MissMonaro

When looking into EIC (some referred to it as heat stroke or a form of epilepsy), years ago, I thought Australia was relatively safe (but had heard otherwise).

Interesting.

I actually know of a couple that bought a pair of litter mates. Not sure which bit below happened first as it was many years ago...

1. Taken in for desexing....one, no probs....but there were complications with the other one and she was pulled out of the operation and not desexed. I think she had a fit.

2. One particularly hot day, they took them to the beach.....brought them home and the same one above had another fit.

Apparently not the first time, as she had had minor quirky things before, like being exhausted and collapsing...but never fitting.

The vet did do tests for epilepsy, but I think the prognosis was inconclusive.

Now I am wondering if it possibly was in fact EIC.

Expecting a litter of labrador retrievers December 5. Didn't need to ultrasound as it was very obvious quite early she was pregnant and she is growing larger each day.

Our girl is almost 6 weeks now and only just starting to show (turns out there are a few in there). You really wouldnt know just looking at her as she just looks well fed. :nahnah:

Thanks everyone.

She is 5 weeks and compared to some of the pickies you guys have been putting up, I thought she's not really showing much at all.

Yet I just looked at her tonight and thought OMG - she is starting to look quite pregnant now.

I'm starting to get really excited now.

Well exciting news for us this morning..........confirmed pregnancy

;)

Labrador puppies due about 5th December.

Beautiful pickies as always

That is one seriously cute puppy

But their feet all smell like Doritos

I'm not in the habit of smelling dogs feet, so I'll take your word for that one.

Seriously - blacks do smell very different to yellows when being hydrobathed.

ummm....interesting - will make mental note to maybe think about this next time I hydrobath.

Although have to say, with both my yellows - as soon as you wash them, the first thing they do is try to become black or chocolate straight away.

MM I have seen you do it tough for a long time and I have great respect for your persistance. You've worked hard for your success

Pointeeblab.....it has been a long tough haul so far, thats for sure. I still have that desire to succeed - and we finally have some sound dogs to work with - but do have to admit that this last year has been the most challenging in regards to ppl within my breed (unfortunately) and hence why I have felt very disheartened and have felt several times about giving the breed up.

But everytime I step out my back door and see those beautiful faces light up, I realise that I still get so much enjoyment from my Labs and I really do love the breed.

So I'm not quite giving up just yet.

p.s. I was going to add.....maybe its one of those rare "charcoal" ones from America.

Pesh - nothing really to add from me - sorry I cant offer any advice - except I have seen some black dogs that look "black" and some look black, but when standing together, the colour isnt quite as deep.

I'm hoping you mean the 1st December she is due.

How far on was she when she had the ultrasound ? Labs can hide the pups up under the ribs which making it hard to get an early ultrasound result. I would of thought the best time to ultrasound would be now at around 4 weeks.

Sorry 1st of November

Ohhhh I misread.......in that case thats only a week away. You would of thought then if she had an ultrasound at 4 weeks, then they would of saw something if she was pregnant.

I'm hoping you mean the 1st December she is due.

How far on was she when she had the ultrasound ? Labs can hide the pups up under the ribs which making it hard to get an early ultrasound result. I would of thought the best time to ultrasound would be now at around 4 weeks.

This one was definitely mated.I cant feel anything moving but she feels pregnant.

I've had scans done using both methods and have had positive and accurate results (including predicted numbers) from both methods.

I have had some corker of phantoms as well - just like Mikelli explained - right down to the "look quick I'm in labour" actions. So much so that I actually took her to the vets and said "are you sure she's not pregnant?"

We had a similar thing with a staffy bitch we had (ok, it was before I saw the light of the purebred dog world ) and we had mated her and she went through the whole thing, right up to the panting and nesting in the yard.....when nothing happened, we rushed her to the vet, and turns out she wasnt even pregnant.

this may be abit :offtopic but had an unregisted breeder ask me to use one of my dogs for stud. and when i said i wouldnt and cant do it for code of ethics. she said but i do not want to register the pups or anything i just need a dog to put over me bitch . The same thing, the bitch needs to have a litter of pups before i spey her.

I think this person is doing a bit of a phone around with the same story.

This was in person, miss monaro

Must be a few of them on the loose at the moment.......wanting to breed xmas puppies no doubt.

When you guys have ultrasounds done on your bitches for seeing if they are pregnant is she scanned lying down or standing?

Ive got a lab bitch here which was mated before she arrived here in foster care. She had an ultra sound before she was flown down and it showed no pregnancy and the vet explained her teats etc as a phantom. If this is a phantom she sure is good at it and she is growing more round every day. Everything I know about how dogs look when they are pregnant is telling me she is and Ive seen a lot of them. One breeder of labs has told me she may be pregnant but the scan was done wrong because she was laying on one side and its more usual to do a scan on a lab standing.

How far along would she be Steve ?

I've only ever 2 ultrasounded for differing reasons ......but both were lying down on the table. The 2nd bitch we know was mated, but didnt get fat at all. Ultrasound showed only 1 puppy (which some might remember was my little hairless girl). The first bitch we never felt the babies move and she hid them well for a small dog...but she had 7 (6 surviving).

But on a side note.....I also have a bitch that has/had full on phantoms. So much so that her teats would swell up and the milk would drip out of them.

Earlier this year I had her desexed as she was due in season again, and the vet who did the op said there is no way this bitch was coming into season again.....she had cysts in her uterine horns. She said it was like for all intent that the bitch thought they were babies. Turns out we were lucky we made the call when we did.

this may be abit :offtopic but had an unregisted breeder ask me to use one of my dogs for stud. and when i said i wouldnt and cant do it for code of ethics. she said but i do not want to register the pups or anything i just need a dog to put over me bitch . The same thing, the bitch needs to have a litter of pups before i spey her.

I think this person is doing a bit of a phone around with the same story.

Very perceptive MM - I didn't notice the two point 2's.

The issue I have with Main/Limited register is this.

As you know Childbride and I always try to "run on" the best two/three babies from our litters for ourselves.

That way we keep the best for our show team or to supply for "show puppy" orders.

All of the other babies are placed on the Limited register - because in our opinion they are not show quality.

It's not that they aren't high quality youngsters - just that they don't meet our high standards/hurdle rates.

But a significant number of breeders are using Limited vs Main register as a financial negotiation tool.

Example - this puppy will be $1,100 on Limited register, but if you want it on main rgeister it will cost $1,450.

Now Limited registration means not suitable for showing or breeding .

A puppy simply can't go from being unsuitable to suitable in the blink of an eye.

Far too many unsuspecting puppy buyers purchase inferior quality puppies on main register in the mistaken belief that they are of show quality.

And when they fail miseraby in the early Baby / Minor classes these people disappear never to be seen again.

Or - as you suggest MM - they reappear two years later in the litter registration listings.

Thanks for clarifying. All my pet home pups go on limited register ....even the last pup I ran on for the show ring, when I decided nope, not quite happy - I sold her on limited register to a pet home. Any of my older dogs that dont pass testing, although on main register they are desexed before they leave.

And sometimes even the most experienced of us can and do make mistakes.

I had a recent experience with some newbie clients - all they wanted was a Black, Male PET quality puppy.

I had one available and away they went - nice puppy but a bit too overdone for a show puppy IMO.

At 12 months of age these people expressed a desire to show the dog.

As I'd predicted the dog was too strong in head, quite a dominant temperament and not enough backend.

I tried to discourage them on at least 3 different occassions but they wouldn't let up and eventually I gave in.

I signed the document to transfer the dog from Limited to Main register and guess what happened.

The dog has been belted every time it has been entered in an Open show (and deservedly so too).

Now I'm the one copping the "criticism" for selling these people a dog that's not of "show quality".

If these clients had been "up front" with me in the first place I would have ensured they received a "show quality" puppy.

So should I have refused to transfer the dog from Limited onto Main Register?

Should I have simply ignored their requests entirely and stood my ground?

Or did I do the right thing by allowing these people to experience first hand just how hard it is to exhibit a mediocre quality Lab?

Had I not relented the CCCQ would have missed out on yet another membership, as would the LRCQ.

And just maybe these people will get the message, book a show quality youngster in the future and become dedicated long term Lab enthusiasts.

I have a few comments here....

Firstly I dont think you were in the wrong at all. You sold them what they wanted... a pet puppy. I tell ppl straight up that all pet pups are on limited (refer above) and that main register is by negotiation only. I also explain that limited is NOT for showing or breeding, but you are able to compete in obedience etc.

We would upgrade to main if the ppl wanted to show, but only if WE beleive the dog is suitable.

Now for the next thing.....apart from your prefix being attached to the dog that is paraded for all to see - but there are plenty of those "other" purebred breeders that will sell on main register, so in saying that, I think it isnt always a bad thing for people to show a mediocre lab to start with. (note I said mediocre and not downright awful). Because you get to learn on a not so good dog, make some mistakes, and then progress with a better dog etc.

A lot of pressure is put on new ppl when they first step into the ring. I think the first dog we ever seriously showed...was a chocolate lab (quite a few years ago now) and as newbies we were swooped upon and well the ones that were doing well in the show ring didnt hold back on telling me what an idiot I was for showing a choc....blah blah blah...and I'll never get anywhere with it. Of course my thoughts were what difference does it make to you. You didnt breed it, you arent showing it and you'll be getting our "1" point everytime you beat us. Of course, those comments dont do much to booster my 13 yr old daughters confidence very much at that time. But we felt we are learning, then when we get better, we'll get a better dog etc.

On a side note, getting a show quality puppy when you are a newbie, is near on impossible anyway. You just have to go to the threads on this forum to see there are a lot of stipulations with some dogs, others just wont sell a pup to a show newbie either. And the problems with going to a local breeder is that they are going to keep the best 1 or 2 pups for themselves anyway and it means you'd be competing against them as well. (I'd be wrapped to see a good dog winning with my prefix on it though)

I'd be interested to hear other opinions please - I've beaten myself up enough about this particular incident.

And just in closing MM - I understand how difficult it must seem at times trying to get reliable advice.

But there is nothing more frustrating when one's advice is eagerly sought after and it is provided openly and honestly.

And in the very next breath the newbie goes and does the complete bloody opposite - and guess what?

When things do go wrong who do they turn to for a shoulder to cry on?

The original breeder they sought advice from in the first place - sigh.

Reliable advice is definately hard to obtain. I remember you and I engaging in a conversation at a show once for quite a while, and then having to cop a roasting from other ppl in our breed who beleived we were talking about them - (ummm...we were discussing Labradors) - the other side is asking advice from ppl you are constantly competing against - how do you really know they are being genuine helping a newbie? With ppl chirping in your head constantly about this breeder and that breeder etc, it really does do your head in. It is one of the reasons we sit by ourselves at shows and not with lab ppl, as it just gets a bit hard at times.

Mentoring implies a two-way street in my mind.

It suggests to me that a new exhibitor/breeder will commit to supporting an experienced breeder in such a way soas to serve an "apprenticeship".

By that I mean - to help and assist with handling the dogs and "learning the ropes" until a suitable show puppy becomes available.

And it also suggests that the breeder will take a chance on a "newbie" in the hope that they eventually develop the necessary smarts.

Far too many are in it for a quick fix IMO.

And there are also significant numbers of what I describe as "back door bandits" - these are people who won't front up and place an order for a top quality puppy directly - they lurk in the shadows and "aquire" dogs and bitches from particular bloodlines through the "backdoor".

They won't wait, don't want to "waste time" learning - they've got to have something RIGHT NOW.

And in so doing they again end up with something which is mediocre at best and then they wonder why they never make any headway.

Anyway - I've had enough of a vent - time to sit back now and wait for the fallout.

no fallout coming at all, but like you say it is a two way street. You have been in the breed a long time and look at things differently say to someone like myself, not a total newbie, but still relatively new - and although we might see things differently, but I think its good to be able to discuss both sides and get a perspective from another angle.

We've been given some advice...um...lets say "points of view" over the time we have been in labradors.....some we have taken on board, some we havent. But....and I do have to say....when you are burnt a few times by those u thought to trust, then it does become difficult to put your faith in others advice or POV

Thanks Blackdog.

Although I do note you have two no. 2 points.....

I definately do agree on some of those points, but can you clarify a bit more on the limited / main register thing a little bit ??

As for the "new" people coming in to the breed. I think there are plenty of those - too many that unfortunately, and I refer to your points, are breeding strictly for the pet market, and or following that quick colour fad thing, and never do anything to actively promote the breed.

We are relatively new to the breeding side of things and we have found that sadly there just feels a real lack of "genuine/honest" people to talk too and/or help/mentor new breeders.

Dont get me wrong, there are a small amount of breeders that have been helpful to us and for which we have been most appreciative....however, we have also found that some breeders are all too quick to cut each others throats, and trying to find information about certain "lines" is like banging your head against a brick wall at times. This is very disheartening and also why many probably don't stay in the breed, or drop out of the system, and breed "pets".

:D ;)

Just waiting for you to give us your answers to the 3 things.

I do like the pink nails.....

I hope they find her soon. Best of luck.

Blackdog - Now that we have given you our thoughts.....I'm sure we'd all like to hear yours on the subject.

thanks so much for the info! ive done alot of research on the topic but this info is much more direct. My lovely boy is almost 15 months now and has been under the direction of my new vet for the past 2 months. xrays were taken about 3 weeks before he suddenly bacame almost parralysed. He slept all day and nignt for 4 weeks when it just happened. Swelled up like a balloon in front legs and hocks. antibiotics reduced the swelling big time but is still quite lame. we are not sure if the dysplasia has anything to do with the possible polly arthritis yet. we are holding back on more x-rays(3rd set) and blood tests as we have not even had him a full year yet and dont have endless funds to spend on an already compromised dog. He's also suffered mange, and an enlarged prostate. He is desexed now.

out of interest, how did you manage your affected dogs and how long did they last????

Sorry to hear about all the problems you have been having with your boy.

We hip and elbow score ours around 14 months of age. The ones that did not pass as suitable for breeding, were desexed and rehomed to family homes as pets. However, none of mine ever swelled up, or had any form of paralysis like you are saying you have encountered with yours.

Are they sure that it is to do with the bone and not a muscle or ligament type of issue ??? The two issues might not even be related.

One of our oldies does have hip dysplasia (not one I bred). She was desexed and we still have her. We always felt that if she could have 6 "good" years then we would never put her through an expensive hip operation. She is now 8 years of age and still will chase a ball and play with the younger ones. She does let them know when she has had enough. Winter is the worst though and we ensure she is kept warm (for the athritis) and she is currently on glucosomine and fish oil tablets.

A friend of mine also has a labrador that was diagnosed with HD at 10 months of age. This dog also has PRA and was starting to go blind by 4. Her dog has just turned 11 and is still going. No operations, but just management of the issues and she gets catrophen injections.

Have you considered taking him to see an othapedic specialist ??

One of mine did cruciate damage and had a broken foot (due to another lab grabbing her leg whilst running) and the after hours vet I saw at the time wanted to do expensive surgery to fix. As she was possibly pregnant, an operation was also out of the immediate question and we had some decisions to make. I said I'd like a 2nd opinion and it was my own vet that told me to see a specialist.

The specialist splinted the leg....long story short....after pups were born, back to the specialist and he felt it had healed well and so no operation was necessary. Yahh !!

So these things are not always the end of the world.

This is a subject that I have unforunately dealt with a little too often with dogs I have bought.

So here is some information that I have collected along the way.

Just because both parents are a 0:0 does not mean the pup cannot get Elbow Dysplasia.

One of mine came from a line of good scores, so on paper, all would appear good. BUT.... turns out that a certain dog or line in the pedigree when doubled up has caused a double/triple up of the gene (in a quick explanation) and hence produced a problem.

When did you have your dog hip and elbow scored ? I am assuming the dog is now over a year old ?? The dog can still be fine for a pet, but I wouldnt include it in my breeding program.

The research from the continents of Europe, Britain, Australia, and USA has shown that elbow disease is inherited . There is also information to show that those dogs with the more severe lesions are most likely to produce puppies with serious elbow disease. Consequently grade 3 elbow disease dogs should not be used for breeding and the grade 2 cases should be considered as serious risks.

Moderate Arthosis (Grade 2) = one or more of the following findings:

• (a) osteophytes 2 - 5 mm high on the anconeal process

• (b) moderate osteophyte formation (2 - 5 mm in any direction) on locations b, c, d.

The front limbs of a four legged animal act as the animal’s fulcrum. Imagine a dog as a teeter-totter. The head and neck form one end, and the back and hind legs the other end. If a dog has hip dysplasia, it is possible for him to get up from a sitting position by throwing his head and neck down, thereby lightening the load on his rear. He can also trot around with his head down. Watch for it in the show ring! It is not possible, however, for him to lighten the load on the front legs in a corresponding manner. Elbow dysplasia is most often bilateral, though one leg will appear worse than the other. A dog with elbow dysplasia will exhibit great difficulty in lowering his front when he tries to lie down. He will lower each leg a little at a time. He’ll rise to a sitting position in a similar manner.

Grade I Elbow Dysplasia

Minimal bone change along anconeal process of ulna (less than 3mm).

Labrador Retrievers (By Birth Year)

1990 thru 1993 3,492 Labradors evaluated, 11.5% ED

1994 thru 1997 8,915 Labradors evaluated, 12.3% ED

1998 thru 2001 10,703 Labradors evaluated, 10.1% ED ( = 1070 dogs affected)

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected.

However, multiple current studies (1, 4, 5) have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high.

Grading System:

Grade 0 = normal elbows (no enthesophyte formation)

Grade 1 = Mild ED (<2mm thickness of new bone formation)

Grade 2 = Moderate ED or a primary lesion (2mm to <5 mm of new bone)

Grade 3 = Severe ED (5+ mm of new bone formation or UAP)

In fact, one study found that the heritability factor of elbow problems was even higher than that for hip dysplasia!

If you were asked to nominate the three most important things confronting our breed what would they be?

Okay...not sure if this is what you mean but genetic issues aside......

1. Popularity - its good that its a popular breed, however, with this comes an over abundance of breeders. Okay, supply and demand etc....but a lot are just breeding "purebred" labradors, and IMO a lot of Labradors that are not the best quality.

For those that know me personally, know that I have an passion in the chocolate labrador, which I have had for many years.....but unfortunately again, due to popularity and "colour fads", it is disheartening to see the amount of them being produced to satisfy a fad, again.......quantity over quality.

2. Public perception of a negative kind. Having to defend the breed from those that repeatedly say "Labradors bite".....all dogs can BITE. I find the worst offenders are those concerned with BSL and with one of the worlds most popular breeds, they would do better to have us on their side, than continue to alienate us and our breed with these derogatory comments all the time.

3. Still thinking of a third thing........will ponder that some more.

My girl only stands at 20" tall - is small for a lab - and quick. I wouldnt want her to do the top height thats for sure.

She's quite happy to just plug along at her own pace.

There were others with labs also doing training and they can jump - but the key is exactly that - keep them lean and fit !!! NO fatties.

I've also seen afghans and great danes and all sorts of breeds doing agility and the top dog at our obedience club for agility was a cavalier king charles.

Apologies - havent been back into this thread for awhile.

As for the agility question - I have a lab at home that absolutely loves the excitement of doing agility training. I could go further with it but I dont think we'd be competitive against the border collies etc.

So they can do it.

MissM, yes it is ok for long coated breeds, but you need to get rid of excess moisture first.

Normally I do towel them down after their hydrobath....so would that be enough "excess moisture" removed you think ?

I've never used a dog dryer before so have no idea at all.

We had a havanese visiting once and used my hair dryer on him....tried that on the aussie and it did nothing but annoy the dog more than anything.

That was great :D