huski

Mita I think one thing that is important to remember is that we don't decide what a dog does and doesn't find aversive. It might sounder kinder to use a vibration as opposed to a static pulse but like it has been pointed out many dogs find the vibration more aversive. We also can't force a dog to have value for a reward, again that's something the dog decides and we can really only work with the natural desire/instinct they have genetically. One common problem scenario when a dog is bought in cor training is that the dog has a long, powerful reward history with things the owners can't control - other dogs, wild animals, etc and no to little value for the rewards the owners can offer and control. What path you'd would take to help them would depend on the dog and what methods they will respond well to, and the owners skill level and goals.

I'm not Cosmolo, but modern e-collar training is about using the collar on the lowest perceivable level for the dog. The dog needs to be taught what the stim means, and many people use them in conjunction with rewards like food or toys. Each dog's working level is different and can change depending on the environment the dog is in, hence why a lot of low output collars have up to 100 levels (or more). Some people use vibration only collars, many e-collars actually come with a vibration option too. But, and I would suggest this would be the same as a loud/aversive noise, many dogs find the vibration more aversive than a low level stim. It can be tricky for some people to understand just over the internet, I find that when people are shown how e-collars work properly in person and feel the stim on themselves it is a lot easier to understand how it is used, and how beneficial they can be.

Hey Megan, this is what my post was referring to; Yes. I have no problem with using tools like e-collars, prongs etc but most people who know me also know I train my dogs to have a very high level of motivation to work with me, training in drive is my preferred method of training, it just doesn’t suit every dog and owner who needs help training their dog. Even if I think that ‘well I could train that dog with x method easily’ the only thing that is really important is what method can the owners use to get the results they need.

Well there's no confusing your passive aggressive post there, Corvus :laugh:

I think you can choose not to use one and that isn't ignorant, I think it becomes ignorance when things like "you are electrocuting the dog" and "it is inhumane" and "every dog and owner can train anything just with +R" are said.

I thought you were aiming that comment at me, hence me saying I don't refer to myself that way? But no need to get snarky...

You're the one referring to e-collar training as 'electrocuting' the dog, if you know that's not how the tool works, why say that It isn't just a disservice, but arrogance IMO, to assume dogs think and feel like we do. We are two entirely different species, dogs are amazing creatures and deserve to be treated as such. I don't love anything in the world more than I love my dogs, but they are dogs, not people, and should be treated and trained in a way that aligns best with their ability to learn.

Firstly, I don’t refer to myself a ‘balanced’ trainer. Secondly, I don’t see where the lack of respect is from myself or other people in favour of the tool? It is only the people who have posted against e-collars that have become emotive in their arguments accusing anyone who is using them as abusive, inhumane etc. I think the posters in support of e-collars as a tool have responded really well considering they are being accused of mistreating dogs and not being educated enough as trainers etc. This is and always has been a heated topic.

I think a common problem with people who only believe in +R is that it shows a lack of understanding of how you can practically apply the other quadrants. I've not ever met any trainer that can only train a dog with +R, it just is not possible. It is really hard to discuss training with +R only people because it turns into an emotive argument, and it is as though the only two options for training is handing over a reward to your dog or beating your dog into submission. BTW, e-collars don't electrocute dogs, if that is what you believe happens it just demonstrates you extreme lack of understanding of how the tool actually works not just training wise but as a piece of technology. Dogs aren't human children and we do them a disservice if we assume they think, feel and learn the same way as a child.

I'm not sure why that's a downside, it's not magic, it's just a tool - of course you need to do training with it? What would you suggest?

I would definitely look at the Ruffwear Webmaster harnesses.

A lot of dog owners and even experienced trainers struggle to get reward delivery right. You can still use rewards in conjunction with using an e collar but the skill needed to get reward delivery right to get even close to the results you can get with an e collar, in any where near the same amount of time is just not possible for some dog owners.

Aidan I agree a lot of average owners who struggle with timing, reward delivery, inconsistent criteria etc. to be honest when under professional guidance these owners often have the best success with e collars and find them easier to use than correction collars like check chains or prongs and can even find it easier than getting reward delivery right. One benefit of using an e collar is that it removes emotion from it, it separates the owner from being the one to give actually a correction or a verbal cue (pressing a button can be a lot easier for owners to get right than giving a leash correction or even giving a reward). It's not a fool proof tool but none are, I have honestly seen many average owners learn best with an e collar, we even had one owner crying with joy recently because he could finally have his dog off leash and responding to him and it Made him feel a 1000 x better connected to his dog as it removed the conflict from their relationship when the dog was no longer buggering off and completely ignoring him. He now enjoys his dog so much more and the dog enjoys a lot more freedom.

Which is why you should test the working level before using the collar every time. It's also why e collars are such a good tool, it allows you to find the perfect level for each dog. "Plenty" of people dialed up the collar to level, say, 100 and just blasted the dog? I have to say I've never come across someone that stupid, though I don't doubt there are lots of idiots out there. I don't believe that anyone blasting a dog over and over on an e collar would find a lack of feedback from the dog compared to flogging it, in both instances you are abusing the dog, the tool you are using is just different. Like I said I don't doubt people like that are out there but considering that e collars are quite uncommon here and not readily available cases like that are really rare. People who will abuse a dog will do so regardless of the tool in their hand.

I don't know of any studies done myself, But from experience whilst I do think you can get a reliable recall using drive or strictly rewards based training, this isn't achievable for every dog and owner, for a range of different reasons. IME I find that when it comes to training a reliable recall I don't know of any other method that will give you a reliable recall as quickly or easily as you can get when training with an e collar. ETA: when I say reliable recall I mean that the dog comes every time. The first time. As soon as the command is given.

I like that video a lot, that dog is very cool. I can't remember if it is that one or another video that shows it walking backwards on command over dozens of meters. Watching the video above should also demonstrate how e collar training can be used without ruining a dog or making it scared or taking its drive away. IME 99% of people who are strongly opposed to e collars and go on about how cruel they are have either a) never used one or come within a mile of one or b) never seen how they are used properly. E collars aren't mainstream training tools in Australia. Most average dog owners don't even know what they are and they aren't widely available or even all that easy to buy here. There are a lot easier and cheaper ways to abuse a dog than spending hundreds of dollars on a remote training collar that you actually have to look for to purchase.

Definitely do more research, I find that people who are hesitant or scared of e-collar training relax and feel very confident about using them once they learn how to do it properly. Like anything, you need to understand it and know how to use it properly to get the best results.

Why is it just e-collars that people think can be mis-used? If the collar is being "pumped up" and causing the dog distress it is not being used properly. Abuse is in the user not the tool. End of story. I've seen terrible fall out from many different methods and tools being applied incorrectly and dogs being abused in many different ways none of which involved the use of an e-collar. Modern e-collar training means that you use the collar on the lowest perceivable level to the dog. Put the collar on yourself on this level, most people can't feel their dogs working level. I have seen easily 100 dogs trained with e-collars, I know many more owners who use them, I have never seen it produce anything other than really super results and happy, confident dogs. I prefer to train a recall in drive with my dogs, but there are many reasons why this isn't the best option for every dog and owner and the reality is that e-collars provide a fast, easy way for many owners to train a super reliable recall in what is often a significantly shorter time frame. If people want a super reliable recall on their dogs and want to use an e-collar properly I see no reason why they shouldn't do so.

I love all the dogs in my life dearly and would be devastated if anything happened to them but my baby Wisdom is my heart dog, I never experienced having a heart dog before Wiz. She's everything I want in a dog and more and I feel a connection to her like nothing else. It's not something that I can even really describe in words.

I think it also depends on what you want in a dog and as a pet as to whether a WL would suit. At work the family pet dog is a WL GSD. He is awesome with the kids and has no where near the drive our Mals have, he also has great solid nerves which is ideal in a pet dog that will be around kids. He is still more dog than some people would be happy with, so I think it comes down to getting a dog to suit your life style. Being WL doesn't mean the dog is out of control or unsuitable for people with families. Our Mals are also awesome with kids and love chilling inside with us.

I actually don't find their temps to be all that similar, there can be some big differences. But you see Malinois being used by the military, police etc more and more now over GSDs. There are still some great GSDs out there but as others have said, working line GSDs aren't suitable for everyone (not that any breed is).

and usually answered by a smartarse wooowooowooooo from said beagle LOL :laugh: :laugh: Exactly! LOL

What is the reasoning behind feeding rice? I wouldn't bother it is just a filler and has no real nutritional benefit. If you don't want to feed 100% raw mix the biscuits with raw food, natural yoghurt, sardines, raw egg etc and feed raw meat bones too.

I also frequently refer to Wiz as "MALINOIS" in a doom-y sounding voice LOL

No it's usually more like a "beeeeaglllllllle!!l" said as though you are shaking your fist and extremely exasperated :laugh: