Australdi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 K9: Same drive as the dog in the example above would you say? ;) sorry I wasn't trying to say that you were saying the 1st one had a UTI (sorry about dyslexic typo before), just clarifying that mine didn't it was tottaly behavioural...and yes, he's the only one of my dogs I've seen run..when he was chased by a cow of all things! Actually...I tell a lie...one of my friend's thoroughbred colt snuck up on Daim's one time when he was drinking from the bath in the paddock...now this was one sly & cheeky colt...with a wicked sense of humour...(and Daim's had been giving him a bit of a hard time about an hour before....anyway...we all watched this colt tippy toe up behind daims...who somehow didn't sense a thing (some horses can do this...colts in particular!) reach his neck out & snort right up daim's bum! ;) poor dog got such a fright he jumped 2 metres in the air! then turned around and started barking away like a grumpy old man! ...at which Visa put his head down, stamped his foot & ran straight at Daims! seeing as Daims had already some months back copped a bitchy kick from my snotty arab, he made a beeline trough the fence where he could protest at a safe distance! we were all sitting in the jumps paddock rolling around in the grass & trying not to wet ourselves at the sight! ;) ...suppose you just had to be there! he had good nerves...but he wasn't stupid or agressive either yeah both PB dobes have a very strong protective drive....and both perform routine property checks (or boundary runs as I call them) The younger one unfortunately didn't come to me until 4 weeks ago...so he's gone a long time with no discipline...which is probably why he shows less assesment skills and more agressive skills....but I do believe that can be manipulated through good training. Aus ....and yeah...I reckon the edition I worked of was a 1974 re-print! hahaha...any wonder I don't train like that anymore! I have since done training through the dobbermann & others club in Vic...so I'm not as antiquated as I sound! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 A: Actually...I tell a lie...one of my friend's thoroughbred colt snuck up on Daim's one time when he was drinking from the bath in the paddock...K9: ;) Like I said, every dog... A: yeah both PB dobes have a very strong protective drive. K9: there isnt actually a drive called "protection drive"... I would suggest that unless you have trained these dogs in Protection work, they are operating in defence drive... Here are a 'couple of articles that may explain more about your dogs... Article 1 Article 2... I hope this helps you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 sunny70 - with the limited knowledge of assesing dogs nerves I can tell you that in MY opinion your dog has good nerves. Jones (son of Rex, and Bella) is very simmilar in temperament to his parents that were very simmilar to each other. K9 has seen my Rex several times and has told me that Rex has strong nerves, hence my conclusion is based on seeing your dog, knowing both parents very well and having the sire assesed. Both parents had low to moderate prey drive, which in a case of a pet isnt a bad thing, Bella had a marinally lower threshold to defence drive than Rex. If a dog is to survive in your household its gotta have strong nerves He is a lovely pet, Im happy that one of Rexs kids lives in your home, a good home for a dobe ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 K9 thanks for those articles...now we can converse in the same language! :Dked Daims (RIP) had a high threshold for both defense & prey...because I worked in security, I activley trained against the prey drive which was already there. ( I was continually checked to see if I was "working" my dog) he was never a fear agressive (although he could be vocal if he wasn't impressed with something)...rather he would stand, asscess & detain...I can't say too much more, but I actively trained away from the bite. However, even though I could call him off practically everything...I could not call him off when I was being attacked. that is until the threat retreated. he would bail strangers up if they were trespassing & I was not in attendance, but again I could call him off as soon as I arrived. He was not trained to attack....quite the opposite, I actively de-activated that drive in him. which meant I could trust him both within my supervision & out of it to be a "safe" dog (as safe as could be as long as no-one did anything incredibly stupid!) and even then he had a very high tolerance unless I signalled otherwise. (probably said too much there!) He would have made a fabulous working dog, however when I assessed the costs involved, and at the time a man & dog could only command about $45 ph...it just didn't add up (I was already on $23ph as a supervisor!) Zillah has a very strong prey drive (he was surrendered to the RSPCA because he was chasing sheep) again, this is something that I am training to de-activate in him. He also has shown a very high threshold for fear & I haven't seen him baulk at anything yet! in his current state...he's really a liability, as he's had no discipline! , however, he is learning fast & responding well to my commands so I have no doubt that given the time, I can train him into a dependable & reliable dog. Of course my job is just that "little" bit harder because he has already picked up alot of undesirable habits for a companion dog and was 15mts old before I was able to start working with him....quite a challenge! The only way I believe I will be able to succesfully curb his prey drive is by strong alpha leadership ...I'm not saying I want to take it out of him....that's not likely to be possible...but I can get him to the point when he will be able to be controlled in his responses & that's what I'm aiming for. ...but hey...he's still an adolescent...& still requires alot of foundational training that he has missed out on...so I'm not expecting miracles overnight! ;) cheers Di I think we actually have the same sort of philosophies on dog training...just that we are working in different areas...wheras you are looking to harness these natural instincts (due to the nature of the required outcome, I am trying to de-activate them for a different outcome) I also know that Daims came from a strong bloodline of working dogs...so he had alot of genetic disposition in the first place I haven't researched Zillah's bloodlines yet & so I cant comment on them except to say that he haas a number of Ch's in his line...which in terms of temperment...means nothing. ;) Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 (edited) If a dog is to survive in your household its gotta have strong nerves Ain't that the truth !!!! He is a lovely pet, Im happy that one of Rexs kids lives in your home, a good home for a dobe ;) Awww what a lovely thing to say, Jones is a joy and a pleasure to own We are more than happy with his drive and nerves for his job as a lovely member of a noisy family ;) was just curious as I thought it was pretty simple to tell if a dog had 'sound' nerves, but reading this it is far more complicated, but I guess it depends on what you are looking for ??? (as in what you want the dog to do ?) Edited September 7, 2006 by sunny70 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Zillah has a very strong prey drive (he was surrendered to the RSPCA because he was chasing sheep) again, this is something that I am training to de-activate in him. The only way I believe I will be able to succesfully curb his prey drive is by strong alpha leadership ... gimme all the prey drive you are trying to deactivate ;) Im trying to activate more and more in my pet/show puppy. I feel just by reading the above that you dont have simmilar philosophy to K9, he is trying to develop more prey drive where you are trying to diminish it. Maybe the rest yes, but certainly not this part. I also know that Daims came from a strong bloodline of working dogs...so he had alot of genetic disposition in the first place I haven't researched Zillah's bloodlines yet & so I cant comment on them except to say that he haas a number of Ch's in his line...which in terms of temperment...means nothing. ;) Aus Are you able to give me the parentage of the great parentage pls. by pm is fine if you preffer. Total dobermaniak here, thats all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 I feel just by reading the above that you dont have simmilar philosophy to K9, he is trying to develop more prey drive where you are trying to diminish it. Maybe the rest yes, but certainly not this part.Are you able to give me the parentage of the great parentage pls. by pm is fine if you preffer. Total dobermaniak here, thats all actually, I think K9 & I do have the same philosophies...it's just that we're working for different outcomes...he's training dogs as personal protection...whereas I am trying to subdue that natural instinct in my dogs so that they can be trusted in a family/public environment, without being declared! ...any dog which is trained to the level that K9 does is instantly classified in the declared category, which is why I chose not to go down that road with Daims...he was just too much of a sweetie for him to be unable to be run off lead or socialise with the community! + the $4k + that it would have cost to build a council approved dog run!!!! all because he got paid to do what came naturally for him!....I have to stress, I NEVER worked him (although I did train & work my horse ) but daim's & I flew under the radar a couple of times :D ;) check the other thread we've been wetting ourselves over for Daim's lines...& if you really want his full pedigree...I'm happy to PM them to you! & Zillah's if you want..I'd be interested to know more about it as he's from the Aust/US lines that I'm not so familiar with..Daims was Euro lines. ;) Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 (edited) A: Daims (RIP) had a high threshold for both defense & prey...because I worked in security, I activley trained against the prey drive which was already there. K9: Ok Im lost already, high threshold means that your dog has low drive, high threshold m,eans it takes a lot of stimulation to trigger the drive... I have only ever trained dogs for man work in prey drive, the defence training was situational... A: he was never a fear agressive (although he could be vocal if he wasn't impressed with something)...rather he would stand, asscess & detain...I can't say too much more, but I actively trained away from the bite. However, even though I could call him off practically everything...I could not call him off when I was being attacked. that is until the threat retreated.he would bail strangers up if they were trespassing & I was not in attendance, but again I could call him off as soon as I arrived. He was not trained to attack....quite the opposite, I actively de-activated that drive in him. K9: you have just described a dog that had a LOW threshold to defence, a survival most times fear based drive, & that you raised the theshold to defence. This would suggest that this dog was a little sharp or soft in nerve. A: Zillah has a very strong prey drive (he was surrendered to the RSPCA because he was chasing sheep) again, this is something that I am training to de-activate in him. He also has shown a very high threshold for fear & I haven't seen him baulk at anything yet! in his current state...he's really a liability, as he's had no discipline! , however, he is learning fast & responding well to my commands so I have no doubt that given the time, I can train him into a dependable & reliable dog. Of course my job is just that "little" bit harder because he has already picked up alot of undesirable habits for a companion dog and was 15mts old before I was able to start working with him....quite a challenge! The only way I believe I will be able to succesfully curb his prey drive is by strong alpha leadership K9: if he has true, strong prey drive, & has had success at satisfying that drive in the past, strong Leadershop wont get you the results, not what I cal leadership anyway... If he has strong prey drive, then we might say his primary drive is prey, Alpha status has its control in pack drive... You also cant supress the primary drive without giving the dog some form of satisfaction, or it will just end up finding satisfaction elsewhere, thats if the drive is truly high... ************ A: actually, I think K9 & I do have the same philosophies. K9: Im not 100% sure yet.. A: it's just that we're working for different outcomes...he's training dogs as personal protection...whereas I am trying to subdue that natural instinct in my dogs so that they can be trusted in a family/public environment, without being declared! K9: ok were not, training in line with the natural instincts doesnt produce a dangerous dog, & you dont have to be training for personal protection to train in drive. Most of my work these days is behaviour btw. A: any dog which is trained to the level that K9 does is instantly classified in the declared category, which is why I chose not to go down that road with Daims.. K9: Ok, not every dog I train, or have trained is to Manstopper levels, I have two of my own that are, they arent in any way dangerous as they wwill not attack without my say so & will stop as soon as I say, no matter what. But try to remember that I have ran 13 training in drive workshops over the last 4 years, only 20% of the attendants were training for any type of protection. The other 80% were pet owners, sport trainers, retriever people, agility, flyball, SAR, trackers etc etc.. Training to use the drive isnt training an out of control dog, its training a highly reliable one... Khoeler did use corrections to subdue / extinguish drive, with not always the best results... A: he was just too much of a sweetie for him to be unable to be run off lead or socialise with the community! K9: Again there is some missing communication here, my 3 yo rides my Manstopper, they do run off leash, & are no risk to anyone, many have seen them can tell you this, however whisper the magic word & its a lil different. I do understand what your talking about though, its very common in fact to lose the sociability of an attack dog. I know when I had many decoys at my place & many dogs, after the work was done & we have a BBQ, my dogs were the only ones that werent crated as the other just wanted to keep working... The next time I have a training in drive workshop, it would benefit you to come along... Edited September 7, 2006 by K9 Force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 actually, I think K9 & I do have the same philosophies...it's just that we're working for different outcomes...he's training dogs as personal protection...whereas I am trying to subdue that natural instinct in my dogs so that they can be trusted in a family/public environment, without being declared! ahmmmm Im a long standing customer of K9s and dont train for protection, in fact my dogs are (apart from being family pets) show dogs.... I had a lesson a week or so ago for the baby, most of the time doing prey drive work, developing it further and enhancing it. ...any dog which is trained to the level that K9 does is instantly classified in the declared category My boy is trained to the level I set by the methods K9 set. He certainly isnt anywhere near to be classified as dangerous, quite the contrary in fact. (The dog that is, cant say the same about K9 though ) Pedigrees - yes please ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Sorry...maybe I haven't communicated effectively, I was told that if at any stage I trained my dogs to the level of bite/restrain, they would be instantly declared...even if I didn't train him to this level, but worked in security, he would also be instantly declared....maybe the rules are different in NSW...but this was the situation in Vic at the time. Daim's actually was a dog I had full control over...he could be trusted with children...but in certain situations was able to do what was necessary to protect both of us...please understand...I can't say any more than that ;) if I did...I would probably get myself into trouble! daim's was a companion dog, he was obedience trained. that's all I can say. K9...I would love to do one of your training days...but finances at the moment don't permit it...if you ever come down to tasssie, please let me know & I would love to participate, cause I subscribe to the philosophy that you never stop learning ..I suppose what I'm trying to hedge around is that like your dogs..Daim's was a manstopper...but like you he was fully under my control...unfortunately under Victorian law...if you actually work your dog in this capacity, or admit that he is trained to this level...he is instantly declared a dangerous dog & comes under all the applicable by-laws (I suppose because he's dead now, it really doesn't matter what I say anymore) (but I was trying not to say it all the same) I can definately, categorically state, he was not fear motivated..if he was, I would have had alot of problems resulting from some of the situations we found ourselves in ;) I actually trained him in a similar way I trained my personell...assess & use the least force required.....I have found my knowledge in dog/horse training to be just as applicable in human training (believe it or not ) I get the feeling that I'm not describing things lucidly enough (because I'm trying to hedge around legal implications) that you get the feeling we are on a different page...I actually don't think our ideas are that far apart....just that I have a different terminology and way of expressing it, because I have had to (deliberately) train myself not to express it as you do, as I was under constant scrutiny because of my employment & the breed of dog I owned. ...but I'm really learning alot from this conversation, so I hope that we can continue to clarify it all! cheers Di Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 This is a really interesting conversation. Australdi, I just wanted to say that I was also initially really confused when listening to these guys talk! I've learned a lot by doing so, though. Most importantly I have learned that having really high prey drive is a good thing in a dog, since it is a way to motivate your dog really effectively, no matter what you want him to do. I've learned that training in prey drive isn't just for protection training, in fact, you can use prey drive to motivate the dog to do just about anything. Using prey drive doesn't lead to an out of control dog, since you teach the dog that he needs to be in control of himself to earn the prey item. You can use prey drive to motivate quite "calm" behaviours such as heel, down, stay, in prey drive - not just active things like protecting or guarding or tracking. I've learned that you can squish prey drive out of a dog (a la Koehler) - but then how will you motivate him to obey you in the presence of prey drive type distractions (unless you're keen on dishing out really heavy handed corrections to squish that drive even further)? It's better that the dog learns that it's OK to express his drive around you and learns to see you as his best chance of earning prey drive satisfaction, so that he can make the decision to ignore those distractions by himself, to earn the prey reward that you can provide him. JMO - and I should add that I'm totally not an expert on this stuff, just a beginner student. Hopefully will be learning more soon via distance learning! But thought I'd just share what I'd learned so far, from these people and from my own research, in the hope it makes the discussion a little clearer for you. Am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Thanks Am ...I suppose where I'm making things confusing...is that I probably do use prey drive in training my dogs (It's just that due to so many years in the security industry and owning a highly trained dobermann, meant that I had to re-train myself in the terminology I used to explain it, otherwise, I could have landed my self in hot water with council rangers etc...I must stress that I don't use khoeler method now..although I do use a light check chain when in training mode...& yes, I do know how to use it correctly The majority of my training is done in dog language & visual with a strong reward base & a hell of alot of love & companionship! maybe this makes it a bit clearer...when I say I am trying to de-activate the prey drive, what I'm probably describing in the terms used here is that I am placing the control of that prey drive to my control, rather than the dog's decision.... as I understand it....Daim's had a high threshold for defence/avoidance, as it took alot to provoke him to take the defencive stance, he would only take this stance if the threat was real & immanent. He would also call off with one word or hand signal from me & return to a quiet heel sit. (unless I was being personally attacked)..even in this situation, he would use the least force required & would call off as soon as the job was done. mind you, if he thought that someone/something was behahaving with bad manners, he would tolerate, warn & then correct. He was very patient with pups & kids (totally trustworthy with kids..wouldn't even warn them, just try to remove himself from the annoyance), but would not put up with older dogs or humans who repeatedly ignored his advice hope I'm starting to make more sense...I'm just trying to undo years of being very careful what words I used in certain situations cheers Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 (edited) Aus seeing you are new to DOL Ill show you my dog being "trained" in prey drive, "everyone" else here has seen those. Note my dog isnt an obiedience competing dog, he is a pet and a retired show dog. He also doesnt have enough prey drive to be trained in K9s method, this is just play and getting him to do few excercises. Not a training session as such, not a dog with a lot of drive either. It isnt a well trained dog, and my goal is to just have a happy pet. Is this sort of thing you do with yours? although I do use a light check chain when in training mode...& yes, I do know how to use it correctly is there a correct way? why not a martingale for example? Edited September 8, 2006 by myszka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 yes! that is the sort of thing I do! Zillah watched it with me & got quite excited & wanted to join in when he recognised the game! The only thing I do differently, is that I don't play the tug of war game....I'm still teaching Zillah the release command, so won't let him tug against me until he's got that down pat (& at the moment, I don't want to encourage the "bite") he was a bit quick for me last week & scored a "kill" on the ball and the rope attached (cheeky boy!)...so I am using other tools until I have the money to buy another one (and when we've got the off lead recall consolidated) ..I let him have it (the ball) because I wasn't going to get into the chasey game with him, didn't want to encourage the fun of running away from me before he gets the comming to me with a good heel & great pats! :D With Daims (which was a long time ago when we did basic training) I didn't use a ball at all....only verbal & touch rewards. he could recall by hand signals across a football oval, but his heel would always include a circle before he'd come into line..(he's little addition to the game) , because I wasn't competing with him, I didn't correct this out of him...after all, he still heeled! & it was more like play than training The check chain is only used with a very quick jerk release when the dog trys the "I can't hear you" game & correct behaviour is then reinforced by placement. I'm not familiar with a martingale for dogs...but I will NOT use one on horses, because it's simply not necessary if you have good hands & good aids. Plus I've seen them abused too often! ....I can see that the same could be said for check chains but if they are used correctly they will not do damage, but can be useful when the dog is in the dominance challenging phases, or in the very intitial phases of distraction training. but that is just my experience...I'm not saying it's for everyone, or that there aren't other ways to do it BTW...they were great clips! Zillah loved them too! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Love the movies Ohhh to teach Jones to do that !!! (I doubt it ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 I'm not familiar with a martingale for dogs... This is a martingale collar I dont understand what do you mean by those sort of collars being used on horses, or did you mean a head halter - Halti??? I have started using the ball in Rexs training when he was over 5 years old... sunny - you can teach Jones to do all that. If I could teach Rex there isnt a reason in the world you cant teach your dog. and hey there is one more movie for you since you like them if you liked that Karen I can assure you that you can have this with Jones, easy..... I swear Rex isnt that good, I have not trained him properly and dont forget he is dog agro. But hey this is something to aspire to (Divanis auntie) Sorry to take this OT, we should move our dobe talk to sunny's sofa thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 guess where I found Jones when sneaking a read of this thread ??? OK will be back to view movie later...domestic duties beckon :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Australdi Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 Zillah was wearing one of those type of collars when he was at the RSPCA....and he pulled like a freight train....It was the first time I had seen one, and it didn't seem to be very effective on him however one session (Ie: 2 commands with the check chain & he walks at heel on loose lead...) mind you, he's still not fully distraction trained, so I'm not expecting him to remember it when we get in our first doggie group session :D a martinggale on a horse is a combination of check apparatus, which basically pulls the horses head down & in (so they can't see properly!) & also applies an eccsessive force through the bit, which hurts their mouths. & IMHO are down right cruel in the wrong hands! Aus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted September 8, 2006 Share Posted September 8, 2006 it didn't seem to be very effective on him either wasnt fited correctly or he is one of the dogs that needs a prong. Anyway Im happy that whatever you are doing is working for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now