Guest Tess32 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I thought herding *was* a re-directed prey drive? This is all very interesting. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 A: So, if I say "ready" to my dog each time before getting him hyped up with the toy, then eventually I can say "ready" and he'll know it's time to work? K9: yep, thats it, simple chained in verbal command, you can add a physical action to if you like. A: How long does that take, before he no longer needs the toy to go into drive? K9: 34 cm is the legth of the piece of string.. lol. It depends on the dog, its drive etc. My super smart GSDs get it in about 10 reps, eg 30 seconds... A: My dog is a very game bull terrier K9: keep in mind, "gameness" isnt prey drive. Though they can look similar in action. A: high prey drive and a SUPER high drive to fight other male dogs K9: prey drive isnt aggression, prey aggression is a learned condition not a genetic one. Your dog may have other reasons to want to fight another dog, such as the gameness you mentioned. A: So I'd be best to train him in prey drive? K9: all things being equal I would say no, it takes a little skill to get your dog accurately working in high drive, if it were me, I would be trying to extinguish your dogs gameness, this is done with a method of training that will raise your dogs threshold to the drives you dont want to see. Food, toys etc will not get your desired results with this dog when other dogs in around. A: PS - any plans for a tour of NZ Steve? K9: have been talking with NZ Police to organise aother trip over, but nothing solid. V: So what happens when your dogs genetic drives do not fall into any of these categories, such as in a herding dog? K9: ? A herding dog is usually loaded with prey drive... V: Do you believe you can harness this drive to train everyday things? K9: whats an everyday thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 So, if I say "ready" to my dog each time before getting him hyped up with the toy, then eventually I can say "ready" and he'll know it's time to work? Is that kind of what you mean Steve? How long does that take, before he no longer needs the toy to go into drive? basically thats what it is. How long? Depends only on you, your consistency of traiing and genetic make up of your dog. How long does it take to drink a beer? For you 3 minutes for me 23 minutes I've known he seems to have moderate food drive, high prey drive and a SUPER high drive to fight other male dogs (don't know what you call that?). So I'd be best to train him in prey drive? Or is there some way to train him by using his "dog-dog fight" drive? . there are positive and negative drives. Dog can get satisfation form both, but for the purpose of training you want to use positive drives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 V: So what happens when your dogs genetic drives do not fall into any of these categories, such as in a herding dog? K9: ? A herding dog is usually loaded with prey drive... One of the most important qualities in a sheepdog is it's ability to settle it's stock. I dont understand how a dog in prey drive can successfully do this. Maybe I don't understand prey drive. If you were to train/work your GSD on sheep, what drive would they be working in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 My super smart GSDs get it in about 10 reps, eg 30 seconds... Oh good, my thick as a brick SBT should get it by Christmas then! Sorry, I know I said that last post was the last dumb question, but please bear with me... ;) if it were me, I would be trying to extinguish your dogs gameness, this is done with a method of training that will raise your dogs threshold to the drives you dont want to see. At the moment when it looks like he's about to go into his "fight" drive, I give him a command (e.g "look at me" or "sit"), then either reward or correct depending on his response. It seems to be working OK - he's getting the idea that he needs to listen to me even if he'd prefer to fight. But giving a command doesn't work when he's already gone into drive, since then he can't focus on me. I'm hoping that with practice under greater and greater distractions, I can delay him going into "fight drive" longer and longer. Is that kind of what you mean? Or do you mean raise the threshold some other way? K9: have been talking with NZ Police to organise aother trip over, but nothing solid. If you do come over, and it's open to the public, please let me know! I'll definately come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 My super smart GSDs get it in about 10 reps, eg 30 seconds... For my super smart dobe with low pray drive and no food drive, that would also be in vacinity of 10 max 15 repetitions. That is to learn the mechanics of an excercise. Not to be confused with training and proofing. About 6 months ago at the age of 5 yo I tought him a comand "touch" in about 3 minutes. IMHO. or better said, in my personal experience - to teach the dog an excercise its very easy, the difficult bit is to train it to perform the learned behaviour under distractions. than again..... 10 minutes of guided motions with Steve and his super smart GSD male and my super smart Dobe male wasnt "eating" him. Priceless!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 One of the most important qualities in a sheepdog is it's ability to settle it's stock. I dont understand how a dog in prey drive can successfully do this. Maybe I don't understand prey drive. If you were in control of the pray item - would there be a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 V: One of the most important qualities in a sheepdog is it's ability to settle it's stock. I dont understand how a dog in prey drive can successfully do this. Maybe I don't understand prey drive. K9: maybe you dont, prey drive is the desire to chase, bite, banquish a fast moving item. If your dog was attempting to catch a bird, he would be in prey drive, but may lay on his belly & creep up to the bird very slowly. Prey drive doesnt have to be manic running around flat out, there must be some control sections to. V: If you were to train/work your GSD on sheep, what drive would they be working in? K9: prey drive, like all the others do. There are 5 sections to a drive, what you are thinking of is drive peak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 A: At the moment when it looks like he's about to go into his "fight" drive, I give him a command (e.g "look at me" or "sit"), then either reward or correct depending on his response. It seems to be working OK - he's getting the idea that he needs to listen to me even if he'd prefer to fight. K9: firstly, I dont watch for my dog to not comply & correct, thsi means he gets a correction "sometimes" & he will always be looking for that some time. Second, your correction may simply extinguish his drive, rather than "its working". A: But giving a command doesn't work when he's already gone into drive, since then he can't focus on me. K9: thats because he is in drive peak, no dog will respond with training. A: Is that kind of what you mean? Or do you mean raise the threshold some other way? K9: sort of but you need a dedicated program after your dog has been evaluated. I recommend that you have a chat with an expert & let them eval your dog. M: For my super smart dobe (K9 here we go... ) M: than again..... 10 minutes of guided motions with Steve and his super smart GSD male and my super smart Dobe male wasnt "eating" him. Priceless!!!! K9: loosley translated, my dog didnt eat you & your Dobe lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 K9: maybe you dont, prey drive is the desire to chase, bite, banquish a fast moving item.If your dog was attempting to catch a bird, he would be in prey drive, but may lay on his belly & creep up to the bird very slowly. Prey drive doesnt have to be manic running around flat out, there must be some control sections to. That makes some sense but I still don't understand. If sheepdogs are in prey drive how do they achieve drive satisfaction? They never get to chase or bite the sheep. This is not their ambition, their goal is to gather & bring the sheep to the handler. A dog in prey drive creeping towards a bird has the expectation/hope that they will get the bird...this is not so with sheepdogs. Also the sheep are well aware of what the dogs intentions are and sheep being worked by a dog who just wants to take them down will often just fall over and wait to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 This might explain something - HERDING INSTINCT in Border Collies is often referred to as an aborted prey instinct; that is, they stalk and eye stock (their prey) in much the same way as wild dogs hunt prey. Herding dogs, however, don't (or shouldn't) follow through with the kill. Many other breeds exhibit various forms of prey drive. For example a Jack Russell Terrier may chase sheep around a round pen like a young, inexperienced Border Collie - but they clearly don't have the ability or talent to become a herding dog. Thus herding instinct is much more than prey instinct and includes a number of inherent behavioral traits that allow a dog to effectively work stock. Basically anything that the dog does naturally in working stock can be thought of as being part of their instinct. This includes, gathering/heading behavior, eyeing, balance, wearing, pace, flanking, and a number of other responses to stock. Many of these aspects of instinct are not apparent on initial exposure of a dog to stock and can only be evaluated with training and careful observation in different situations on stock. Nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 V: That makes some sense but I still don't understand. If sheepdogs are in prey drive how do they achieve drive satisfaction? K9: successfully putting the sheep where the herder wanted them. V: They never get to chase or bite the sheep. This is not their ambition, their goal is to gather & bring the sheep to the handler. K9: see, there is your answer, just like dropping on the run doesnt envolve biting either, but its done in drive. V: A dog in prey drive creeping towards a bird has the expectation/hope that they will get the bird...this is not so with sheepdogs. Also the sheep are well aware of what the dogs intentions are and sheep being worked by a dog who just wants to take them down will often just fall over and wait to die. K9: sheep dogs dont go out & heard sheep with no training, with no training, they would likely chase & bite the sheep, through training, the dogs prey drive satisfaction has been developed into a different satisfaction. The dogs are not in drive the whole time either, that would be impossible, when the dog needs to stop chasing sheep as it has guided them, its going in & out of drive to avoid making an error... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 K9: firstly, I dont watch for my dog to not comply & correct, thsi means he gets a correction "sometimes" & he will always be looking for that some time. Can you tell me what you'd do then? Or could you tell me how I could improve what I'm doing so it's more effective? K9: sort of but you need a dedicated program after your dog has been evaluated. I really really wish that was possible! There are five dog trainers I've been able to track down in this town. Every single one uses only positive methods. None are particularly experienced in dealing with game aggressive dogs, or with Bull Terriers. None will countenance using a prong. None will use an e-collar. The ones who I have contacted have told me that my dog is either "afraid" of other dogs, which even I know is wrong - except for the one who suggested that my dog is just plain "dangerous". I totally agree that I'm by no means an experienced trainer, but I'm afraid I'm all the dog's got at the moment. And thanks for your advice - I really do appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Thanks, I think I understand now. I guess it's just the connotation that "prey" has with an intention to kill or maim that keeps throwing me. K9: sheep dogs dont go out & heard sheep with no training, with no training, they would likely chase & bite the sheep, through training, the dogs prey drive satisfaction has been developed into a different satisfaction. The dogs are not in drive the whole time either, that would be impossible, when the dog needs to stop chasing sheep as it has guided them, its going in & out of drive to avoid making an error... This makes sense, although I think you'd be surprised at how many dogs bred for it do/would in fact herd sheep with no training and never try to chase or bite. I guess sheepdogs have different levels of prey drive like any other dog. I also know a few, who on first exposure, literally wanted to eat the sheep & turned out to be very nice working dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 M: For my super smart dobe (K9 here we go... ) Are you attempting to loosely translate it that he ISNT ????? Carefull.... I might go into a big circle :strong: ;) K9: loosley translated, my dog didnt eat you & your Dobe lol... You could say that..... Back to my dark hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 A: an you tell me what you'd do then? Or could you tell me how I could improve what I'm doing so it's more effective? K9: I cant really, reason being I cant read your dog from here. Nor can I watch your actions timing etc. A: There are five dog trainers I've been able to track down in this town. Every single one uses only positive methods. K9: power to them if they can fix your dog... A: The ones who I have contacted have told me that my dog is either "afraid" of other dogs, which even I know is wrong - except for the one who suggested that my dog is just plain "dangerous". K9: great, which ever the problem, ask them how to fix it. A: totally agree that I'm by no means an experienced trainer, but I'm afraid I'm all the dog's got at the moment. And thanks for your advice - I really do appreciate it. K9: short of waiting until there is a seminar in NZ, many people travel to our facility from near & far, I have had many from NZ, PNG, Tasmania, & all areas of Aust. We organise everything.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) The ones who I have contacted have told me that my dog is either "afraid" of other dogs, which even I know is wrong - except for the one who suggested that my dog is just plain "dangerous". How do you know he is not affraid? Not having a go at your comment, just asking how did you determine that he is doing it in rank drive? the reason I ask is becouse I repeatedly thought that my dog is rank agressive where K9 repeatedly tells me he is fear agressive. Since K9 is an expert and Im not I belive him. BTW regardless if your dog is fear or rank agressive he is dangerous.... unfortunatelly. Speaking from experience here..... Edited June 2, 2005 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 They bring their dogs too? Wow, that's amazing. It would probably cheaper to bribe you to fly over though, lol. I totally understand that you can't recommend a course of action over the net - cheeky of me to ask really. Don't suppose there are there any books you could point me towards, or any NZ trainers you'd recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 V: Thanks, I think I understand now. I guess it's just the connotation that "prey" has with an intention to kill or maim that keeps throwing me. K9: prey drive has nothing to do with killing. The prey may end up dead, then it becomes food. V: This makes sense, although I think you'd be surprised at how many dogs bred for it do/would in fact herd sheep with no training and never try to chase or bite. K9: keep in mind the difference between chasing sheep & herding sheep is control. M: Are you attempting to loosely translate it that he ISNT ????? Carefull.... I might go into a big circle M: You could say that..... Back to my dark hole K9: big circle of avoidance.... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 K9: big circle of avoidance.... lol Still out of control and plain dangerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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