Rom Posted July 27, 2006 Share Posted July 27, 2006 I am picking up a foster next week who it seems was fine as a baby but now at 8 months old is apparently displaying fear aggression probs and is a very nervous boy. Owners have done the midnight flit and abandoned the pup who is currently being cared for by a neighbour until he can be collected. Information is scarce ATM until I pick him up...purebred ridgie boy. Would love to be well prepared for his arrival and any suggestions are welcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted July 28, 2006 Share Posted July 28, 2006 K9: take a look at http://www.k9force.net/develop.html & you will see that he is probably in his second period of fear. It hasnt helped that he has been left either... Bring him home with a good version of the NILIF program & start the TOT day one. Dont coddle him or react to his fear. When you release him to go eat the food, pay attention to what he does. Does he eat by running straight to the bowl, back to you, does he half circle the bowl & watch you whilst he eats, does he not eat? Let me know the answers to these questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted July 30, 2006 Author Share Posted July 30, 2006 Cheers K9, I pick him up on Tuesday so will let you know how we go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNTC Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 clicker training and otherwise giving Happy positive experineces with the things she was afraid of works wonders for her. , she used to try to attack any adult or child she saw, children were the worst, with kids when had them play with her, after lots of kids playing with her she decided that kids are the greatest creatures known to man, and she is more trustworthy then a lab when around them. she loves adults too, but not as much as kids because adults prefer to pet her, and she has no intrest in cuddles. dogs she is getting better with, but its taking longer as she is motivated by nothing but fetch, so until dogs start throwing toys for her.... she is getting better with exposure though, the more I take her out and the more she comes accross strange dogs, the better she gets, I still have to be very carefull though as there are some breeds that she is not fear aggressive with but actually tries to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 (edited) OK, Moe has arrived. It seems that the story was very different from the one that I was originally given and I actually picked him up directly from his owner. He is nervous about everything...every noise, every person....poor fella! Stayed for a while talking to his owner and the reason that they are wishing to rehome him is because they don't think that he will be trustworthy around kids. Hasn't caused them any harm as yet, but has grumbled at them. One reason for this was evidently clear...one boisterous 3yo. When we arrived, they were on the verandah and Moe was looking like he just wanted to get out of there. Sat and talked to the owner and just observed what was going on...ignored Moe. If he relaxed at all he tried to get down under a chair or table...but remained ready to flee if need be. He only totally relaxed when 3yo went into another room and then he actually laid out flat on his side. Owner was totally unaware of the effect that 3yo had on the pup and its obvious that the pup had never been given any toddler free time. At one stage, toddler raced up to the pup and smacked him up each side of the head over the ears at the same time, owner didn't do or say anything, pup just about jumped out of its skin. Toddler screaming around verandah with a dolls pram, and pup totally beside itself trying to find safe haven. Even though he is nervous of strangers, he didn't care who's chair he found safety under. I can only guess that this toddler has been the source of much fear and pain for this pup. I feel that she is a dog attack victim waiting to happen because her parents are doing absolutely nothing to educate her. Come time to put him in the crate in the car, we had to muzzle him cuz he wasn't gonna get in the car without a struggle. Poor fella was sooo nervous that he actually wet himself on the way out to the car....at that time, we were just walking him on the lead. He drooled for about the first 15mins of the 45min drive home before he settled. At the moment, I have left him in the crate in the car, with tail gate opened, so that he can settle and learn that the crate will be safe haven for him. Haven't fed him yet and will start with TOT first up in the morning. He has some water, but otherwise has settled for sleep. ETA: Seems that they got him at about 3.5 months old....so he was placed into this environment in his first fear period! Edited August 1, 2006 by Rom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Is it possible that it is too early to start TOT with Moe? This morning he wasn't gonna come out of the crate. I didn't want to force him, but also realised that he'd need to go out to go the loo. He hasn't made an aggressive move yet...mainly avoidance. When I went to let him out of the crate he just went to the furthest corner and tried to hide his head in the bedding. I opened the crate door and just attached a lead to his collar (used a 10m tracking lead incase he escaped. I have fully dog fenced 2.5 acres, so I knew that if he got away, he couldn't go too far, but he could get far enough away from me that I wouldn't be able to catch him if need be) and put a bowl of tucker just out side the door of the crate. I moved away so that he felt comfortable to come forward to eat. He ate about half of what I put out, and while he seemed aware of where I was, he didn't watch me intently while he ate, just flicked a glance in my direction. I let him come out of crate under his own steam so he could wander off to the loo. He made as though he was gonna head for the hills. I was wary of his leash fear, so I didn't want to rely on that if I could avoid it. There was no way he was gonna come within 5 meters of me. My girl had met him through the crate the night b4, and while she was curious, she was more interested if there was any food left around in the car (gotta love a hoover hound :rolleyes:) so she wasn't a threat to him, nor he to her: he didn't seem disturbed by her presence at all. When I first let him out, I left my girl inside. While he was in the paddock his actions seemed to be more about 'How can I escape?, where can I hide?' rather than sussing out his environment. I ignored him and let him be. I then let my girl out and went through a short training session and a game with a ball before I released her to go and introduce herself....she's great in this respect, after the sniffing is all done, she goes straight into the play bow. He took up her offer and they ran and played together for a while and it wasn't until after this that he relaxed enough to relieve himself. My girl also has a habit of grabbing other dogs by the lead if she wants to play, so at one stage she grabbed the lead and they were running along side of each other. If I made a move to go towards them, he broke contact with her to dash away, but if I called my girl to me, he'd move towards us but stay about 10 meters away. 3 hours later....after patience and treats he feels comfortable enough to come sit beside me if I sit on the ground and is actually wagging his tail...he walked beside me back to the house, even though there was a little resistance the closer we got to the house...we was not sure about that. But have taken your advice K9, nervous behaviour is ignored and confident behaviour is rewarded. While he doesn't try to duck away from me at the mo, he does go down to a drop with his head on the ground...does not roll over though. Am I right in guessing that I need to build his trust in me before we start the TOT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 K9: If the dog will eat, start the TOT, this will build trust... Check out the thread unresponsive dog on DOL... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 ROM ..... :D to what you are doing for this dog and from what I read of your post, I couldn't fault a single thing. This dog needs time and you're giving it to him. He'll come 'round gradually. Good for you. Sounds like you're doing a great job with quite a lot of forethought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Thanx Erny! Really happy this arvo...he's coming to me when I call him! Did the TOT with his evening meal and while he was nervous about getting back into the crate tonight, he got in without anywhere near the performance he put on yesterday arvo! It seems now that if something spooks him, he comes running to find me rather than heading for the hills. Am still careful about not rewarding nervous behaviour though. Yayy!! Feels soooo good to have him trust me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 Hi Rom I second what Erny wrote...keep up the good work and good on you for saving this poor creature from goodness only knows what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 3, 2006 Author Share Posted August 3, 2006 High lights of Moe's second day: Had to go into town today and tossed up on whether or not to take him...decided to make it a short trip and take him along. Nowhere near the performance of needing to muzzle him to get him into the car this time! Had him in in 3 seconds flat with absolutely no dramas! He is actually choosing to go to the crate for sleep time now and so I have just been leaving the door open for him to come and go as he needs to, unless I really need to keep him confined. Wondering how much more has been going on in his life that we weren't told about. I gave the dogs both a bone to chew on today and I'm in the bad habit of handing my girl her bone inside and then telling her to take it outside...usually she is pretty good about this, but today she figured she was gonna hang around to see what Moe was going to get. I raised my arm to point to the door telling her to take it out, and poor Moe hit the ground like he was under fire in a sniper attack. There was absolutely no malice in the action on my part...just calmly enforcing the command I'd just given my girl. So had to ignore his nervous behaviour and lure him up into a sit before I let him take his bone. Man, he was sooo happy to have that bone! I went out later to hang some washing out and first up Moe figured that I might be going to take it off him and darted away. But when he saw that I was going to ignore him and go about my business, he come prancing up to me with bone in mouth, wagging tail as if to say...'Look what I've got!' When he is happy and feeling confident, he is such a sweet boy, but when he gets spooked he's a total wreck. It seems that his recovery time from each spooky episode is getting shorter though. I still haven't come across any aggressive acts from him. However, I think he is a bit of a talker...he groans when he's frightened and I wonder if previous owners have misread this to be a growl and punished him? Regarding his leash fear...I wonder if he was actually tied up when he was punished for 'grumbling' at the 3yo? At the moment I'm going out to him a couple of times a day and calling him to me and just putting the leash on to give him a treat, then taking the leash straight off again. He has the eye contact thing down pat in the TOT at each meal....but drops to the ground when I reach for the leash to release him....any suggestions...or do I just keep persisting until his confidence builds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 4, 2006 Share Posted August 4, 2006 He has the eye contact thing down pat in the TOT at each meal....but drops to the ground when I reach for the leash to release him....any suggestions...or do I just keep persisting until his confidence builds? Try working this separately to the TOT. Leash on. Treat (as you've been doing). Reach down to pat (eg. start with a pat to his body, rather than at the neck). Treat. Repeat, gradually bringing your hand forward to pat near his neck and head. Treating each time for NOT dropping to the ground. The goal always in your mind, of course, is to be able to unleash without the drop. You may or may not achieve this in one session. Don't treat if he drops and if he still drops when you remove the leash, simply walk away. When he gets up (as if to come towards you), immediately mark/praise and offer a treat. I think you're doing very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 4, 2006 Author Share Posted August 4, 2006 Day 3 for Moe. I'm amazed at how fast this young boy is changing. Today he is getting into the car and crate with first command and showing very little nervousness about it. Also recovery time after a spook has reduced to be almost non existent, and I'm beginning to hope that very soon, he just won't get spooked! Since I haven't had much experience with TOT before and I'm working it with a dog that previously was unknown to me, I'm not sure how much of this change I can attribute to the TOT. Does it usually work this fast?? Or were his problems more associated with the environment that he came from, and the change of environment is enough to see a remarkable improvement?? He is almost staying in a sit when I reach to remove his lead, still kind of ducking his head, but not so much going down into the drop as he was. Thanks for the suggestions on the lead work Erny, it has really helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 4, 2006 Share Posted August 4, 2006 (edited) Great work, Rom! TOT is great, but I'd also suggest that a good part of what is happening is the trust he's building in YOU by everything else you're doing too and the 'bond' that's growing as a result. Once you feel he's ready to cope with it, don't forget to introduce 'strangers' (eg. your friends) to him and building positive associations with them (and don't be afraid or embarressed to let your friends know exactly what you want them to do - I did this with my friends when I adopted my frightened girl .... they generally enjoyed being part of the 'behaviour modification' process). By then, it should be a bit easier, because his trust in you and your presence will make him feel more confident to approach and be around them. ETA: Once he's confident with the lead, try a little 'agility' work. I don't mean formally .... just coach/get him to step up onto a box and then off, of course letting him know how clever he is for doing it. Sometimes the dogs need a bit of guide, show and place to get them to do it at first, but after that, many's a time I then couldn't stop them! And to see their faces and their eyes shine with their new found confidence was a priceless gem! Edited August 4, 2006 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spoilt lab lives here Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 beautiful work you are doing with Moe, Rom for people like me who dont what TOT means can someone please tell me you never know might need it one day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 5, 2006 Share Posted August 5, 2006 for people like me who dont what TOT means can someone please tell me Hi SLLH .... "TOT" = Triangle of Temptation It is a program that Steve (DOL Name = K9 Force) has pinned to the top of the training forum for people to view and utilise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 5, 2006 Author Share Posted August 5, 2006 Took Moe to a friends place today...He chose to get out of the car instead of hiding in the furtherest corner that he could squeeze himself into. We just sat on the grass and had a cuppa while the dogs all played together ie, Moe, my girl and my friends 3. He is great with other dogs...has absolutely no problem with them. While he didn't choose to meet my friend, he didn't go out of his way to avoid her either. He happily acknowledged her presence with a 'smile' and wagging tail, but didn't really approach for a pat or anything like that. My friend also did not attempt to try and touch him just yet...just verbally praised him when he was near her and acting confidently. The whole picture changed though when my friends fiance arrived. While Neil is a soft spoken and gentle soul who wouldn't hurt a fly, Moe spent the whole time that he was there hiding behind a tree preparing to head for the hills. Hardly took his eyes off Neil...Neil was just sitting on the grass chatting with us and also didn't make any move towards Moe. So it seems that our job is gonna be a little harder with the guys than it is with the gals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 Moe let me trim his nails today without any nervous of avoidance behaviours at all! TOT was very different tonight! I think he has finally discovered food drive and is now really keen to do what ever it takes to get the release to eat. He is showing more excitement about life in general...He's sooo sweet and gentle, I can't understand the people who would just not take 5 to understand what he needed, work with him and keep him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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