Wellington Shire Council In Sale, Gippsland, Victoria

[toy dog]

i wanted to try and get doler's to help me to write to this shire to get them to take note that people aren't happy having dog farms and they are an outdated necessity.

once a year i write in here to try and get the council to recognise that there are alot of people opposed to them continually approving applications for large farms. one farm and we won't say a name, had to change their name because of animal liberation Victoria giving them a bad wrap, so it is working people writing letters and complaining and getting the word out. last time the wellington shire complained of too many letters they got absolutely un-indated with them.

this shire and its councillors live in another world to the public and its residents. its the only shire that openly encourages puppy farms and they end up supplying the whole country. i can remember when i lived here from almost 20 years ago thats when the DD craze first started out that they were starting to get applications and published them in the local paper for public view and comment. i personally know that the shire got heaps of objections to the puppy farms but they ignored it - whats the use of publishing it.. and i know why, how much money would they be getting from registrations and permits from these farms, the farm that had to change their name is the biggest in australia producing 1500 pups a year and growing. i heard from locals that many years ago before this large farm became the largest farm in Australia, they were meeting people on the side of the road, always used to see their advertisements in the newspapers and on safeway bulletin boards (so my mother would always take them down then they'd put them up again ) for scores of pups and there still is to this day, now they export to overseas, the majority go to melbourne petshops they say but they still have sales on the property.

having seen the 7.30 report where they interviewed these people from that farm they told the reporter that they have been in this business for 50 years which is a downright lie, it has been less than us 20 years tops. he openly admitted the owner to killing the mothers when they are finished with them, he says humanely but i have reports to say its inhumanely probably a bullet to the skull. we try and home the dogs we have finished with he says. yeah right you do you liar. his dogs are sitting on sand in tin sheds in drums some of them, imagine how hot they would get in the summer and how cold it is during winter?

another issue is the farmers are not following legislation set out to protect these dogs, councils are supposed to enforce the law whereby dogs have to have rests between seasons and not be mated "back-to-back" they are pretty much mating them every season without rest and no one is there to say otherwise, these farmers are getting away with murder (they are murdering the dogs too!) with no checks on their property. also they are meant to be housed in concrete housing but clearly on the 7.30 report you could see the dogs were housed on sand in large paddocks like cattle.

another farm in this shire has dogs sitting on chook wire in very small cages like battery hens it was wall to wall mothers with babies. in a tin shed. owner openly admitted to getting a hammer and zonking the unwanted dogs on the head. no vets required here!!

these dogs suffer but no one wants to recognise this claiming they are just like cattle, sheep and chooks but cattle, sheep and chooks have a far better life than these poor little dogs do, from day dot it is pretty much a miserable life and then they are put down when they finish producing for the farmer as we all know already.

from what we can see the shire, the vets (who sing the praises of these farmers for years ) are all partnering with the dog farmers because there is a lot of money involved.

so they are pretty much patting each other on the back.

this is from the wellington shire website

mayor of sale

c/o 70 Foster St

SALE 3850

Mobile: 0427 052 394

[email protected]

deputy mayor

Red Gum Gully", Boundary Road

BRIAGOLONG 3860

Phone (H): 5145 5590

Mobile: 0408 317 308

[email protected]

councillor

22 Buckley Street

YARRAM 3971

Phone (H): 5182 5853

Mobile: 0429 832 657

[email protected]

councillor

P.O Box 124

MAFFRA 3860

Mobile: 0427 052 383

[email protected]

councillor

488 Boundary Rd

BRIAGOLONG 3860

Mobile: 0427 052 385

[email protected]

councillor

51 Temple Street

HEYFIELD 3858

Phone: (H): 5148 2493

Mobile: 0408 541 746

[email protected]

councillor

25 Desailly St

SALE 3850

Phone: (H): 5144 2958

Mobile: 0427 052 378

[email protected]

councillor

18 Harpley Court

LONGFORD 3851

Phone (H): 5149 7021

Mobile: 0458 006 486

[email protected]

4 Merrick Street

STRATFORD 3862

Phone (H): 5145 6094

Mobile: 0448 031 929

[email protected]

one of the councillors ran down people of the public who complained about shutting down these farms on email he pretty much described them as nutters. it got leaked to the ALV site so they printed what he said and it wasn't pretty.

another councillor has denied what we are telling them as true he claims we are all lying. another lady councillor claims that dog farms can be likened to animal agriculture and livestock farms. another councillor made a mockery of the public emailing one girl and told her he thinks she is lonely why don't she go and buy a puppy to keep her company.

another councillor was helping to close down a farm that was going to be built pretty close to them, but as soon as they got elected didn't bother to help anymore and shut up, (think it was because probably saw the books of how much money the shire is making!!)

so they are all laughing at the public who want to see these cruel factory dog farms closed for good. apparently the public are nutters, meanwhile they are all receiving lots of money from registrations and permits from each of the dogs housed at these farms. when you have a permit you pay for the permit to keep x amount of dogs then you go ahead and pay rego for each dog. they are all ignorant these councillors they don't know what is going on in the real world and don't want to know!! they are not interested.

the employee that is responsible for looking after permits and inspecting (doubles up as a traffic officer as well!!!!!) went to the RSPCA forum on puppy farms and was a guest speaker he basically told everyone that these FARMS ARE BAD, (i spose he had to say that being at a forum opposing farms!!) he then went onto explain they regularly inspect the 14 farms. upon being questioned again and asked how often do you inspect he then said again very regularly, then audit reports were brought out that were meant to be filled in after inspections and they were all blank for 5 years. yes, he explained then, we don't get time and no we don't inspect and fill out reports no.

you can find out more about all this on this page, prisoners for profit

there is a page dedicated to shutting down puppy farms and there is going to be a rally in Melbourne in september oscars law

Email, write, phone, fax the Premier of Victoria John Brumby

[email protected]

1 Treasury Place

East Melbourne VIC 3002

Tel: (03) 9651 5000

Fax: (03) 9651 5054

And the Leader of the Liberal Party Ted Baillieu

[email protected]

Phone: (03) 9651 8512

Fax: (03) 9651 8426

Office of the Leader of the Opposition,

Parliament House,

Spring Street,

East Melbourne 3002

premier of Victoria website on puppy farms ban puppy farms in Victoria

Edited August 7, 2010 by toy dog

[toy dog]

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[toy dog]

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[toy dog]

arghh i am losing patience real fast with this woman. the councillor is still debating with me, now she is saying that the council cannot revoke permits already out there, dogs are exercised daily in this farm and are happy and healthy, most of the problems dont come from these farms it is from pedigrees anyway, given that she watched "pedigree dogs exposed". still going on about livestock and dogs shouldn't get special treatment. dogs on this farm do not live in isolation according to her because she has personally gone out and seen the dogs. if they do revoke the permits and not accept them on new permits for farms the farmer can appeal via VCAT and most likely win. then she started on the same lines as the ranger saying most farms are monitored. and they have rejected an application to have even more farms down there. their hands are tied she says to stopping farms applying if they get no oppposers then they go through. i know plenty that have opposed it.

she thinks i am very stupid and gullible, most of what she told me there is a heap of Bull**** so i told her so also telling her most of her statements were very ignorant, i've had enough of this person. i am pretty sure councils can not renew permits if the farm is in clear violation which they are, looking at the COP they are not up to standard at all and no one checks anyway to see if they are.

[toy dog]

this is one of the issues we are debating according to this councillor no residents are complaining about the farms so it gives the council reason to keep them open!!!!!!!!!! this is part of the conversation we are having, sorry its long but the amount of people complaining about this joint is large, still wellington shire continue to renew permits. i have cut and pasted our cconversations on email for people's perusal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

you said this:

"People who live outside the Shire are the only people who contact councillors about puppy farms. We have had no objections from our own ratepayers and residents."

"Councillors do not deal with planning applications which are decided under planning delegation. We would only deal with applications where there are a number of objections, or where the application is significant in size"

"Council does not have complete power to shut down puppy breeding. Dog breeding is listed in the Victoria Planning Provisions as a legitimate agricultural industry, which requires a permit. If Council refuses to issue a permit, which it can to, the applicant and objectors have the right to appeal to VCAT. Unfortunately, VCAT rarely rejects these applications. Since its decision cannot be appealed, except to the Supreme Court on an error of law, Councils generally have to accept their decision. It then becomes a matter of enforcing the permit conditions."

here is proof that its not outside people complaining about the conditions THAT AREN"T CHECKED by your people. this farm has continued to violate legislation (code of practice for registered breeding animal businesses) reason enough to close that hell hole downand the hell holes in your shire (14 of them!) DOWN.

do you want more proof of what your shire says to the public is just a big front.

Melissa “I was shocked at the cramped tin shed they call the “nursery”. One dog caught my eye, her teats were dragging on the ground, it was heartbreaking”.

Dave “The dogs outside the nursery were on sand and only had a tin kennel, I can’t imagine how hot those dogs will get when we hit the middle of summer. I know whats its like to walk on hot sand with no shoes on. I thought the code stated they had to be provided with shade and have a certain area of their enclosure concreted?, what I saw was sickening, we had to get out of there as my girlfriend was getting upset.”

Gael “I specifically asked 3 different people if I could see the back of the property, they said I couldn’t I asked why it was roped off, they couldn’t give me an answer. The staff were unsure of what to say and appeared nervous when I started asking questions. It was disgusting place and the dogs in that nursery broke my heart, what a way to live, what a way to make a living, they make me sick”

Michelle “They wouldn’t let us see anything except the nursery, most of the people around me were horrified, some people started asking questions and making a scene and we were ushered out of the shed. I heard one lady ask if the dogs had names and the girl said no, then another staff member stated they did but couldn’t name them. None of the pens had dogs names on them”

Graeme (ex puppy farmer) “I witnessed stacks of errors to the regulations, I didn’t see one clean water bowl, besides that the water bowls are not of the design stated in the code, they have to be non-spillable. The size of most of the pens was not conforming to the code. The hot sand the dogs live on is a real issue and I think the RSPCA would have grounds to do something under the Act there. I don’t know how they are getting away with this, Council must be getting a kickback somewhere along the line. I did some quick calculations and I reckon they would be bringing in $500,000 a year, for that amount of money those dogs should be living in luxury, I’m just glad I got out of the business”

The DeBono Family “I wanted to take my kids there to teach them why I refuse to buy a puppy from a pet shop. I had no idea what to expect however was saddened by what we did see. A huge tin shed packed with nursing mother dogs, and their little puppies. I explained to my children that if we did buy a puppy from a shop this is where the money would go. My daughter and I were in tears as we left. This place was pure evil, The staff appeared very unsure of them selves, they couldn’t even tell us the dogs names. It was truly heartbreaking. The only positive of the day is I have taught my children a valuable lesson”

Julie “I had a staff member follow me everywhere! As soon as I started asking questions another guy came over and all he did was bag you! (Debra Tranter from ALV). The place was a shit pit for dogs, no wonder they didn’t want you on the property”

K “Well that was just sad…the dogs have no spirit in their eyes. They are just existing and that is all. We were not allowed near the main pens, just the sheds. Pens and pens of mothers with puppies, it just made me sad.”

Deidre “Your right Deb (Debra Tranter from ALV), they are simply breeding machines, its exactly like a factory assembly line. I was shocked and found it hard to keep my mouth shut”

Alexis and Kade “Oh my GOD! we were sickened, it was row after row of dogs and puppies. They don’t get it. If this is what they were proud to show the public, what the hell was in all the area’s they wouldn’t let us go into?”

Laura ” Each pen had a sign denoting the breed of the dogs including cavalier x pug; corgi; poodle x shih tzu. When four workers, distinguishable by orange and yellow vests, were each asked on separate occasions what the names of specific dogs I was speaking to were, none of them could provide this information. Three workers said they don’t know their names, one said the same then belatedly informed me that they all do have names. Only one pen we witnessed had a name on it - the other dogs had no identification other than their breed type. It was so sad and so undermining of the social, loyal nature of ‘man’s best friends’. It was really distressing to see so many puppies when we are clearly informed that over breeding is a huge problem and causes the killing of tens of thousands of dogs in Victoria every year. The majority of the mothers appeared to be timid and actually moved to the back of their concrete pen when I neared the wire gates. A few were friendly but they were unable to have social interaction due to being enclosed behind a wire gate in the pen which were approximately 2 meters x 3 meters in size. Immediately leaving the first shed we entered another shed that contained pregnant mothers with signs that informed when the litter was due. I became emotional whilst viewing these pregnant dogs, the mothers and their litters and two puppies alone in a pen with no adult dog with them. It was at this time that a member of the Hamms family approached me and asked my name. She appeared extremely nervous and was visibly shaking. I asked this lady to take my companion and I to other area’s of the property quoting the claim by Mathew Hamms in the newspaper “we have nothing to hide”. Black and yellow tape denoted the area’s which were out of bounds for the public. The request to be taken to the back of the property was refused and I reiterated this was an opportunity to prove there really was nothing to hide and again we were refused due to ‘legalities’. I said this proves there is something to hide”.

Isabelle and Michael “We were shocked at what we saw as we expected the dogs pens to have toys, shade, something for the dogs to do. We hung around some big bloke who seemed to be doing all the talking, these are some of the things we heard him saying to people. ‘We have been micro chipping for ten years’, ‘No dog from +++++ has ever been put down, if a dog is returned to us Colin pays a lady $100 to re-home it’, ‘I would like to meet with Debra Tranter to discuss issues, if she turns up today I will show her around’, ‘This is the best puppy farm’, ‘We love dogs’, ‘+++++ Puppies are not purchased on impulse’. We felt the PR machine is in overdrive, name change, open day, they are desperate to clean up their image. I think most people there saw through the crap”

Violet and John “My husband compared it to a pig farm with pen after pen of sows feeding piglets. Not one dog looked happy and 90% of them were people shy. Mr Hamms daughter explained that dad likes to use cardboard boxes for the bitches to whelp in because they prefer it. More like they are cheap and he can probably get enormous amounts of them for little. We weren’t allowed down the back and were told proudly that they had just put up new shelters to conform with Council regulations. Well, what was there before? Being ex pedigree dog breeders we were horrified at the lack of disease control. There was not a foot bath to be seen and we were aghast at one woman standing in a pen holding up a puppy of approximately three weeks old, letting everyone stroke it. We were allowed to wander through the puppy and whelping pen and stoke or pat anything we wanted. It showed a lot of ignorance from an operation that has 20 years experience. The dogs had dead eyes and many of them looked really old. We didn’t get to see what was down the back, although we could see a few dogs. One had teats dragging on the ground. We drove home totally depressed”

Jenny “I was really friendly and generous, saying stuff like ‘I wish my floors were heated’ and ‘Wow they look really happy’ whilst taking photos of the yellow tape restricting access to certain area’s and puppies through the wire, the sagging teats and sad eyes. I cant remember the name of our guide, she was the daughter of the owner and a teacher I think. She really kept a close eye on me and what I was taking photos of. She was really defensive, which, considering my friendly demeanor was quite suspicious. The entry of the ‘whelping house’ was guarded by the owner himself, who never managed a smile, and demanded to know why my friend and I were there. As two teenagers we may have looked a little odd at a puppy farm. However, we simply told him that we heard it on the radio and saw the add in the newspaper and were here to see some cute puppies. When we went behind the whelping house, two girls were sitting in the middle of the caged area. Every station was monitored, it was quite uncomfortable and creepy for me. The mothers behind this area were either desperate for human contact or wary and defensive, barking apprehensively at us. Tin sheds radiating heat provided a tiny amount of shade for the dogs outside. Our guide talked excessively, and her body language showed that she was very anxious. Any way from all the letters, I can tell you have the gist of what happened, and it was pretty awful. I’m so pleased that so many people are concerned about this. I have attached some photos”

Louise “Some of the dogs we passed seemed slightly dirty and others quite timid. At one point I asked our guide how it was possible that 300+ breeding dogs were given adequate love, given that they are sociable animals, and she affirmed they were. Also, when my companion and I raised the issue of over breeding and reminded our guide that 200,000 dogs are euthanized every year because there are not enough homes, our guide assured us that no ++++++ puppies ended up in shelters and that the issue can be attributed to backyard breeders and accidental matings. We then moved back up the hill, we had walked in a circle and returned to the entry of the first shed. Here there were a few visitors and their presence seemed to make out guide even more nervous. She suggested we should not speak there but gestured towards an area away from the people and invited us to have a cup of tea. We declined, as we felt we were being pressured to hide ourselves and our beliefs from the public, and said we preferred to talk where we were. Then we were approached by a woman who offered to talk to us whilst our guide spoke to other visitors. This woman’s tone towards me was quite condescending and she repeated several times that I am very young (thus insinuating that I am consequently incapable of understanding the issues or approaching them rationally). She was soon joined by two other men, one who introduced himself as ++++ brother. They told us that only dogs of the ‘wrong breeds’ are dumped and end up being euthanized, implying that the Hamm’s dogs do not meet this fate. They also said dogs are usually dumped ‘for a reason’ and stated that it is ‘$60 puppies’ and ‘Kelpie x Jack Russell type dogs’, the result of accidental pregnancies that are killed in shelters. They repeated several times that +++++ was the best puppy farm in Australia. I, however said that this was a serious indictment on this industry as a whole as ++++ had been found to be violating the code. The woman then claimed that the puppy farm was a ‘work in progress’ and said that I am also a ‘work in progress’ (another reference to my youth I think). I found this statement shocking because +++++ had been operating for 20 years and had thus had plenty of time to meet animal welfare standards! At one point +++ brother seemed to try to attempt to justify the fact that ++++ had been breaking regulations by referring to the ambiguity of the relevant legislation and how difficult it was to understand. He also said something about the regulations not adequately covering puppy farms of such a large scale.

[ash&elar]

I am just speechless i dont know what to say, wish i could help but i am just no good with this type of thing! so sad, i dont know how they get away with it. :D

[toy dog]

yeah i know i often can't sleep at night and get my comfort in writing letters and informing you lot and also getting angry with ignorant councillors so people can help me by writing emails to the council, i might even ask RSPCA whether this councillor is correct and forward those letters of complaint to them. i suspect they'd already know about them. but its worth a try.

if anyone is in Melbourne in september there is going to be a big rally about puppy farms? i will post the details in another thread, its called oscar's law

oscar's law

the more people that write in the more they take notice thats all we can really do.

Edited August 10, 2010 by toy dog

[Joel]

I hate to be the one who says this (and im sure ill get flamed for it), but I don't see it as any different than someone farming pigs, sheep, cattle, chickens etc. Now, before everyone gets their shorts in a bunch, I don't condone puppy farms. I ALSO dont condone that treatment of other animals. Most people that argue about puppy farms dont buy free range organic meat, farm it themselves or even do without. No, they're there down at Coles or Woolies buying their budget bacon and cheap chicken breasts. How do you think these animals get treated? How many of them do you think get re-homed after they are past their best age for breeding? How many people buy mayonnaise and ice cream without wondering where the eggs come from... BATTERY CHICKENS. Where is your bleeding heart for these animals?

With all that said, it sounds like these animals are being kept quite poorly, but no more poorly than a lot of other animals that are farmed. However I think it is a bit rediculous that the council refuses to do anything after all the complaints and just wipes their hands of it saying that they can't do anything - thats councils for you Keep up the letters. Keep up the protesting.

*starts getting prepared to be burnt at the stake*

[ash&elar]

I hate to be the one who says this (and im sure ill get flamed for it), but I don't see it as any different than someone farming pigs, sheep, cattle, chickens etc. Now, before everyone gets their shorts in a bunch, I don't condone puppy farms. I ALSO dont condone that treatment of other animals. Most people that argue about puppy farms dont buy free range organic meat, farm it themselves or even do without. No, they're there down at Coles or Woolies buying their budget bacon and cheap chicken breasts. How do you think these animals get treated? How many of them do you think get re-homed after they are past their best age for breeding? How many people buy mayonnaise and ice cream without wondering where the eggs come from... BATTERY CHICKENS. Where is your bleeding heart for these animals?

With all that said, it sounds like these animals are being kept quite poorly, but no more poorly than a lot of other animals that are farmed. However I think it is a bit rediculous that the council refuses to do anything after all the complaints and just wipes their hands of it saying that they can't do anything - thats councils for you Keep up the letters. Keep up the protesting.

*starts getting prepared to be burnt at the stake*

Joel, i do kind of agree with you here on the main level of no animal deserves to be treated like this BUT i think it is worse for the dogs as they are a different type of animal to a chicken, I have no problem eating meat as long as the animal has been humanly killed, i live on a farm and so have my own eggs, BUT next door they have the hens for 12months then chop off their heads once they slow down on the amount of eggs they produce, where a chicken can be happy in an enclosure with adequiet food and water etc and lil human companionship and dog would be misserable, every animal has its place i guess and every animal has its needs and they are quiet different from animal to animal.

hope i have worded that right...

[Joel]

Why is a chicken any different than a dog? Intelligence? Maybe a dog is smarter, but chickens definately have a personality (which, because you have chickens you already know ) A dog on its own would suffer for sure, but so would a chicken. If you put a chicken in a cage by itself, it will suffer. What about pigs? Pigs are extremely intelligent - just as much as dogs (and some argue more than). They are also very good companion animals as anyone who has owned pigs would attest to. Perhaps not in the same way that a dog is because they are more motivated by food than an eagerness to please.

With all that said, I think people get caught up in the romance of a dog being different than any other animal and somehow closer to a human. The same goes for cats. It just frustrates me when people get raging mad over the welfare of one animal, while others are in just as bad, if not worse conditions because they feel a connection to the animal that they are fighting for. And while doing so, are even SUPPORTING the treatment of these other species by creating demand with their wallet.

[ash&elar]

Why is a chicken any different than a dog? Intelligence? Maybe a dog is smarter, but chickens definately have a personality (which, because you have chickens you already know ) A dog on its own would suffer for sure, but so would a chicken. If you put a chicken in a cage by itself, it will suffer. What about pigs? Pigs are extremely intelligent - just as much as dogs (and some argue more than). They are also very good companion animals as anyone who has owned pigs would attest to. Perhaps not in the same way that a dog is because they are more motivated by food than an eagerness to please.

With all that said, I think people get caught up in the romance of a dog being different than any other animal and somehow closer to a human. The same goes for cats. It just frustrates me when people get raging mad over the welfare of one animal, while others are in just as bad, if not worse conditions because they feel a connection to the animal that they are fighting for. And while doing so, are even SUPPORTING the treatment of these other species by creating demand with their wallet.

grrr i had a great reply and my net stuffed up n i lost it

[Joel]

lol. then try to remember and repost

[poodlemum]

I hate to be the one who says this (and im sure ill get flamed for it), but I don't see it as any different than someone farming pigs, sheep, cattle, chickens etc. Now, before everyone gets their shorts in a bunch, I don't condone puppy farms. I ALSO dont condone that treatment of other animals. Most people that argue about puppy farms dont buy free range organic meat, farm it themselves or even do without. No, they're there down at Coles or Woolies buying their budget bacon and cheap chicken breasts. How do you think these animals get treated? How many of them do you think get re-homed after they are past their best age for breeding? How many people buy mayonnaise and ice cream without wondering where the eggs come from... BATTERY CHICKENS. Where is your bleeding heart for these animals?

With all that said, it sounds like these animals are being kept quite poorly, but no more poorly than a lot of other animals that are farmed. However I think it is a bit rediculous that the council refuses to do anything after all the complaints and just wipes their hands of it saying that they can't do anything - thats councils for you Keep up the letters. Keep up the protesting.

*starts getting prepared to be burnt at the stake*

If you want to be an apologist for puppy farms, may I suggest that you're on the WRONG FORUM

[kelpiekaye]

Hi toy dog, I live in the Wellington Shire and have seen one of the puppy farms just out of Heyfield and I will do all I can to help. PM me if you would like. Cheers Kaye

[ash&elar]

Why is a chicken any different than a dog? Intelligence? Maybe a dog is smarter, but chickens definately have a personality (which, because you have chickens you already know ) A dog on its own would suffer for sure, but so would a chicken. If you put a chicken in a cage by itself, it will suffer. What about pigs? Pigs are extremely intelligent - just as much as dogs (and some argue more than). They are also very good companion animals as anyone who has owned pigs would attest to. Perhaps not in the same way that a dog is because they are more motivated by food than an eagerness to please.

With all that said, I think people get caught up in the romance of a dog being different than any other animal and somehow closer to a human. The same goes for cats. It just frustrates me when people get raging mad over the welfare of one animal, while others are in just as bad, if not worse conditions because they feel a connection to the animal that they are fighting for. And while doing so, are even SUPPORTING the treatment of these other species by creating demand with their wallet.

A chicken, pig, cow etc are all livestock, dogs are canines and the two cannot be compared they are very much different types of animals.

I do not think that MOST ppl condone the mistreatment of any animal livestock or other, BUT this is a dog site ppl are here because they love dogs, most ppl unless they live on a farm or a country town have prob never even seen a chicken close up let alone a pig and though ignorance is not an excuse they prob do not know of the conditions that some of these other animals are kept in, look at how many ppl who own dogs didnt or still do not know of brb and puppy mills? or how many dogs die in shelters everyday? they own this type of animal and are still or were un informed about all these things.

I am prob going to get flamed for this too but.... it is not ok to treat any animal with neglect or cruelty BUT i believe it is worse to do it to a dog, DOG= MANS BEST FRIEND. PIG=BACON.

Ducks for cover.....

[Joel]

If you want to be an apologist for puppy farms, may I suggest that you're on the WRONG FORUM

I am not defending puppy farming. What I am saying is that it is very tunnel-visioned to think that this treatment is not ok for dogs, but overlook the fact that it happens to other animals every day, and is being supported (through purchase of animal product) by the same people arguing that puppy farms are the most horrible idea on the planet.

[poodlemum]

If you want to be an apologist for puppy farms, may I suggest that you're on the WRONG FORUM

I am not defending puppy farming. What I am saying is that it is very tunnel-visioned to think that this treatment is not ok for dogs, but overlook the fact that it happens to other animals every day, and is being supported (through purchase of animal product) by the same people arguing that puppy farms are the most horrible idea on the planet.

The fact is, it is PUPPY FARMS being discussed here, not chicken, pig or other livestock farms. No, I don't like the way some animals are treated but what's the point of dragging in a red herring? The flip side of your argument is, that if it's ok to raise chickens, pigs etc in these condition, it's ok to raise dogs in these condition.

This is a PUREBREED DOG FORUM - we are talking about DOGS, not any other animals

[Joel]

Why is a chicken any different than a dog? Intelligence? Maybe a dog is smarter, but chickens definately have a personality (which, because you have chickens you already know ) A dog on its own would suffer for sure, but so would a chicken. If you put a chicken in a cage by itself, it will suffer. What about pigs? Pigs are extremely intelligent - just as much as dogs (and some argue more than). They are also very good companion animals as anyone who has owned pigs would attest to. Perhaps not in the same way that a dog is because they are more motivated by food than an eagerness to please.

With all that said, I think people get caught up in the romance of a dog being different than any other animal and somehow closer to a human. The same goes for cats. It just frustrates me when people get raging mad over the welfare of one animal, while others are in just as bad, if not worse conditions because they feel a connection to the animal that they are fighting for. And while doing so, are even SUPPORTING the treatment of these other species by creating demand with their wallet.

A chicken, pig, cow etc are all livestock, dogs are canines and the two cannot be compared they are very much different types of animals.

I do not think that MOST ppl condone the mistreatment of any animal livestock or other, BUT this is a dog site ppl are here because they love dogs, most ppl unless they live on a farm or a country town have prob never even seen a chicken close up let alone a pig and though ignorance is not an excuse they prob do not know of the conditions that some of these other animals are kept in, look at how many ppl who own dogs didnt or still do not know of brb and puppy mills? or how many dogs die in shelters everyday? they own this type of animal and are still or were un informed about all these things.

I am prob going to get flamed for this too but.... it is not ok to treat any animal with neglect or cruelty BUT i believe it is worse to do it to a dog, DOG= MANS BEST FRIEND. PIG=BACON.

Ducks for cover.....

You putting pigs, chickens and cattle in the same basket is like putting dogs, cats, lizards, spiders, snakes, rats etc in the same basket. People keep rats as pets, yet more people trap and kill them as vermin. I'll take a snippet from wikipedia here...

Livestock (also cattle) refers to one or more domesticated animals raised in an agricultural setting to produce commodities such as food or fibre, or labor. The term "livestock" as used in this article does not include poultry or farmed fish; however the inclusion of these, especially poultry, within the meaning of "livestock" is common.

Livestock generally are raised for subsistence or for profit. Raising animals (animal husbandry) is an important component of modern agriculture. It has been practised in many cultures since the transition to farming from hunter-gather lifestyles.

That means that canines can be included in the term livestock, especially when being produced by a 'puppy farm'. Although not for food, it is definitely for profit. Does this then make them less important than a dog that someone can buy as a pet? Of course not.

Why is it worse to treat a dog poorly than any other animal? Because we have been conditioned to think that dogs are seperate from other animals and because we don't use them for food they, as a species, are somehow more important? I think this argument is used only to justify people eating meat which they know has probably been treated in a manor that they wouldn't allow for their beloved pet.

Pig = Bacon is true for most people, but in some places of the world, Dog = meat on a stick. Does this make the statement true? That dog = mans best friend and pig = bacon - No. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't eat my dog, but nor would I eat a pet pig. I just get sick of people fighting for one justice while supporting an injustice of the same kind.

EDIT: spelling

Edited August 10, 2010 by Joel

[Joel]

If you want to be an apologist for puppy farms, may I suggest that you're on the WRONG FORUM

I am not defending puppy farming. What I am saying is that it is very tunnel-visioned to think that this treatment is not ok for dogs, but overlook the fact that it happens to other animals every day, and is being supported (through purchase of animal product) by the same people arguing that puppy farms are the most horrible idea on the planet.

The fact is, it is PUPPY FARMS being discussed here, not chicken, pig or other livestock farms. No, I don't like the way some animals are treated but what's the point of dragging in a red herring? The flip side of your argument is, that if it's ok to raise chickens, pigs etc in these condition, it's ok to raise dogs in these condition.

This is a PUREBREED DOG FORUM - we are talking about DOGS, not any other animals

If you look at it like that, this topic has no place in this forum. If it is a PUREBREED DOG FORUM in its entirety, then puppy farms (which produce cross breeds for the most part) have no place here. Although this forum is designed to be about purebred dogs, it also encompasses a lot of other topics.

Apart from that, other animals ARE part of what is being discussed here. How is a dog different to any other farmed creature? Its not. You are exactly right about the flipside of my argument, which is why I pointed it out. I am against all types of farming in this way, and I think that others should be too. I think it is extremely hypocritical to get your shorts in a bunch about one animal being mistreated, while others are suffering the same fates (and sometimes worse) and do nothing. I'm not even talking about lobbying to stop this type of farming, but even not purchasing products which originate from it would change things. I love ALL animals, not just dogs. Perhaps you should look at it that way.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Joel

[kelpiekaye]

The point of this topic by top dog was to ask for support to put pressure on council to do something about puppy farms. Lets stick to the topic. We all care about other animals but you cant fix the world all at once. As we are dog lovers we are trying to help dogs.