westiemum

Yes I think its what works for different dogs... my 8 year old arthritic boy (arthritis diagnosed during an ACL repair 18 months ago) is on Jointguard, Fish Oil capsules (one a day - as someone said he thinks they are a treat! :p), an oily fish meal a week (mackeral or sardines) and a sylvet capsule once a month. He did really well on cartrophen injections too - so well that the vet suggested we drop back to sylvet capsules, which I can give at home and he's doing really well on those too.

Hope you find a good routine for your dog which works for you.

Cheers,

Westiemum :p

Hi GM,

Good post - its really important to consider as many possibilities as possible as you're right... the EPO shampoos and supplements don't work for everyone. I was lucky they have worked brilliantly for me. Good to hear your Chelsea is doing better.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Persevere - my guys 'played' with kidney all over the kitchen floor the first week I gave them to them. Left some on the floor and walked away - and it was gone a couple of hours later. The next week they ate it straight down. (I warm it through in the microwave, rather than completely cook it. I can't stand the smell anyway :rolleyes: ).

Cheers,

Westiemum

Hi again,

:rolleyes: your guys are gorgeous!!

Couple of other comments -

Malaseb I've found useful for yeast type infections only - you'll recognise the smell - it smells like white bread is the only way I can describe it. I found it effective to reduce the paw licking but only for a few days and then the licking came back - and its pretty heavy duty stuff which worried me for long-term use - so I swapped to the EPO shampoo instead, combined with good paw drying.

Sorry to hear your girl doesn't liek her paws being touched. Here's a discussion of how to get doggies used to nail dremelling here. I'm not suggesting you dremell her nails - but rather the technique suggested here to get doggies used to a dremell on their nails might be helpful in reducing her paw sensitivity - not sure but see what you think.

As to frequency of bathing - I used to worry about that too - but I don't now, now that my guys are so much better - I genuinely think it depends on the shampoo type and their diet.

WD I really think a change in diet will help - my guys get human grade food only - barf/raw/prey diets take a bit of research and time to get organised and used to it - but seeing how my guys have benefitted I now wouldn't feed them anything else - and the little more I spend on their food I more than save on vet fees. My boy hasn't been to the vet for 8 -10 months and my girl since early Feb. They only go once or twice a year now I have everything under control.

As to the carpet, the truth is I have no idea - maybe settrluvr can help?

Good luck and will be interested to hear how you get on.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Hi wylie :rolleyes:

Thanks and good to hear from you.

Yes Eddie the foster westie's skin and coat completely cleared up and he went to the home of his dreams six weeks ago with a new Mum and Dad who are completely nuts about him. And they are keeping up his skin and coat care too with the EPO shampoo - they've become converts too!!

Cheers,

Westiemum

Good on you Westiemum

I was actually going to suggest she PM you for a chat.

I know that you had fun even with your rescue and got him pretty cleared up before rehoming him.

Hi westie dachie,

Welcome to DOL. And I'm sorry to hear about your uncomfortable westie. In a nutshell, Settrlvr's right. If you can answer those questions that will help a lot. And I agree its probably in your garden - but in my experience that was like looking for a needle in a hay-stack - and if you did the allergy testing routine, you may find that its a list of things in the backyard a mile long that your dog is reacting to - so short of pulling up your whole backyard and starting again (and there's no guarantee that that will fix it anyway), you're back to square one anyway.

My girl westie has had similar problems - reddish skin but not severe on her tummy and reddish paws from the saliva of constant paw licking - but luckily no hot spots. So I decided to treat symptomatically. And this is basically what I did:

1. Switched to Evening Primrose Oil Shampoo (vet grade) from here and bathed (double wash) her twice a week until the itchies subsided and then back to once a week. If you decide to try this I strongly suggest you talk to the owners of the site - Lynda or Archie - to get the right shampoo, supplement etc - they are a wealth of information and sensible suggestions. I find their products very cost-effective if you buy them in the larger quantities - and about the same average prices as other similar products if you buy the smaller quantities.

2. Made sure her paws were always dry - got this advice from a great DOLer - sorry I've forgotten who it was. This made an enormous difference to her constant paw licking. So I blow dried her paws really well after baths, remembering to get into all the nooks and crannies, top and bottom. Also blow dried her paws after she had been out on damp grass anywhere (yes its a bit of a pain but well worth it I found). And this made a big difference to her too.

3. Took her off all commercial dog food to avoid any wheat/corn/grain fillers, artificial colours, flavours or preservatives and switched her to a barf diet which I've since modified to include much more prey/whole type food. Recently there was a great thread started by Amstaff Shane which discussed and gave a range of instructions on raw/prey diets - here

Anyway I hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum :rolleyes:

Ed to correct link

BTW your doggies are just beautiful - more piccies please!! Here's one of my guys:

Whole carrots or pieces of carrot. Cheap, healthy, won't aggravate yeast infections and usually on hand.

Cheers

Westiemum :rolleyes:

Must be the day for it Lead and Feather - it sounds like your girl will be fine.

My westie girl, who seems to have a bit of a sensitive tummy, has thrown up three times this afternoon - once on the lounge! - and after the first chuck she ate the vomit. She had half a chicken frame for brekkie, then afterwards I had to go out for a couple of hours - I came home and she threw up - looked like the chicken from this morning and some grass. Yet my westie boy (aka garbage guts!) is fine and he had the other half of the frame and it looked and smelt fine - so I'm confident the chicken frame was fine and not 'off'. She had a chicken frame last Sunday and wolfed it down without bother.

She's snoozing on the lounge now and isn't hot, her tummy was 'tight' and a little distended, but isn't anymore since the last vomit and she isn't in any obvious discomfort. So I'm just going to watch her and give her a little chicken stock tonight (to make sure she's well hydrated) and a light brekkie in the morning.

Any other suggestions, comments or advice??

Cheers,

Westiemum

Thanks Corvus - yep agree entirely about dry food - once I switched to a modified barf raw diet the weight fell off my boy - and its the best thing I've ever done for him (and his arthritis and ACL repair). So now his weight is stable, I want to introduce more whole (ish) prey type foods - and don't they LOVE chicken frames - and they ate kidney tonight without the performance of last week!! (Worse than toddlers!! :p ). So I'm just introducing something new a week and taking it quietly... and we're doing very well!!

Thanks again,

Westiemum

Hi Steve,

Good post - agree entirely.

Agree there is no formula - its basically what suits each dog.

I certainly stressed 18 months ago when I had a fat doggie and was under great vet pressure to reduce his weight - and its the best thing I've ever done for him - but after failing with diet dry food what I did was very unconventional but it worked - and his weight fell off - and you know when your dogs are happy and healthy. And so now I just want to to introduce more variety - but without undoing all our hard work - so some rough guidelines don't hurt.

Yes it is interesting how much we stress over our dogs diet - yet kids are filled up with processed food... hmn... food for thought :D

Cheers,

Westiemum :D

The first advice I'd give anyone contemplating a raw or prey diet is to buy some books and do their homework.

Good as the advice is here, I think it pays to do your own research.

I 100% agree with this.

The thing to remember when feeding a raw diet is that while it involves changing what you feed, it more than anything involves changing HOW YOU THINK about feeding.

Raw diets are NOT about recipes. They are not one size fits all or follow the plan on the bag type diets. Instead they involve a set of principles on which you can base how you feed your dogs. You need to understand the principles first as they will guide everything you do.

I fully understand that some people need their hand held a lot more than that. It can take time to change the way you think about how you feed and it is not always easy (although reading at least one book and following the principles in it is a good way to start). But in the end, when it comes to a raw diet, you HAVE to do the reading and understand WHY you are feeding like that as well as knowing the types of things you can feed.

Well said.

Because we have been educated by dog food companies we stress more over feeding our dogs than we do about feeding our kids.

How much do we feed our dogs? Some people stress like mad over this and they want a set amount per weight and feel they cant do this until they have the formula.

So we give them a formula but is not really the formula because the formula doesnt really exist because every dog is different and needs its own formula.

How much do we feed a 5 year old child ? Ive had 8 kids, 2 step kids, a couple of foster kids and 13 grand kids and I couldn't tell you how much a 5 year old eats as a percentage of their body weight. Ive got an 11 year old now who I think is a bottomless pit and Ive no idea how much he eats in a day . How much per percentae of your bodyy weight did you eat today? You know people at different life stages need different energy levels but we want a formula for dogs

Then we worry that we havent got everything they need covered so we want recipes and plans which we want to stick to rigidly to be sure we're doing the right thing yet we know we cant do that for a child or for us - we know we have to feed them variety ,lots of different foods in small amounts . If I had one recipe I fed myself and my kids I know its a stupid thing to do but yet some people feed the same food or recipe every single feed because they think this way they can give them every thing they need every time.

The biggest problem that you get when ever you start talking about this is that some people advise others and they dont have it all themselves.

There's an article coming up in the MDBA newsletter this month re some of the mistakes people make in feeding BARF instigated by some threads here on dogz where people are sure they have it right. We also have courses on Feeding the family Dog and Advanced Canine Nutrition.

Hi catsmother,

Hey not at all! My new 2.5 litre EPO shampoo arrived earlier in the week and it was like Christmas! And I love the thought that its one less thing I have to worry about for ages and ages! And great smelling, non-itchy doggies Yay!

Cheers,

Westiemum :D

Woohoo just ordered my 5l Vet EPO and 1l EPO Food SUpplement, should be here next week yay! At least I shouldnt run out too soon now lol. I will have nice clean smelling non itchy doggies now, not that they are itching now but they look so good especially the BC, Im excited, sad really isnt it lol

Thanks very much Niki - very helpful. And yes - we'll keep going until we get it right. Watcing them both enjoy their chicken frame tonight was a real joy!

Cheers,

Westiemum :D

Only one query - as I've said before I'm terrified my boy westie will put on weight and then my darling vet will have my guts for garters!! .

So please could anyone advise some quantities suitable for westies? 8-9 kg dogs? Eg is half a large chicken frame about right do you think? At least to start with?

hi great to hear that its all going well.

as for the weight thing- i've found it really easy to maintain Teds weight. he was 8.3kg when i took him to the vet for his vaccinations in Oct. they told me he was a bit overweight. not long after this i made the switch to raw. ted lost that extra bit of weight really quickly BUT i had to take him to the vet on friday and he only weighs 7.6kg i was so surprised he doesnt look skinny at all so he must have been a real porker before! hes pretty muscly now too. but anyway all i'm trying to say is that its easy to maintain weight on the raw diet.

i work out Teds food to be about 200gm a day. if i give him chicken frame it would probably be a half (if thats all hes getting) or a smaller piece plus something else (like a bit of organ etc.) so yes i think half a frame should be fine to start with. there isnt a lot of meat on a frame so you may notice your dogs poop get a bit hard/white. i did with Ted so thats why i will usually feed a smaller piece of frame with some organ, or will feed frame if i notice his poop is a bit soft.

keep it up your dog will thank it for you

Hi Guys,

Well we are making excellent progress - my friend and I have hunted out chicken frames, offal, lamb flaps so far - and I'm gradually introducing more prey type foods (if I've got the gist of it correctly from this thread). My guys had half a huge chicken frame each tonight for the first time - and they LOVED it!! Absolutley wolfed it down (if you'll pardon the pun!).

They aren't that keen on offal, but they did eat it eventually - and they adored the lamb flaps... so thanks for an excellent thread. My friend is gradually introducing a more prey diet to her Dally with red itchy skin and he seems to be better already...

Only one query - as I've said before I'm terrified my boy westie will put on weight and then my darling vet will have my guts for garters!! :) .

So please could anyone advise some quantities suitable for westies? 8-9 kg dogs? Eg is half a large chicken frame about right do you think? At least to start with?

Thanks

Westiemum :D

Hi Clyde,

I can't speak for scotties (haven 't had one since I was 4!), but I can speak for westies - both are double coated breeds and closely related,originating from the same areas of Scotland. Although having said that, I'm no expert so happy to be corrected.

I don't know what my boy westies coat was like originally (I got him as an adult rescue) - but he had to have his coat completely shorn off after he came out of the pf, which apparently can soften up their coats substantially - or else it was always soft - no way to know. And yes he blows up like a fluff ball after a stint with the blow dryer as well! My westie girl has a soft, thin, slightly curly coat, compared to my westie boys thick soft woolly coat. Neither of mine have that wiry top coat mentioned in the breed standard. Yet a recent foster westie did (after we returned him to reasonable health and his undercoat grew back). So three very different coats in the same breed.

So the sort of coat you describe sounds like a breed variation to me - and as long as your client is not planning on showing I wouldn't worry about it, even though strictly speaking its probably a breed fault (The truth is I love the soft coats my guys have - wonderful to snuggle with!)

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Ed 'cos I can't type and spell at the same time.

The cheapest place to buy this sort of stuff I've found on the net is here - and the service and p & h are excellent too.

And if they aren't listed on the website, almost always Trent can get them in for you at a good price.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Hi Happie,

The vet grade is more EPO concentrated. I use the vet grade 'cos its what I've been using since December last year - and when I'm on a good thing I stick to it!

I don't know what the regular grade is like or what its used for as I don't use it - I'd ring Lynda and Archie and discuss it with them - will be the most useful call you can make.

I've just made another order - and although I had to wait for new stock to come in, I've had my usual excellent service from these guys - two phone calls to get the order just right and let me know what was going on - I simply can't fault them - they're great. In fact I I'm happy to pay for this level of service anyway - its so rare these days.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum .

So is there much difference between the regular grade and the vet grade shampoo? Which one is everyone using?

Hi Happie,

I agree with Wylie actually - I think the EPO (which I use ) is incredibly cost effective, particularly the bigger quantities which last forever (if your friends can keep their hands off it!! ) compared to, say, a litre of Malaseb or even the Aloveen I used to use, good products though they are: Here are some comparison prices off the net tonight to keep the playing field level - add at least 10% - 15% for most vets (understandably - and usually more).

Malaseb 250ml 22.00

Malaseb 500 ml 38.00

Malaseb 1 litre 60.00

Aloveen 500 ml 24.00

Aloveen 250ml 16.00

EPO reg 500ml 28.00 or 14.00 for 250ml

EPO reg 2.5 litre 51.50 $10.30 for 500ml or a tad over 5 bucks for 250mls.

And even the 2.5 litre vet grade EPO at 74.50 I think is still very cost effective IMO @ 14.90 /500mls or 7.45 for a cupful!.

So as Wylie suggests, would be a good idea to have a chat with Lynda and Archie and see what they suggest - and stretch to the larger quantity to get excellent cost-effectiveness IMO.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum

This product is so expensive!

Ill love to try it. I think my dog has mild skin itchiness but dont want to waste my money on such an expensive product in case it doesnt work.

I noticed theres a regular grade and vet grade. Which one is everyone using?

And anyone know how much postage is for 500ml?

Hi Everyone,

I use a barfsa distributor rather than buying from a shop - and I gather these people are available in the other states - there is barfwa and barf victoria that I know about .

For roo barf patties I've been paying 17.00 each, and for 4 rolls, delivery is free - although I think the roo, which is apparently becoming hard to get, is going up to 18.50 a roll.

My guys get half a pattie each (a bit over 100gms each which is plenty for my little westies) and so with a fish meal or two a week and rmbs, 4 rolls last me 3-4 months. So I think for little dogs they are fabulous - but can imagine they might be a bit expensive for any big boofas!

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum :D

Anyone know of anyone in Adelaide who does titre testing? And if so, do you know the cost? (This seems to eb a big issue).

Any advice really appreciated.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Hi Jessca,

Here's a link to the Barf Pattie distributors in Victoria - here. This is the same system I use here in SA. I have four rolls delivered (no delivery fee for four rolls) every three to four months or so.

Yes I could make my own but I just don't have the time - so I pay for the convenience of having the patties ready-made for me. And to be honest, these are so well made I'm not sure I could do as well myself - and I wonder about the expense of gathering all the ingredients together for the saem cost or less anyway...

Hope that helps - will be really interested to hear how you get on.

Cheers,

Westiemum

I haven't had a doggie in this situation Jessca, but it did occur to me that barf patties might suit your little one - very healthy and contain lots of goodies, would be a way of her getting meat, yet they would probably be soft enough for her - particularly the pork ones. My westies have half a pattie a day and with veggies are thriving on them... or maybe mash the pattie with some soft veggies like pumpkin? Just a thought...

Cheers,

Westiemum

Ed 'cos I can't spell and type at the same time!

ahh i never thought of them. do you make your own or do you buy them. if so do you know where i can buy them cause when i looked at them a few months ago i couldn't find anywhere that they are sold.

Yancelby- thats good then, casue she needs to put on some weight. and she seems to like puppy food better than senior.

Thanks again guys, narlas going to be very appreciative.

Hey thanks everyone - really appreciate the advice - a friend who is also interested in swapping to raw feeding adn I are going to have a go together - even though I already raw feed I'd much rather try more raw meat if I can.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Westiemum

Hi Dogone,

Welcome to DOL.

I'm not a coat expert, but I've recently had a foster westie who was badly malnourished and had a shocking coat. I spoke with the owners of this site hereand solved the problem - Evening Primrose Oil Food Supplement and Shampoo in my case.

Lynda and Archie are very knowledgeable about this sort of stuff - and my foster, who now has the family of his dreams is looking sooooo much better its hard to believe its the same dog.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Westiemum

Have just read this thread right through - absolutely fascinating..

One question, how do people find the weight of their dogs is when feeding a prey diet?

I know it might be obvious, but I have a foodaholic westie boy :D who puts on weight at the drop of a hat and keeping him on the lean side of normal (under 8 kgs) is critical because of his arthritis and his ACL repair (and apart from the fact my gorgeous weight nazi vet has my guts for garters when he puts on an ounce! ). So feed modified BARF - I use veggies for weight control (with protein) - and his weight has been stable for ages - I'm under no illusions that the veggies hold huge amounts of nutritional value for him.

I'd love to up the offal and prey foods but am terrified he'll put on weight (I've had to work really hard to get his weight down, after I let him get too fat and I don't want to go through that again!) ;)

Very interested in comments and opinions - any advice and thoughts appreciated. This is new ground for me.

Thanks,

Westiemum ;)

Yep its one chicken neck here too in the morning for 8-8.5 kg westies. Its essentially to clean their teeth and give them a morning snack until their main meal at night. I think 5 chicken necks is probably a couple too many - at a guess maybe 2 would be better until you get his weight under control.

And the other advantage of this sort of feeding regime is a vast reduction in smelly poo!! :D

Cheers,

Westiemum ;)

Hi NAO,

Good decision - but then everyone knows I'm not a big fan of any sort of dry food ;)

My guys don't get it at all - I had far too much trouble controlling their weight, even on the so-called low calorie stuff - and they are essentially on a modified barf diet - and absolutely thriving.

My guys, being westies, do well on chicken necks, bones, eggs, yoghurt, sardines, mackeral, barf patties, human grade chewy meat and piles of veggies... and carrot pieces as treats.

Will be really interested to hear how you get on.

Cheers

Westiemum :D