Sarah L

tmc the dog in my Avatar is my dog Douglas he is a bullmastif x great dane 9 years old now. Rescued at at 9months and has been with me ever since. He is the one dog in a million you get. I try to keep things as simple as possable especially for the average dog owner who can be easly confused.

tmc I think what you have said above explains what Vickie has been trying to say perfectly. Many years ago when I first started dog training I was told to help with the reinforcement then when the dog sits on its own for what ever reason you say sit, when the dog lies down on it own for whatever reason you say down ect ect..... I do believe conditioning a response with no outside reward or punishment is very possible. It just becomes matter of fact for the dog to respond with no great emotion shown by the owner either way in reward or punishment.

Hi rileymygsd, firstly can I say what beautiful dogs both of them are, your puppy looks so full of character I just love jrt's. As far as your toilet training problem the breeder gave you the answer large grassy pens that the pups could go to the toilet on when they wanted to. I think now your pup does not understand the time frame she has to do the toilet in. A great way to solve this is to bring the toilet indoors, what I mean is for you to get a receptical like a very large cat litter tray and put a slab of turf in it so it contains the grass and the dirt from outside. This way she has access both indoors and out to do the toilet that she can assosiate to. Once she is using the recepticle consistantly you can move it closer and closer to the door until she then only goes outside. This means that you do not have to spend hours at a time outside waiting and then keep having to go out every haif hour to take her to the toilet. It would still be a good idea to take her out sometimes during the evening so that she can still have assosiation to outside but this way she has something inside that resembles outside and they seek this out themselves. You can still use your toilet training commands inside with the receptical and outside aswell. This way just makes the whole process a lot quicker for the dog to become consistant in toilet training. Not forgetting to reward both inside and outside correct toilet behaviour.

Hi rhi & jack, I am not sure if this will work but try the sneeze part of the trick first, put jack in the sit and pretend to sneeze reward when she looks at you. Do this for 2 days. After this get an empty tissue box and sneeze then point to the box and reward for her putting her nose on the box. Straight away pretend to sneeze again to distract her from picking the box up and taking off with it. Do this for 2 days. After this put 1 tissue in the box sneeze then point to the box. Now you can say get it and the minute she gets the tissue out the box put the treat staright under her nose she lets go of the tissue and you reward straight away. Doing it in these steps helps her assosiate that the tissue is part of a new game and not for shredding. When you are fininshed you trick training sessions put the box and all access to tissues away and play another game with her. When she is used to dropping the tissue start to put in in other places and tell her to get it eg... your pocket with a bit of the tissue sticking out, pocking from from the edge of a drawer ect. each time you use the treat under her nose to reward her giving it up every time. Hope this helps you and best of luck. ;)

A good way to help your pup to get used to bathing is to start with a wet sponge and some treats. Use the wet sponge as if you are just pating your pup running it in the one diretion like you do with your hand. Run the sponge down the pups back and then reward with a treat if the pup does not shy away. Also let the pup smell the sponge first and reward it for smelling the sponge. Do this everyday for about 3 days , then try just squeezing the water gentle onto your dogs back rewarding the pup everytime. Once the pup will accept the water being squeezed from the sponge you can start increasing the water flow slowly from which ever you are going to use eg buckets or hose ect... take your time and the pup should end up enjoying being bathed the rewards make it a pleasent time and give a good assosiation to water. Hope this has been of help to best of luck. ;)

Totally agree with you Tony. There is no harm to starting all over again, infact it could improve the dogs behaviour so much better. KC Steve's video would help you alot.

Helen I also think targeting is great to. We did this when I did agility with my old girl since passed on in her younger days she did really well at it.

To answer your question PinacleDTS, I think that I just do it out of habit since crossing over using aversive methods, but I don't really see it an area that is all that important. Although it doesn't mean much to the dog in actually learning the exercise, it should help shorten the merging of voice only command with hand signal. Perhaps I am missing an important point? dogdude thanks for answering my question. The reason we shape the behaviour first without the voice is because our body languge speaks clearer to the dog. Rarely can we mere humans match our voice to our body language, voice says one thing body is doing something differant. It is also done this way because it avoids the old habit of people saying a command 3 or 4 times before the dog responds to it. It is also all about getting the dog to think and make the "self choice". When done with body languge first this does shorten the merging of voice and hand signal.

Busterlove great to see also that you still give the reward when the dog responds to your hand signal. I have also found that owners enjoy this way of training as it is less stressful on them than having to push and pull their dog around to get it to do things.

NaturallyWild thank you for your reply and explaining in detail the process you apply it with. Yes it is a good idea to remove the lure asap and you stated a valuable point of coming in with the other hand to give the reward this is how I was taught this method. I have seen and I think this is where it goes wrong is that people remove the food reward asap aswell and expect the dog to still respond. This leaves the dog confused and then the owner thinking the dog does it only for the food. After 2 or 3 consistant responses to the hand without food in it is when I add the word command. I never remove hand signals altogether as there are times, such as high winds/direction of the wind, crowded and noisy places where your voice may not be heard by the dog. I also teach people a couple of techniques early on but not to many as I have found it can confuse the owner and they end up mixing up the methods until the dog no longer know what to respond to. I also think that lure done right in the first place is then a great way to lead into targeting. I totally agree it is about getting the dog to make the "self choice" about the behaviour. The only answer I have not got from anyone yet is whether they only use the dogs daily quantity of food to train this way. Many I have seen try this method with extra food on top of what the dog gets daily and then say it does not work.

Dogdude thank you for your reply. Many dogs have a fear of human hands and lure training may not if used wrongly work for them. However even when this is the case there are ways using lure training even if it is not directly from the hand that can get dogs to begin to trust the training and then the hands. Yes all dogs have to eat, but some will starve themselves before taking food from a human hand. I always insist that a feed bowl still plays a part in the dogs life even when lure reward is being used. So this also makes the dog think "I will just wait for my bowl". So it is a good idea to drop the lure on the ground and the dog will then take it. I am using the drop the food on the ground on fear response dogs. You are exactly right in what you say that this methods goal is to make the dog think and not aimed at us making them comply to our commands but more want to comply to our instructions. Can I ask why you use a command when first introducing this way of training? I always use and teach people no words until the behaviour is shaped.

Hi all thank you for your replys. I would like to ask if when you are using lure training do you only use what the dog is fed or are the lures on top of what the dog gets on a daily basis? Also do you put the command word in straight away or wait till the behaviour is shaped? I do agree lure training is not for all dogs but I am trying to find out if it is because it is used in the wrong way. When I was taught this method I was taught that the dogs daily quantity of food was used only. Also no word commands until the behaviour is shaped. It was also shown to me that if the lure is taken away to early and transfered to voice and verbal reward then confusion in the dog arised. From the way I was origionally shown to the way I see it being used today it has been changed by about 5%. I am interested in how you apply the lure method and thanks for the posts on whether you use it or not. Edited for spelling not sure if I got them all

I am interested in finding out how many people use lure reward training. How you use it, why you use it and have you found it worked for you. I was taught this method a long time ago and found it to work very well for shaping dog behaviour in everyday life and especially for puppys. If used correctly I found behaviour shaping can happen very quickly and become consistant far quicker than forcing a dog to sit ect.... However I have seen to many times this method being used so wrongly that it is useless. I am interested in some responses first of how people think this method should be applied and how you have applied it before I give my response on how I have applied and used this method. To many times I hear that the dog is only doing it for the food this is very true if it has been used in the wrong way. Thanks in advance for your replys.

I absolutely do - i want to see a consitent pattern of behaviour (the way i want it) happening that i can almost 100% predict before i add the cue. This process isn't going to stop the comfusion though if you need to then make changes/corrections to the behaviour after (ie crooked sits that then need to be straightened). NaturallyWild, I am not sure how you train in the first place but I am guessing you may use lure reward amongst other things. When I was taught lure reward I was taught to use only the dogs quantity of food for that day, not liver treats and schmakos on top of a full diet, and that when using body language first to show the dog the desired behaviour then if for example the dog sat crooked on the first instance you did not reward it but ignored it and try again. On the second attempt the dog sat straight and you then reward. This was all done with no voice contact to the dog. I have seen this method used where by no matter what position the dog sat in the first time it was rewarded. When done this way it does not make the dog think but can make it offer certain behaviours just because it is confused about what exactly it is supposed to do. What I was taught was that by showing the dog the exact position then negated any need for changes/corrections later. I would like to hear more of your views on this type of training and how you go about using it. I feel that a lot of the time this method is used wrongly and people become hooked up on its only because of the food that the dog is doing it. Ok so now I am off topic so me thinks a new thread is about to start.

I am not sure if this is on topic or off topic but here goes. Does anyone train their dog first with body language then put the word it to suit the behaviour. A trainer taught me this a long time ago and I find it works a treat. What they told me was that there was no point putting the word in until the dog had learned the behaviour first. For the 5 basic words of command, heel,come,sit,stay,down then it was better to teach this with body language once the dog was responding to this then you put a word assosiation in. They told me it stops all confusion in the dog and also helps with bad timeing. Just interested if anyone else has tried this way of training.

Best of luck Falling Dawn, I am sure you will do well with Lucy, have fun ;)

Tony great thread I don't know if I can add much to it as I do not breed dogs, but I have a great book in hard back from 1945 showing differant working breeds of dogs and how to care for them and train them. Funny thing is I think their conformation of breed and temperment standards decribed is far better than todays standards as their is no messing around with fads or in fashion dogs.

Until someone invents a device that lets us talk to dogs in a language that we both understand, any attempt to "understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place" is just a guess. It may be an "educated guess," but it's still just a guess. Anyone who tells you any different is not being honest. Clickers are older than Ecollar, having been invented about 50 years ago. Ecollars were invented in the late 1960's, only about 40 years ago. Yes! To both questions. There will always bee the "newer is better" thinking among some people, It's human nature. It's not always right, but it's there for some folks. Just having the tools doesn't mean that people are capable of applying them. I think so. I know quite a few dogs whose lives have been saved by the Ecollar. Lou, many people can work out the reason for a dogs problem in the first place, take a dog that has been beaten throughout its life and then raise your hand and it shy's away are you saying we are only guessing it's has been because it was beaten. I know carrying tools does not mean that everyone is capable of applying them that is why I asked my origional question do we put to much emphasis on training tools. Lou if clickers are older than e collars why were you saying I posted reviews on e collars that were 50 years old if e collars have only been around for 40 years. Can you give a case of a clicker being used 50 years ago.

K9: I dont think I suggested that you said you advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets... But I cant see how it is any better playing with one dog or any dog? Other than the risk of being attacked is reduced... You still have a high value reward that you need to call your dog away from... K9: no need for defence... K9: how exactly do you manage to make yourself more fun, when you are the one expecting the pup to sit calmly, & the other just plays with no rules...? K9: Well thanks for the lesson in dog training, I will have to keep all that in mind... I wonder how many on this forum can even get a reliable recall, with any method... To suggest this will happen this easy is blue sky stuff.. K9: sure, read away... http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...=neutralisation I don't profess to train dogs over an internet forum, using the lure reward method proparly and not just stuffing food into a dog will work extremly well in achieving a very reliable recall especially from a pup, under any distraction, which your origional question to me was how do I socialise a pup with other dogs. If it is as you say that you wonder how many on this forum can even get a reliable recall with any method, does that mean your saying the tools methods don't work or just that if its not your way it won't work?

Cosmolo, were you trying to charge for this service of "pre puppy school classes", It is hard enough to get people to pay for training when they have a dog as it is. I also would not promote it as pre puppy school. What do you think of promoting it as "Know your dog before you get it" classes or "Learn about dogs before you get one" for want at the moment of better headings. I would also promote it as a community service so getting in touch with councils, vets and other trainers to formalise the class contents. I for one would be very happy to give up a couple of hours per week of my time for free to teach in the class, I can't speak for other trainers though. Dogs in pounds that have been truly desensitised to voice and a flat collar is the tip of the ice berg in a training assesment. Other things needed is approching the dog, touching the dog in sensative ares of it's body, noise reaction and other dog reaction to name but a few. I had the greatest of pleasure in catching up with Battersea Dogs Home crew when they came here a few years ago. An ex cournal from the Brittish Army had taken over the running of Battersea and boy! what a differance he made to the place he took it from a shabby old run down pound under a railway viaducted which was noisy and bark and damp and a misserable place for dogs to end up in and worked his ass off, often for free to make it a place that I now think is a excelent roll model for how pounds should be. Take a look at the web site www.batterseadogshome.com.uk. Trainers carrying tool boxes and ignoring everything else was not what I said. Maybe I did not explain myself properly. My origional question was do you think to much emphasis is put on the use of training tools. I also did not say they were a bad thing. What I wanted to establish was are training tool introduced to quickly before other simple methods would work just as well if done properly.

K9 I do want people to let their dogs play with other dogs, however I think you are either reading more into what I wrote and think that I advise people to let their dog play with any dog it meets. Or I did not explain it in idiot proof form. This is not the case. As I said the first thing I teach a pup is to sit and focus then to meet and greet in calm behaviour. Then when I have taught a solid recall and make it more fun for the pup to return to me under any distraction I would let if off lead to play with a dog it meets. A recall is very acheivable under these circumstances. So you see K9 there is no need to inflict all sorts of retraint/correction on something that has been trained properly in the first place. May I ask how you would socialise a pup to other dogs?

Why do people get puppies they can't train? IMO, lots of reasons. Because they pick a dog breed based on appearance, or based on misleading advice from a petshop or unethical breeder, and don't research the probable temperament of the dog. or because they have never owned a dog before, or never owned a "difficult" breed, so simply don't understand that most dogs actually do need ongoing training. or because they get a mixed breed dog from a shelter or BYB, and end up with a larger or more fiesty dog than they expected. In a perfect world, owner education could deal with the first problems perhaps, but not really the last ones. There will always be mixed breed pups that need adoption, and that end up being bigger or more energetic than the owner expects. And even purebred dogs sometimes end up with atypical temperament quirks that the owner or breeder didn't expect them to have. And accidents do happen. What if a person adopts a young large breed dog, and then suffers an accident or injury that made them less physically capable? And please don't forget us people who adopt adult dogs, and either intentionally or unintentionally end up having to deal with behaviour problems that we didn't create. ;) I am not forgetting people who adopt adult dogs, this is why all pounds should have a testing and training programe in place. I know this may be a difficult thing to achieve but people always using terms like (in a perfect world) to me is an excuse for "its all to difficult so lets not even try". Knowing all the reasons you do about why people get dogs, what if they have an accident, there will always be pups who grow up bigger and more fiisty than the owner expects ,then why not gear training classes towards teaching people these things before they get a dog. I am sure dog clubs could advertise a new class that people can go to before they get a dog a long with private trainers doing the same. You then advise people of the pit falls first, then teach them to train the proper dog for them. I think this would go along way to lowering the amount of dogs that need adoption in the first place. I know there will always be dogs needing adoption but lets stop shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted so to speak.

I don't think we need a perfect world to achieve this, just more trainers willing to set up (Before you get a dog class) for want of better words. I have been thinking of doing this latley, as I have been confined to bed recently with chronic bronchitis thinking is all I have been able to do. I would appreciate other trainers thoughts on this idea I have a question for you if I may? In relation to socialising a puppy with other dogs the first thing I teach the pup to do is sit and focus on me. The sit is a passive body language that other dogs can read. Often a pup pulling and gaging at the end of a lead to get to other dogs is not a good starting point. The sit and focus also gives me time to assess whether I will let the pup meet the dog in the first place. After this I ask the other dogs owner how friendly their dog is (bearing in mind you can't always trust what they say). So it helps a lot if you can read the other dogs body language. I also take into consideraton the size of the other dog, whether it is male/female ect.... I then let the other dog approach and let it sniff the pup and the pup to sniff the other dog. By this time the whole meet and greet has been done with calm behaviour from the pup. I then walk on with the pup and continue my walk. This I do from 16 weeks for a week or two until I have also taught a solid recall then after the meet and greet stage I can let the pup off lead to play with the other dog. Bearing in mind that 16 weeks is when you can walk your pup and it is protected with its vacinations. Before this age I would try and find other pups the same age to socialise the pup with but would still use the same way I have written above. This is also how I would teach a client to socialise a pup to other dogs under my guidance and teaching them about the other dogs body language. Any novice dog owners out there who will read this it is not a good idea to take what I have written and go and try it for yourself, unless you can read another dogs body language well.

This begs another question, why do people get dogs they cannot train properly from a pup? So in the end they have to inflict all sorts of training/correction/restraint on that dog for something they cannot handle/train properly in the first place. Should there be more emphasis on teaching people the proper dog to get in the first place rather than using so much restraint/correction later. There must still be enough available time to train dogs today if so many tools are being recommended in order to give a person confidence to handle a dog. Is there a better way to give an owner confidence and would this be through teaching knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than teaching knowledge and understanding of a tool?

Does anyone think that we place to much emphasis on training tools used for dog training? I am going to try and carefully word this so as not to leave any misunderstanding. So I hope all this makes sence. My personal thoughts are that we do put to much emphasis on dog training tools rather than gaining knowledge on how to understand the reason for the dogs problems in the first place, also then knowing how to fix the dogs problem through knowledge, not just grabbing a varied amount of tools and thinking that will fix the problem. Most of the clikers, haltis etc have only been introduced over the last 15 years, e collars have been around longer but not so widely used as in recent years. Have they really made any differance to dog behaviour over this time? Is there less dogs in pounds because these tool are now available? A plain old collar and lead these days seems to be the last thing people choose to train a dog with and if there is a new tool then suddenly it is far better than anything else available. Mechanics need tools because cars are made up of differant objects requiring to be replaced after a certain amount of use. Dogs do not have such parts needing replaced. I genuinely believe we need more trainers out there with knowledge and understanding of dogs rather than carrying a tool box with varied items in it thinking that is the soloution to a dogs problem. I have asked these questions because I have a genuine interest in finding out if all these tools avaiable today really make any differance to the problems people have with dog behaviour overall.