myValkyrie

Having recently had a similar experience....all I can say is I feel for you. Horrible position to be in with little chance of a happy outcome for all. Our situation was a bit different in that we adopted our guy from the pound rather than purchasing him directly from the owner. We opted to return the dog....absolutely heartbreaking for us & still not sure I have done the right thing

How old is the puppy? I'd be hesitant to write off a BT pup's mouth as a baby....as a bull breed with a unique head shape, their mouths can do some pretty funky stuff as they grow, change teeth & that head starts to 'crank over'. I'd definitely agree if the bite is undershot now, it's gone......they rarely improve. Personally, I prefer to see a BT baby a little over rather than a scissor bite.....far more chance of finishing at maturity with a sound mouth. It may mean he is unsuitable for breeding - depends why his mouth is faulty & how bad it is. Were you planning on showing him too? A mouth fault will really hinder your success in the all breeds ring.

Really unfortunate situation. I see exactly why those who oppose this are agitating for him to be caught - the dog poses an unnecessary risk not just to himself but those around him. Would I be ok with it if he were one of mine? No - I don't think anyone would. I also understand that capturing this dog will probably mean euthanising this dog. I agree that this Maremma has made a choice....if he wanted to be a house dog....he would be. I gather he has owners.....what's their role in this?

After years of owning nothing but Bull Terriers, I too was a wee bit "terriered out" :) So when my kids took an interest in showing, we looked for something a bit more manageable for a young child. Absolutely lovely little dogs - I had not owned a spitz breed before I found these guys very trainable & easy to get along with. Wonderful attitude.....they bounce through life & find the fun in everything :) My eldest had an absolute blast showing.....they are well aware they are gorgeous & more than happy to strut their stuff. They love to be involved in whatever you're doing and are a very robust, active little dog under all the fluff. The coat isn't nearly as much work as it may look.....which is great because they looove water. Get along well with other pets (I would be careful with guinea pigs & the like tho) good watchdogs & totally adoring of their family. Can you tell I still miss mine

We live on acreage & the entrance gate is locked if there's nobody home but we still have signs that say: "Livestock Guardian Dogs Loose on Property. Please Sound Horn or Phone xxxx xxx xxx. Do Not Enter Unless Accompanied By Owner" - I carry my mobile at all times for this very reason. That way we have provided instructions as to how to obtain access to the property in the case of Ergon etc. & have also notfied the general public ie. the census guy who freaked out when he ignored the sign & jumped over the locked gate, that the property contains working dogs that don't have much of a sense of humour when it comes to uninvited visitors. I'm not sure how it would stand up legally but I have done my utmost to provide reasonable access - most people call & I simply escort them where they need to go.

I've watched this video before & I would agree with some of what the rancher says regarding the differences in working style of some of the breeds ie. 'the Kangal stops chasing when the chase ends' is exactly how my girl is. She would leave her flock to pursue a threat & continue to chase well off her territory. My Maremmas would not leave their flock unattended & could care less about a threat that is rapidly vanishing over the horizon - once it's off their patch. I would argue his point that 'they are like big teddy bears & they are only aggressive to predators, not people' though - ours will behave in an aggressive manner towards anything that doesn't belong here, as far as they're concerned, people are predators. I also didn't agree with his comments regarding numbers of dogs being reliant on number of sheep/cattle they are guarding - we've found it's more about the size of the area & the predator load (and type) the dogs need to deal with that matters. Plus balancing the individual working style of your particular dogs - we use packs of 3 (didn't really plan it, it's just what has worked out) & in each pack there is an alert dog, a patroller and a fall back dog (in no way official terms, that's just what we call them :)). This. They work together & back each other up. We found a couple of dead foxes, 1 dead wild dog, 2 crows & an eagle in the first year or so that we had the dogs in the paddocks (along with lots of speedily departing town dogs), nothing since then. One of our neighbours has lost over a dozen kiddies to crows alone this season, another who shares a boundary fence with us lost 3 in a morning. We've not lost an animal to a predator.

I too would be interested in what the charges are. After viewing the Facebook footage, I saw maybe not new or super-flash kennels but they were solid, secure, clean & roomy with good light & vision for the dogs - I really liked the drop cloths on the sides for when the weather is bad, neat idea. I saw friendly relaxed dogs in good condition & as someone else pointed out - a heavy coated breed with big grooming requirements, in gorgeous coat - along with lots of bright eyes & waggy tails. I know if someone were to sneak onto my property tonight (assuming they weren't bailed up by a cranky Maremma) they would find things that could be made to look terrible. I have a Maremma bitch recovering from surgery to remove a tumour - she's healing well but the wound looks very large & nasty, she's still very sore and she's missing her coat from the hips back - she would look dreadful to someone who didn't know. I have an old buck who injured his foot - it's been treated & he's a lot better, though still quite lame (& milking it for all it's worth - goat muesli apparently is the only thing that makes him feel better :) ). I also have a yard full of fresh weaned kiddies who are crying piteously for their mothers & are a picture of abject misery when they don't have their heads in a feed bin or too busy playing. Context & perspective make the difference. With the Facebook footage in mind, I think if this lady is convicted (if the charges are cruelty/neglect/mistreatment related), you can kiss dog breeding as a hobby goodbye.

http://www.news.com.au/world-news/california-cops-shoot-rottweiler-dead-in-front-of-owner-leon-rosby/story-fndir2ev-1226673433471 DISTURBING video that has now gone viral shows the moment police shot dead a dog as his owner was being arrested. The dog's owner, Leon Rosby, was taking video of police officers in Hawthorne, California, on Sunday evening as they surrounded a house where two people had been robbed at gunpoint in a non-related incident. Police complained about loud music coming from Mr Rosby's car as he was outside the vehicle with his 60-kilogram Rottweiler filming the scene on his phone. As they come to arrest him, Mr Rosby puts his dog in the car. However once he is handcuffed the dog jumps out the car window and then lunges at one of the officers as he goes to grab the leash. The officer then shoots the dog several times. WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT To view the video please click here. Mr Rosby told the Daily Breeze that he was left devastated at seeing his three-year-old dog die in front of him. "I was crying and hollering, 'My dog! My dog! Max! Max!' " he said. "He literally shot my puppy I had since he was 6 weeks old." police shoot dog dead Leon Rosby films police in Hawthorne, California. "There was no way Max should have died like that," Mr Rosby said. "Max was only protecting his master. He was trying to stop them from beating on me." "The music may have been a little loud but I was complying," Mr Rosby said. "I said, 'Sir, I want to make sure nobody's civil rights were being violated.' " Mr Rosby said he believed police were retaliating against him because of previous run-ins with local police. Mr Rosby has previous convictions for resisting arrest, battery and driving under the influence. Mr Rosby, who is black, said he has filed six complaints against the Hawthorne Police Department, alleging mistreatment and racial profiling. Hawthorne police Lt. Scott Swain said the shooting was in the interests of everyone's safety. "I know it's the dog's master, and more than likely not going to attack him, (but) we've got a guy handcuffed that's kind of defenseless. We have a duty to defend him, too," he said. Mr Rosby spent Sunday night in jail before being released. He says the police won't let him have his dog's body. police shoot dog dead Leon Rosby puts his dog in the car as police come to arrest him. Mr Rosby said he and Max were driving back from the dog park and the car trip was filled with Max affectionately licking Mr Rosby's neck. "All he did was love me," he said. The video went viral after being uploaded to Reddit and YouTube.

My very favourite photo of Luka Close second though :) Bose - very serious, dignified & zero sense of humour Macey - not so much Bryan - sort of wants to be a working dog but worries about the dark & loud noises

I've found similar - they don't need to be born in a paddock with their stock to develop into good workers - I think it was Espinay who pointed out that lots of rescues (who may never have been with stock) also achieve this. It is a pretty individual thing from dog to dog. Most of what I've learned about working LGDs has been through trial & error, as you receive a lot of conflicting advice. I made lots of mistakes with my 1st couple of dogs but we got there in the end - it's a big learning curve and so very different from training a dog for the showring, obedience or herding (which is all I'd ever done). What you say about finding the key to each puppy is so true (I also have a racist dog - he loathes red goats but loves his standard coloured ones :) ) - different strengths in individual dogs will help decide where they are best placed in a working situation. One of my boys is a brilliant "big paddock" dog - he patrols really efficiently, likes having lots of space & is quite forceful in his job. I have another girl who is just sheer magic with kidding does in a smaller lot - she's exceptionally gentle with the babies & knows before I do who is getting ready to birth. They will let you know what sort of a workload they are happy and comfortable with. I still get a kick out of watching them with their charges, they have favourites that they get attached to which is pretty cute & they will scold naughty ones. The way they coordinate when there is a threat is awesome - I have 3 boys that have worked together for a few years now & the teamwork is incredible, 1 drops back with the flock, the other 2 streak across the paddock - all it takes is that "danger" bark. In my experience, as pups you need to "set them up to succeed" & not put them in a position where things can really go wrong - so long as the instinct/ability is there, lots of opportunity, encouragement when they do well & some patience, is what will result in confident, dedicated working LGDs.

Sorry - I know it's OT but that is gold!

Lets play devils advicate for a minuite. tralee wants the heavy *Italian type* of dog to win in the ring. He also seems to want an OVER PROTECTIVE dog on his lead. Interesting combination this, in my mind. As a breeder, I want nice correct sound dogs with a ballanced outlook. I do hip, elbow, eye and thyriod testing on any I am dreaming of breeding with. If they pass then and only then I breed when it is going to fit in with the rest of my life. So far I have bred 4 litters and have been very happy with the resulting pups. I keep in touch with my poopie buyers and help if needed with advice. I happen to have an Italian dog (from lines that tralee admires so much) and while he is a fair size dog he is not the 80 kilo size range that some speak of. Far from it in fact. Having been to Italy and seen a few dogs while I was there I am not sure we are so far away from what the Italians are breeding. I am sure that for most of the year they have 3 or 4 times the amount of coat simply due to the weather. I think it is time to look at the dog UNDER all that hair really. All that said, for me personally it's all about ballance and working ability is a big part of that ballance. Now this is one of my last litter, Rusty is not only learning to be safe with our sheep but she is also learning to be a happy polite member of our little bit of the world. So what would the members here ike to see in their breeder? I like both Steve's & Zoiboy's thoughts and approach regarding the type of Maremma they are aiming to produce - I appreciate the understanding of balance and compromise.

You're quite right - the tone was not nice and for that, I do apologise. It was an uncalled for response to your dismissive attitude to others - just because their opinion differs from yours, does not mean they don't have something of value to contribute. Are you saying a dog that works well - performing the same function (sans bears/wolves but add in wild dogs/eagles) - in Australia, rather than Italy, is not "placed into its correct context"? Of course it is your perogative to prefer one type of dog over another - fairly certain nobody said you could not. It is not however, necessary to cast aspersions on the quality of Australian dogs, or the objectives and direction of their breeders whilst you do that. I also don't understand why you have enormous faith in the international showring to discern quality animals yet doubt the same process here. I do not agree that the Maremma in Australia has become, or is in danger of becoming, a "sub-breed" and I think it's very sad that you, as a breeder, do.

If you can't see the point when you look at those dogs then why are you in here? Do you have Maremmas, yourself ? I have Maremmas & I'm struggling to see your point - what, they should be bigger? more coat? cos that's all I see from the pics - nobody here has the chance to put hands on or observe these dogs Well, I see a lot more than that. Bigger yes, but also almond shaped eyes, excellent feathering on the legs and tail, smaller ears, absence of a snippy head, elimination of an undulating lip, and more. My point is very well reinforced by what the Italians are producing and have been producing for over a decade. "We have not kept pace with the Italians who are producing dogs that are, far and beyond, superior to our dogs. They win BIS at internationals for crissakes. On their day athey are the best dogs in the world." Best in the world at what? Turning up at a dog show? Superior, how exactly - do they work better than our dogs do? I (excuse the expression) don't give a fast one what you think the "Internationals" are doing & where they might be doing it (whatever "it" may be??) - I care that we have breeders, here in Australia, that are doing the very best they can to produce a sound, hardy working dog that truly represents the standard & is capable of doing what the breed originally, ought to do.

If you can't see the point when you look at those dogs then why are you in here? Do you have Maremmas, yourself ? I have Maremmas & I'm struggling to see your point - what, they should be bigger? more coat? cos that's all I see from the pics - nobody here has the chance to put hands on or observe these dogs

Wow - you know, I have seen a lot of Maremmas but until this thread, I have never seen one with a pink nose. I have seen one with pink eyerims (rescue puppy that arrived with a severe eye infection), I thought the infection had left scarring (her eyerims are patchy pink & black) as her nose, pads, nails & most of her skin is black but perhaps she would never have developed proper pigmentation anyway?

Genuine question - how does this photo display correct working temperament?

You're right - it has become a bit epic :)

Yep. I see an alarming number being bred and raised around here too. I'm not so concerned that some of the pups go to working situations, its the companion homes that make me cringe. And then how many are desexed. Hence the reason for this thread. The preservation and further development of the Maremma's conformation and temperament is a serious concern. I recently asked someone who own farmbred maremmas why they don't buy from a reg breeder and they are under the impression that show maremmas are not as tough as the farmbred ones and also people who are reg breeders of maremmas are few and far between and picky about who they sell to, so they may need 3 or 4 good maremmas yet be denied any. So there's a few reasons. I have some of both types - registered dogs & farmbred dogs and can see advantages in each. With a registered dog you have the line knowledge & some breeder support (this can vary a lot - some breeders simply don't have the livestock knowledge necessary to advise re working situations). Farmbred dogs (& I don't mean accidental, designer or pet breedings) are usually the product of dogs that have proven themselves to be assets to someone who is primarily a livestock breeder - they tend to be somewhat tougher, very physically sound & resilient, with minimal coat. Dogs that bite/chase stock, fight with other dogs, constantly seek to escape, fail to bond with stock or aren't healthy/sound/easy care simply do not get the chance to reproduce. As a groomer, that's one of the things I didn't get to see. They do exist :) & are an absolute joy to deal with compared to some of the huge fluffy, cottony pelts that are, I guess, more commonly seen

This - all of it but especially the bolded part. I love the fact that they can be a wonderful companion (I have one at my feet while I'm typing) but I depend upon their exceptional working ability.

I have 2 here that have that social, outgoing temperament & their main downfall is that they lack work ethic, they would far rather be socialising (with their humans) than working (with their flock). Asking because among stock people who use these dogs only as workers (& they are never likely to see a showring), it is accepted as truth that "the friendly dogs won't/don't work". In my admittedly limited experience this has been pretty well borne out - are they more the exception than the rule?

Thanks for posting those links zoiboy - I found them really interesting. Most of those dogs in the 2nd clip don't seem to be just tolerating showing, they are really enjoying it :)

and, in the show ring, just how many extra minutes do we allow a maremma to make up it's mind whether to allow a judge to examine it or not? And should the same courtesy be extended to other dogs/breeds? I don't think the time factor is the issue for some of the LGDs - it's more the approach & method of handling that makes a difference. When my Anatolian was non-awarded (as she would not be handled by the judge in the ring), the judge was a gentleman wearing a hat. He was very focused on the dog and had a brisk approach. That was enough for her - the hat, the long, intense stare, followed by a rapid approach. By the time he reached both hands out to touch either side of her head, she was positively bristling. He realised she was not happy, so moved her around before trying to approach again but she was not having any of it - I mouthed her for him & every time he went to move past her head she would turn to face him, she simply would not allow him to be where she could not see him. I'm not saying the judging was bad - he was a very nice bloke, gave her every chance to settle, then explained his decision & I agreed, he could not possibly award her if he could not touch her. This particular dog had been successfully shown prior to this & was again after (multi class in group wins including a RUBIG) - she was never thrilled to be handled but tolerated it reasonably most of the time. A judge doesn't need to give the LGD breeds more time - but there are a few things that can help make handling them much easier for both the judge & the dog (& some judges are very aware of these already): - approach the owner (rather than the dog) & a quick "hi, how are you going" before handling the dog goes a long way - be deliberate & confident with your handling, don't be nervous or rushed - please don't eyeball the dog - don't lean closely over the dog - if an LGD draws his head away from you, don't assume he is timid I agree that if you want to show, you have to play by the rules & the dog is going to have to tolerate being handled - if he won't, then showing is not something either of you are going to enjoy. Having said that, I think expecting them to have a friendly, welcoming attitude is unrealistic & not what the standard requires.

Good on you. I enjoy showing, my dogs are happy to go along with me. If they disliked it we would all retire to the couch. *nods whilst pushing Maremma, Anatolian & 2 cats to end of said couch* :laugh:

Then why show this breed? If a judge can't touch them, then how can they be judged? It's a hands on sport. How long should a Maremma be given in the ring to make up it's mind if it will allow another person to approach it? The Maremma wasn't the only dog to react in such a fashion, commentators also remarked on other dogs being overawed. Should this allowance be given to other breeds who also would prefer not to be examined by a stranger. Maybe Maremma's shouldn't be shown at all and should be left in the paddock to work? I didn't say don't show them - I simply pointed out the difference between attributes that assist the dog's function & attributes that are rewarded in the showring. Nor did I say they couldn't be touched - but that they would not welcome it. But if they are clearly unsuited to the current show format, and it seems they are, then why do people show them? Why do something that is against everything you say the dog (breed) stands for - so to speak? It would be so stressful for them. I guess people show them to be judged against their breed standard & to get points towards their CH title, maybe win a fringie - I dunno :) For mine, I no longer show much at all simply because, you're right, they don't like it - I judge my dogs purely on their willingness to work (work ethic if you like), ability to work (courage, judgement & independent decision making), their physical soundness, minimal coat care & their ease of getting along with me & mine. They are brilliant at what they are bred to do - I could care less about show results - but that's me