weight, and it will not be detrimental to keep a healthy, lean puppy on growth formula until full adult size is achieved. Above all, remember to feed a large breed growth formula in sufficient quantities to maintain a lean body condition, and avoid additional supplements. So I am reading from that as he is almost an adult weight and it should not be too detrimental for me to have feed Benson the EP duck for only the last couple of weeks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 FTPO I don't think it will be a problem. When we got our retriever puppy 14 years ago, I don't remember there being special Large Breed Formula's - it was just puppy and adult! They say today that the puppy foods aren't suitable for large/giant breeds, and maybe they are different, but our girl did fine and is still healthy and normal today! My understanding has been that adult foods are probably better for the large/giant puppies than the normal puppy food if you had to chose, because they generally have less protein, calories, fat, calcium etc and are possibly more suited the larger breeds than the smaller breeds... feel free to hijack the thread anytime! Yep, i'm learning too so the more information the better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) FTPO I don't think it will be a problem. When we got our retriever puppy 14 years ago, I don't remember there being special Large Breed Formula's - it was just puppy and adult! They say today that the puppy foods aren't suitable for large/giant breeds, and maybe they are different, but our girl did fine and is still healthy and normal today!My understanding has been that adult foods are probably better for the large/giant puppies than the normal puppy food if you had to chose, because they generally have less protein, calories, fat, calcium etc and are possibly more suited the larger breeds than the smaller breeds... feel free to hijack the thread anytime! Yep, i'm learning too so the more information the better! Aaawww spanks! I just hoped I wasn't upsetting you or overstepping my welcome to the discussion, as sometimes my mind gets carried away before thinking about peoples feelings on here, as you can't see their reactions and I rely heavily upon body language Edit - I know that research and advancement in knowledge is fantastic, yet sometimes I feel we are being overloaded with information and everytime you blink there is yet another better product on the market than before - whether it be a camera, phone or dog food and yet our recent past shows that they did ok!?! Then again I know that we are all living longer because of these advancements in research, but I just wish it was simpler to digest! It seems you must do even more research yourself to make sure that the facts you read on one website are the 'Real Facts!" You know what I mean?!?! Edited February 20, 2008 by First Time Puppy Owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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