m-sass Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) I rank highest on that list of my dog in every regard. She's been allowed free play since she was a baby, even at dog parks (gasp). She was left with my older dog from 13 or 14 weeks old. I let her play before and after obedience/agility classes. If we're in a training session on the oval and another dog comes and wants to play, I break off the session and let her play. One minute she can have a game of bitey face with a dog outside the obedience ring and the next she can be in that ring, working. Then she can do out of sight stays next to that same dog. Neutralisation is very hard work no matter which way you choose to do it. I see neutralisation as "more work for myself" rather than letting the value build itself naturally. As you say, there is no right or wrong :) Edit: Obviously my dog is not neutralised :p Her value for me build naturally with time and training. I definitely don't think that dogs that aren't neutral can't work well, I am sure they can. Though I would wonder if a dog who has just played with another dog outside the ring immediately before going in to compete is really going to give 120% - not aiming that at you specifically obviously as I don't know you or your dog but it would be something I would be asking myself. It really comes down to personal preference, I don't have a need or desire to have a dog that wants to play lots with other dogs, and I don't think raising a dog to be neutral is lots of hard work. Certainly IMO no more work than teaching your dog other dogs have a high value then having to also teach them and reinforce that you are always of a higher value. I don't think people who let their dogs play with others have anything to prove, I'm just not interested in raising a dog that way myself. Where extreme reliability in working roles are desired, they tend to neutralise dogs towards everything other than a trained task including males instincts towards a bitch in season, I am not aware of any performance advantages gained from dogs having a value for other dogs and is usually the opposite of that is what mostly is sought after. Totally agree with this bit! I do make sure that I control what is happening, so she is not allowed to release herself to go play or to her reward or anything else. I do have trouble with PEOPLE wanting to constantly feed her, though Wouldn't it be more desirable to release a dog for reward of something that involves a training goal or handler provided reward than releasing to play with other dogs as reward? Edited August 1, 2012 by m-sass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 m-mass what expertise/qualification do you have to be making such comments about dog behaviour, aggression and training? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 m-mass what expertise/qualification do you have to be making such comments about dog behaviour, aggression and training? The only valid qualifications I am aware of is a veterinary behaviourist, that's not me, experience training 38 years........what comments are you referring to here?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 My dog is a pet first and foremost, not just an obedience puppet. Value for other dogs may not be something that you want in a purely obedience dog, but as a pet there are many, many advantages. In my opinion, TheCheekyMonster, you have nothing to worry about. Monitor his interactions closely and perhaps be a bit more careful than you used to be, but that's all I'd do. One of my dogs is submissive too, but will fight back if provoked. I just make sure that she doesn't interact with dogs that will provoke her :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) I don't agree with the statement that free play with other dogs compromises obedience. I think it's more complex than that. Reward history, level of training, maintenance of training, level of motivation etc all come into play. This is where people go wrong- it's not just the free play element that does it. My dogs have alot of interaction with other dogs- but they'd all sell their souls to work with me instead. What Megan said :) I think where people go wrong is that EVERY interaction with other dogs is free play. There's no balance applied. I see such dogs at the dog club, coming late into obedience. Their owners have interpreted the "socialise your puppy" message as taking them to the dog park every day and letting them just go for it. And surprise surprise all the dogs want to do when they see other dogs is run around and play like mad things. They've often been roughhoused and many have rough, inappropriate play styles for a lot of other dogs. And as for correcting a dog for defending itself from a bite?? Ah, no. I suggest in such situations that handlers apply a harsh correction to THEMSELVES for putting their dogs in a situation where they felt compelled to do so. I know I"m risk averse but I read posts here about mounting and scuffles being all part of every day visits to the dog park and I shudder. It certainly reinforces my view to stay out of them when ever other dogs are present. And to the OP, yes I would be concerned. Your dog is maturing, is clearly becoming less submissive/tolerant and now needs you to be more discerning about the sorts of dogs he socialises with. Heed the warning he's given you. Edited August 1, 2012 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 1, 2012 Author Share Posted August 1, 2012 I don't agree with the statement that free play with other dogs compromises obedience. I think it's more complex than that. Reward history, level of training, maintenance of training, level of motivation etc all come into play. This is where people go wrong- it's not just the free play element that does it. My dogs have alot of interaction with other dogs- but they'd all sell their souls to work with me instead. What Megan said :) I think where people go wrong is that EVERY interaction with other dogs is free play. There's no balance applied. I see such dogs at the dog club, coming late into obedience. Their owners have interpreted the "socialise your puppy" message as taking them to the dog park every day and letting them just go for it. And surprise surprise all the dogs want to do when they see other dogs is run around and play like mad things. They've often been roughhoused and many have rough, inappropriate play styles for a lot of other dogs. And as for correcting a dog for defending itself from a bite?? Ah, no. I suggest in such situations that handlers apply a harsh correction to THEMSELVES for putting their dogs in a situation where they felt compelled to do so. I know I"m risk averse but I read posts here about mounting and scuffles being all part of every day visits to the dog park and I shudder. It certainly reinforces my view to stay out of them when ever other dogs are present. And to the OP, yes I would be concerned. Your dog is maturing, is clearly becoming less submissive/tolerant and now needs you to be more discerning about the sorts of dogs he socialises with. Heed the warning he's given you. This is the first time I have ever seen such a reaction, We do flyball, show training and will be starting agility.... Gus does sometimes want to go meet the other dogs, but when we are training we are training, so he does know what is play and what is work when in a particular environment. I am learning what this reaction is and how it is triggered because it has not happened since, the mounting is a new thing and I am only as good as the knowledge I seek, so now I have had some pretty good suggestions from here I will be putting them into practice. And I do not let my dog "go for it" he has to sit and wait before he can play, mounting is part of his current visits, scuffles no.... there has never been anything serious but there has been an establishment of hierarchy and I think that is perfectly normal is it not? there is no such thing as an "equal dog" from what I have gathered and yes wuffles my dog is a pet first and foremost!! I love seeing him to play with other dogs after all a trip to the dog park is only a weekend event if a dog cant let off some steam with a like species, I think thats sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I think it sounds like you are headed in the right direction, CM! You are aware of issues & taking steps to improve things. Good work & good luck. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 I think it sounds like you are headed in the right direction, CM! You are aware of issues & taking steps to improve things. Good work & good luck. :) thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-sass Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 And I do not let my dog "go for it" he has to sit and wait before he can play, So you are using playing with other dogs as a reward for a sit behaviour..........releasing the dog in drive to go play?? I wouldn't be doing that to train reliable obedience because as it puts a value into the behaviour of dog play, but that's just my opinion as I prefer dogs to be neutral to other dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 And I do not let my dog "go for it" he has to sit and wait before he can play, So you are using playing with other dogs as a reward for a sit behaviour..........releasing the dog in drive to go play?? I wouldn't be doing that to train reliable obedience because as it puts a value into the behaviour of dog play, but that's just my opinion as I prefer dogs to be neutral to other dogs. The OP has already said she does not want her dog to be neutral to other dogs. The dog gets no play until well behaved. I wish everyone at the park trained their dogs to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 nope, I like my dog to play with other dogs m-sass but behaving and making sure he is in tune with me and listening to what I ask of him is something that is important for me and sure why would I not reward that with something he regards a high value? other dogs are a high value reward for him and if I can use that to my advantage why not? If he breaks a sit or stay he will go back on lead till he is ready to behave again... and I must say he has not mounted since I have been asking more of him before letting him free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 (edited) nope, I like my dog to play with other dogs m-sass but behaving and making sure he is in tune with me and listening to what I ask of him is something that is important for me and sure why would I not reward that with something he regards a high value? other dogs are a high value reward for him and if I can use that to my advantage why not? If he breaks a sit or stay he will go back on lead till he is ready to behave again... and I must say he has not mounted since I have been asking more of him before letting him free. TCM, there is nothing wrong with wanting to let him to play with other dogs if this is what you want, but as you've mentioned previously in the thread that his value for other dogs exceeds his value for you and the rewards you offer I'd be rethinking allowing him to learn other dogs are of a high value. Why not put some more work into teaching him to play with you when other dogs are around instead of letting him learn when you go to the park, other dogs are the number one most valuable thing out there and his number one reward? If you don't care if he can be obedient when other dogs are around then it doesn't matter, but if you want him to be more reliable it's something to think about. ETA: Even if you are rewarding him with play with other dogs for good behaviour (i.e. sitting or staying) allowing him to see other dogs are a high value reward when his value for you isn't that high is IMHO going to hinder rather than help you. Edited August 5, 2012 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 nope, I like my dog to play with other dogs m-sass but behaving and making sure he is in tune with me and listening to what I ask of him is something that is important for me and sure why would I not reward that with something he regards a high value? other dogs are a high value reward for him and if I can use that to my advantage why not? If he breaks a sit or stay he will go back on lead till he is ready to behave again... and I must say he has not mounted since I have been asking more of him before letting him free. TCM, there is nothing wrong with wanting to let him to play with other dogs if this is what you want, but as you've mentioned previously in the thread that his value for other dogs exceeds his value for you and the rewards you offer I'd be rethinking allowing him to learn other dogs are of a high value. Why put some more work into teaching him to play with you when other dogs are around instead of letting him learn when you go to the park, other dogs are the number one most valuable thing out there and his number one reward? If you don't care if he can be obedient when other dogs are around then it doesn't matter, but if you want him to be more reliable it's something to think about. I'm not teaching him dogs are higher value, but other dogs do have a value for him .... but if i walk away from him he is next to me in a heart beat without me saying a word... so can I assume that means he values me more than the other dogs? I have the food, food is his number 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 nope, I like my dog to play with other dogs m-sass but behaving and making sure he is in tune with me and listening to what I ask of him is something that is important for me and sure why would I not reward that with something he regards a high value? other dogs are a high value reward for him and if I can use that to my advantage why not? If he breaks a sit or stay he will go back on lead till he is ready to behave again... and I must say he has not mounted since I have been asking more of him before letting him free. TCM, there is nothing wrong with wanting to let him to play with other dogs if this is what you want, but as you've mentioned previously in the thread that his value for other dogs exceeds his value for you and the rewards you offer I'd be rethinking allowing him to learn other dogs are of a high value. Why put some more work into teaching him to play with you when other dogs are around instead of letting him learn when you go to the park, other dogs are the number one most valuable thing out there and his number one reward? If you don't care if he can be obedient when other dogs are around then it doesn't matter, but if you want him to be more reliable it's something to think about. I'm not teaching him dogs are higher value, but other dogs do have a value for him .... but if i walk away from him he is next to me in a heart beat without me saying a word... so can I assume that means he values me more than the other dogs? I have the food, food is his number 1. Your words were 'why would I not reward that with something he regards a high value?'. I was just responding to that :) Earlier in the thread you were asking about why he'd leave a game with you to go and play with other dogs. If he never chooses to play with other dogs over obeying you and you don't see any room for improvement in his behaviour or obedience, then you have nothing to worry about. I wouldn't use other dogs as a reward if my dog already had a high value for them, I think it's a bit counter productive for the overall goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 5, 2012 Author Share Posted August 5, 2012 nope, I like my dog to play with other dogs m-sass but behaving and making sure he is in tune with me and listening to what I ask of him is something that is important for me and sure why would I not reward that with something he regards a high value? other dogs are a high value reward for him and if I can use that to my advantage why not? If he breaks a sit or stay he will go back on lead till he is ready to behave again... and I must say he has not mounted since I have been asking more of him before letting him free. TCM, there is nothing wrong with wanting to let him to play with other dogs if this is what you want, but as you've mentioned previously in the thread that his value for other dogs exceeds his value for you and the rewards you offer I'd be rethinking allowing him to learn other dogs are of a high value. Why put some more work into teaching him to play with you when other dogs are around instead of letting him learn when you go to the park, other dogs are the number one most valuable thing out there and his number one reward? If you don't care if he can be obedient when other dogs are around then it doesn't matter, but if you want him to be more reliable it's something to think about. I'm not teaching him dogs are higher value, but other dogs do have a value for him .... but if i walk away from him he is next to me in a heart beat without me saying a word... so can I assume that means he values me more than the other dogs? I have the food, food is his number 1. Your words were 'why would I not reward that with something he regards a high value?'. I was just responding to that :) Earlier in the thread you were asking about why he'd leave a game with you to go and play with other dogs. If he never chooses to play with other dogs over obeying you and you don't see any room for improvement in his behaviour or obedience, then you have nothing to worry about. I wouldn't use other dogs as a reward if my dog already had a high value for them, I think it's a bit counter productive for the overall goal. this is true, sorry I didnt really describe the value properly... he does value dogs on a level,,,,, but food and me are before that 95% of the time and I guess I want to get that to 99% of the time so TOT and NILIF should help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 this is true, sorry I didnt really describe the value properly... he does value dogs on a level,,,,, but food and me are before that 95% of the time and I guess I want to get that to 99% of the time so TOT and NILIF should help with that. It really depends on your goals! Those things could help, but if the issue is when he is around and playing with others dogs I'd be looking at how you are using other dogs as rewards and his value for them. If the problems you want to fix come from having him have more value for other dogs than you and your rewards then I'd reconsider using other dogs as a high value reward. JMHO though :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Hey TCM, I hope you don't mind me butting in but I'm finding the advice in this thread really interesting and and would love some advice as well... Quinn, my Aussie Shepherd girl is approaching 9 months old, her training and bond with me is going pretty well and she will come to me, sit and pay attention against most distractions now (other dogs, other adults) BUT kids, the younger the better, are still her highest value thing! I leash her at the dog park when anyone under about 14 comes in otherwise she'll run and jump on them no matter what I do. If I'm not quick enough she's across the park and knocking toddlers over before I even get close I understand that she does it because kids are the ultimate reward for a people-loving puppy, she can reach their faces, they run and scream and wrestle with her, in her head it's super fun! But actually they're scared and possibly getting hurt. So I've been trying to desensitize her by walking her on leash near kids, telling her firmly to stay "Down" (she knows the command), physically restraining her from reaching the kids if she jumps, and giving praise and pats when she stays down. After reading this thread I'm thinking maybe every time there's a kid nearby I should have some super high value rewards (she's very food motivated), get her focussed on me (on leash) then take her over to the kids and reward reward reward while she ignores the kids, then take her away again before she has any interaction with the kid... huski and others what do you think, if you don't mind advising? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCheekyMonster Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 not at all :) I like to read haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 Hey TCM, I hope you don't mind me butting in but I'm finding the advice in this thread really interesting and and would love some advice as well... Quinn, my Aussie Shepherd girl is approaching 9 months old, her training and bond with me is going pretty well and she will come to me, sit and pay attention against most distractions now (other dogs, other adults) BUT kids, the younger the better, are still her highest value thing! I leash her at the dog park when anyone under about 14 comes in otherwise she'll run and jump on them no matter what I do. If I'm not quick enough she's across the park and knocking toddlers over before I even get close I understand that she does it because kids are the ultimate reward for a people-loving puppy, she can reach their faces, they run and scream and wrestle with her, in her head it's super fun! But actually they're scared and possibly getting hurt. So I've been trying to desensitize her by walking her on leash near kids, telling her firmly to stay "Down" (she knows the command), physically restraining her from reaching the kids if she jumps, and giving praise and pats when she stays down. After reading this thread I'm thinking maybe every time there's a kid nearby I should have some super high value rewards (she's very food motivated), get her focussed on me (on leash) then take her over to the kids and reward reward reward while she ignores the kids, then take her away again before she has any interaction with the kid... huski and others what do you think, if you don't mind advising? SP that is where I would start. Work on teaching her you are more fun and valuable and then once she's no longer seeking out kids to run over and play with them you could work on how she actually interacts with them (if that's what you wanted to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 "Look at That" could be a good game to play with her too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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