yogibear Posted November 6, 2005 Share Posted November 6, 2005 Have been thinking this over in my head this weekend I guess being involved in competitve obedience having a dog that finds the world a neutral place is a good thing it means we can concentrate on our work without extra distractions. It is definately something that would take a lot of work to produce but in the long run worth it Finding the right dogs for interactions could be hard bt i find old dogs are always a good bet most of them have no interest in young puppies connors dirst interactions with dogs were oldies they are quiet and dont play so make a good choice His biggest problem is being spooky about things but i guess that is also an age thing seven months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 PJ: K9, you have said that the dogs that your dog that is in neutralisation training encounters are dogs that will ignore your dog (sorry about the grammar!). Right, so, you have dogs that YOU can find that will do this. But what about the rest of us, say we were doing neutralisation, where would we find the dogs that will ignore our dog, seeing as a lot of dogs want to interact with other dogs? K9: old, well socialised dogs do this very well, the other option is have an obedient dog in a down stay focus on the handler, then have puppy go near with no reaction form the other dog. PJ: Have I understood this right - what you do is, when your dog is 8-12 weeks, take him out and expose him to all sorts of experiences...Question: What do you do if your dog shows a positive or negative reaction to these things, and how do you make it a neutral reaction? K9: I make sure my voice is a big motivator to the pup, I show the dog maybe a car tyre & expect him to climb through, if he is struggling, I guide & help him with the leash, when he comes out the other side & give him food or prey item. I repeat & when I see the dog activly wantin g to do it, I move to something else. PJ: Do you completely avoid all other dogs in this phase?... K9": dogs that I dont know dont get near my pups. Pj: Then for 12-? weeks, you keep the dog at home and don't expose it to much (whilst probably developing prey drive, I assume!). K9: yes, however, dont use a calender, be guided by the dog temperament. PJ: You do more neutralisation socialisation whilst avoiding other dogs until the dog is about 12 months, K9: yes. PJ: Question: What do you do if your dog does show interest in these dogs? Nothing because it'll soon realise that they're not exciting? K9: leash guide the dog back to me & give him something better... PJ": Do you think that has A LOT to do with the other dog, and how it reacts to her? K9: I think, from what I saw, it has a lot to do with her requiring strong leadership. Try & remember how she behaved in my hands... K: K9 - what is your opinion on clicker training? Seeing as most clicker trainers use free shaping? It seems to be almost the opposite of how you train. I have done a bit of both - clicker and prey. Probably explains a lot of the problems I am having - probably should make up my mind. K9: I havent been able to distinguish the clicker as any better than a verbal marker, so I use verbal markers. I do howver feel as I have control over my voice, I can vary the vlume of it etc, that verbal markers are a good way to shape. I know people who have good success with clickers, & people who have same success without. I would say bridging & marking are good training technique, but your voice vs a clicker is your voice vs a tool. Tess: The second time, she was on the opposite side of the room and has ignored dogs (and Reilly) closer to her, so I find it interesting she doesn't appear to have a consistent comfort circle. K9: thats not so uncommon, each trigger is made of components, this means that a dog in the same room could be more stimuating than a dog the same distance away in a park. I did handle Jyra when I was in Vic last year, she was highly respective of me & in full pack drive for me in minutes, & chose to behave herself very well. She is a hard GSD with drive that will not be handled by someone who isnt a strong leader all of the time. S: From the little I know about ecollar training, observed at Steve's, if I have not got this wrong, this seems to be similar to the early stages of that K9: my program has similar prospects but when I say that, ofetn clicker fans go beserk, lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 PJ: How do you neutralise the dog to people, and which people do you neutralise him to? Is it everyone except you? Or is the dog allowed to have a positive value on the other humans who live in the house with him? K9: if a full working dog, only the hander (ideally) if a pet, anyone in the house. Pj: I think it would be hard to neutralise your dog to people, as a lot of people see a puppy and want to pat it and play with it. K9: from experience, lot of dogs may want to attack your puppy too, but you need to see that it doesnt happen. PJ: What do you do when socialising your pup in public and people go up to pat him? K9: tell them not too. Like when a child wants to pick up a pup... PJ: What do you do when friends and family come over and want to play with him? Do you just lay down a strict line and tell them 'no, I don't want you playing with my dog?' K9: yes, & the pup would be in his/her crate. You might understand when I say peope that come to my place arent too often asking to play with my dogs... lol. PJ: I can see the value of having your dog with a neutral value to people. Not all visitors want an exuberant people loving dog pestering them for attention when they come to see you. K9: im not really concerned too much about the dog bothering them, they get over it, dogs dont. PJ: Another thing, what are your dogs not neutralised to? K9: everything other than prey (just about) that I provide. PJ: You train your dogs in prey drive, so don't your dogs have a high value for their favourite prey item that you train them with? K9: they dont have any prey items, they are my prey items, I lte them play with them now & agin, under my command. PJ: And what about water (as in swimming water) and food, don't your dogs have a positive value for them? K9: water isnt really an issue, they like it because sometimes prey is found there. Food is by TOT, or only from me, so they dont go looking for it elsewhere. PJ: They eat, so they must like food, thus it mustn't have a neutral value. K9: food isnt obtainable in the TOT with my command, & their compliance, hence food only had value when I say it does. In reality, they eat as they need to, not because they love it soo much. YB: Have been thinking this over in my head this weekend I guess being involved in competitve obedience having a dog that finds the world a neutral place is a good thing it means we can concentrate on our work without extra distractions. It is definately something that would take a lot of work to produce but in the long run worth it K9: its not unlike people who go to shows with their puppy, or just take the puppy to "get it used to shows". By the time the dog is a serious competitor, the ring other dogs etc are of no interest... Same thing in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 my program has similar prospects but when I say that, ofetn clicker fans go beserk, lol... I think you will meet blinkered people using all kinds of training methods. And also people who are open to learning and experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 K9: I 100% agree, I think some of them felt I was trying to sell my methods on the success of CT, when I wasnt... It is almost like the same thing, only the aspects are the reverse. The stim, unlike a correction or a click is held at a lower level over a period of time, this allows the dog to slow down & think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I have heard of some people using very low level stim as a marker. i.e conditioning the dog so that the stim was a reward marker, exactly the same way you could condition a clicker as a reward marker. Have you heard of that being done successfully, K9? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 (edited) The stim, unlike a correction or a click is held at a lower level over a period of time, this allows the dog to slow down & think. Hm, that is interesting. I'll confirm that, in a basic sense, the removal of the stim is the marker for desired behaviour, yes? Basically R-? And would you follow up with R+? Like the prey item? Or is that more separate? I have seen some active dogs become almost whirling dervishes during a clicker sesson. Manageable but challenging to someone with dubious timing. So you find that the low level stim will slow the dog down somewhat? Do you mean by that, it won't throw behaviours at you one after the other? Or more slowly? I do believe that many of these dogs can think fast and that fast behaviour does not necessarily mean not thinking (although sometimes it does). I think I am going to find learning more about this kind of training interesting - always good to widen knowledge in useful ways. I can see I will be seeing more of you over the coming year - planning more workshops? Edited November 7, 2005 by sidoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 A: I have heard of some people using very low level stim as a marker.i.e conditioning the dog so that the stim was a reward marker, exactly the same way you could condition a clicker as a reward marker. Have you heard of that being done successfully, K9? K9: I sure have, in fact a friend Lou Castle Im sure knows a guy doing this.. Its not all that new, e collar comps have been talking about a praise tone for year... This just uses the stim.. S: Hm, that is interesting. I'll confirm that, in a basic sense, the removal of the stim is the marker for desired behaviour, yes? K9: yes thats correct. & why I find this great is that people fiund it easy to release the stim, they have wanted to do it since they applied it, but with clickers often forget to click, they never forget to release stim. S: Basically R-? And would you follow up with R+? Like the prey item? Or is that more separate? K9: the beauty of it is that as soon as the dog works out that it can turn off the collar, this is a great time to add your normal motivators, like prey & food... S: I have seen some active dogs become almost whirling dervishes during a clicker sesson. Manageable but challenging to someone with dubious timing. So you find that the low level stim will slow the dog down somewhat? K9: I agree with you on that, I dont start people with clickers but when they come to polish something learned & the dog is CT literate I use one too. But when some dogs understand they are in training mode, they get a little advanced & start jumping around as they know food is coming, you need to get their attention then give the command so you can click. E collar means that when you apply stim, dogs frame of mind goes into the mode "command coming which will equal reward" The dogs apear more clear headed, the commands happen fast. Some people have seen Myszkas dog Rex on the e collar, they all agree that his sit is lightning fast. S: Do you mean by that, it won't throw behaviours at you one after the other? Or more slowly? K9: when trained correctly on the intro, they dont throw behaviours, they realise no default behaviour turns off collar, listening & complying do. Instead of buidling a compliant dog only, it makes the dog more focussed. S: I can see I will be seeing more of you over the coming year - planning more workshops? K9: I intend running more workshops to public in 2006, yes. For training dogs, the e collar in my method leaves the dog clear headed with no turned on nerves. Its the most emotionless communicator there is. There is no witholding food, no high level corrections, no yelling or gruff tones, not needed. The longer stim provides time for the dog to think, you can use this low level to get results over corrections as corrections, to be effective, need to be more aversive, as they are so short in application & as they are an on off thing, they need to be higher in intensity rather than lower to get the message accross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 similar to training horses you teach the horse to move away from pressure then when you want the horse to turn you apply pressure as soom as it turns you release thast the basic ide anyway yb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 K9: yes its called escape training, it works very well on nervy dogs, or dogs with fear issues, the trainer needs to understand how to read the dog very accurately though so he or she may direct the pressure accurately. I use this method on dogs that fear me as the have issues with men, strangers & the like. It works well with leash & collar & e collar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Yup I think i understand the concept behind it makes a lot of sense but you would need to be able to read your dog well to know when they have made the decision to comply so you could release the stim For example You want to recall dog from a good smell you turn on the stim wehn the dog starts to head toward you you release the stim but you would need to be sure he had full;y made that decision to come and not stop of for another sniff after you release the stim Would that be right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 K9: its doesnt have to be as complivcayted as that, if you all the dog its done like this. Stim - command - guide - the dog makes decision to leave smell & stim is off. If the dog decides to go back its stim - command - guide - comply - release stim - reward.. Its a lot easier as there is time for the dog think, under no pain or pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 (edited) Ok that makes sense So you have the dog on a long line to ensure they make the right decision Ok enough hijacking better get back to the original topic I figured seeing connor has a high value on my sisters dog then i need to find something of higher value to keep his mind on me not her today we went to the beach the waves are big thing to him i can get him to work and use chasing waves as a reward but he totally ignores my sisters dog or any dog for that matter am thinking we will do a few beach trips this summer yb Edited November 7, 2005 by yogibear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 yes thats how the guidance takes place. The stim enough isnt enough to make the dog go any where, many dogs will just stand there confused without guidance, you add pressure on the line & to lrelieve the pressure the dog walk your way, this in turn switches off the collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 All makes sense and i can see how it would work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogibear Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Ok so if a dog has put a high value on something then to overcome that we need to find somehitng of higher value to keep the dogs focus on us and not the environment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 I'm interested to learn about the transition between stim - command, and command with no prior stim. Although I am sure there is more for me to learn between now and that. I'd better buy that ecollar training book eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 YB: Ok so if a dog has put a high value on something then to overcome that we need to find somehitng of higher value to keep the dogs focus on us and not the environment K9: Ideally, you set the values in S&N you & your items being the highest. When your dog has a high value on something, it will need correctiosn or a loit of training to re assign that value. S: 'm interested to learn about the transition between stim - command, and command with no prior stim. Although I am sure there is more for me to learn between now and that. I'd better buy that ecollar training book eh? K9: yes its covered in my manual, but it simply works that the trainer begins to apply the stim later & later until it comes after the command, then not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidoney Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Righto that is simple. BTW what does "S&N" stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 7, 2005 Author Share Posted November 7, 2005 If you look at the name of the thread, there is a hint there lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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