Maddy

Having done major change programmes in big organisations - both the 'slow excruciating tooth pulling' version and the 'short sharp, get in and get out, blood on the floor' version' i prefer the latter - while its bloody in the short term I think its less painful in the long term -

So are you saying that the short sharp version closed the organisations down completely or they went OS, or was it that the participants just had to change their culture, no compromises, so the industry could survive?

The latter m-j usually - it usually involves rapid down-sizing and sophisticated management of change and people - and that so ain't going to happen here. Management by attrition usually takes a long time, and while it works in some situations I doubt it will work here given the public and political pressure.

So yes - I have seen absolutely nothing here to suggest that genuine sustainainble change will happen so this industry will survive in a form that is acceptable to the general public. In fact this decision has probably ensured the slow 'death by a thousand cuts' for this industry, unless it happens again. And yes I'm certain it will all happen again and next time it will be a brutal shutdown.

Look the truth is that the days of using animals for gambling and entertainment are severely numbered - its only a matter of time given its a toxic mix that brings out the worst in human beings. So this industry can evolve to shutdown under its own control or have it done to it eventually. They can take their pick which route they take - but they are going to end up in the same place. Bookmark it.

Thank you for your reply. As I have said before you are probably right except it will be a pity for the good folk in the industry and they do exist and they have complained but it has fallen on deaf ears.

The entertainment and gambling factor of the industry are not to blame for this it is the "win at all cost" mentality. Unfortunately it isn't only in the greyhounds it is across the board in all sports, it is why human athletes get drug tested and are being found positive. Gone are the days when sport was just that sport, now it is business, pity. One example of this is country football/cricket they are paying players from other places to play for them so now the kids that don't make the grade instead of being at the footy or the cricket on Saturday they are entertaining themselves in other ways and not all of them are wholesome.

Generally m-j I think we are in agreement - I just don't believe so much in 'the good people' - not one public whistle blower I'm aware of in all the years of greyhound racing? But anyway, yes it is a pity that what might have been a good clean fun hobby has now become 'business' - and when it involves animals you can absolutely bet that greed will overrule any sense of animal welfare and decrease our collective humanity. I think this is why I'm so angry with this industry - as it not only reflects on them, it reflects on all of us. And I wonder if the huge outcry over greyhounds is because they are closer to us than, say horses. The are a companion animal species who live in our homes - and while some people have horses as well most of us don't. So it hits hard.

And yes absolutely agree - the moment sport becomes 'business' it moves to a different plane. I'm a great AFL supporter - and sooooo angry with Essendon for the disrepute that they have brought to the game through their 'whatever it takes' 'supplements' program. They are a case study for everything m_j talks about. I've seriously considered going back to supporting grass roots footie through the SANFL - and I might still. And no I won't be watching or betting on 'the race that stops the nation' either.

They are out there :) the vet that went onto the ABC show (there is a link at the beginning of this thread) is one example and look what it achieved, nothing. There are many people out there that could tell stories and some have but it got them nowhere. It seems that a certain few of the industry appear to have it sown up so this is why I was hoping legislation would sort it out. I'm not going to hold my breath though the GBOTA put reforms on the table I'm guessing to enhance their chance of keeping the industry and some of those reforms got taken off 3-4 days after the ban was lifted, which really peeved me, same ..... different day. I just hope when the next push to close it comes there will be more thought put into what is going to happen to the dogs.

Can you honestly say you were surprised by this?

I don't want to see the breed disappear through the complete banning of racing but it seems like the arrogance of those involved is just.. incredible. As soon as they believed they had won, it was back to business as usual. Apparently they'd already reformed enough and everything is fine. A greyhound trainer in Sydney was charged with live baiting the day before the ban was lifted but that's okay because reform, reviews, some paid "research", a liberal application of smoke and mirrors and.. everything is fine. The public can stop looking now, back to business.

Westimum, you never want to learn first hand what I know.

Most I know who learn that way are being treated for PTSD as a result. The reason so many are advocating for and calling for an ombudsman to be appointed for the only untouchable organisation in this country, the calls began in the 1990's as what you refer too began to morph but so far the govt is deaf as a doornail

What the RSPCA does or doesn't do, does not excuse the issues in the greyhound racing industry.

The RSPCA certainly have a lot to answer for but it's an entirely different issue. We can't say "Ah, but the RSPCA also kills dogs, so there!" because that is not even an argument, it's just distracting from some very real and very serious problems that must be addressed.

If you think the RSPCA is bad, you'd be horrified by some of the things I've seen or heard in the racing industry.

Maddy I'm so sorry. We've just lost one of our westies from our westie and rescue group to this insidious disease - she lasted 10 months but believe me while she was well managed it was no real life. RIP beautiful man,c say hi to Mac, he'll show you the ropes.

From what I've read, that sounds about right More of a prolonging time until death, than really giving them more life. In some ways, I'm sort of glad we didn't have to make that call because, to be honest, I don't think I could have done the right thing by him. It would have been too tempting to leave it "just a bit longer" because a little bit more time would never have been enough.

On a slightly different subject, the entire thing has made me wonder how many dogs are being misdiagnosed as just pancreatitis or side effects of medications. Bosley's xrays came back perfectly normal, the ultrasound showed just a slight kink at the start of his small intestine (from where cancer had spread to them) and all blood results pointed to pancreatitis. One of the younger vets at our regular clinic picked up an abnormal BGL/insulin ratio on one of the days but all subsequent BGL/insulin ratios after that were normal- apparently it waxes and wanes, so dogs tested during a wane in insulin levels will have normal BGL and it's just luck to pick up a spike. That, and the symptoms themselves are a bit vague, especially for dogs on certain medications.

Up until five days before his death, Bosley was still gobbling down food with much enthusiasm and looking to be in good (if slightly overindulged) health. I suppose that was part of the shock of it, that one day he was galloping around like an idiot, full of energy and life, and then a few days later, virtually at death's door. I asked the vet about why he deteriorated so quickly and got a bit of a vague answer about Bosley being in good condition. I know that dogs can be good at hiding pain but I guess I'd never realised to what incredible extent they can do it. The cancer had been there for many months (his first "pancreatitis" event was actually last year) but never any hint from him (the same dog who would get growly and upset if you wiped his feet with a damp facewasher, of course)

The inventor has done a load of research it seems - http://www.standard.net.au/story/740028/more-to-dog-food-than-cans/

He even applied for patents.

But if salt content is only 1%, and grains are listed after salt, that means they're saying that the product contains less than 1% grains. Which sounds like all sorts of bullshit when there are no other filler ingredients at all.

Also, if you take a look at the nutritional composition, it doesn't match the ingredient list at all. If your product was almost entirely meat, it'd be more than 23% protein. In fact, 23% sounds pretty unimpressive. As an example, ToTW is 32% protein and contains plenty of fillers.

Poor pug at the park yesterday had a tongue almost touching the ground. Just like that one I remember seeing ads for on Bondi Rescue that had to have surgery to put its tongue back in/together a few years ago. There's no way it would ever fit naturally. So I googled and it appears not an uncommon thing for pugs to have excessively long tongues?

Or a normal length tongue with an excessively short head to keep it in.

So sorry for your loss Maddy - I understand your heartbreak, I lost my boy in June to this and he too showed no symptoms. Your beautiful tribute to him shows how much you love him. May you Rest in Peace Bosley.

Such a horrible cancer Bosley was also epileptic so with his medication (pheno/bromide) perfectly masking the symptoms, we had no hope in hell of noticing anything wrong. Although as our vet pointed out, even if caught early enough to be treated with surgery, you can buy them another 12 months, at most.

How old was your boy? Our vet seemed very surprised that it was an insulinoma, given Bosley was only four. Typical of Bosley's luck, to end up with a cancer unusual in younger dogs :/

My italics. I keep saying that it is quite possible to breed Frenchies, Pekes, Pugs, Bulldogs, Bostons etc that don't have breathing problems and you keep saying that it is impossible - that it is inherent in their construction. Do I really have to list the flyball and agility champions etc to get this fact through? The truth is that popularity and careless breeding to cash in on popularity, plus that percentage of show breeders who do not put health first have exacerbated the potential potential problems which can occur with this popular head shape.

You are sounding like a person who is saying that if the head shape wasn't allowed, then the problem wouldn't occur, therefore disallow the head shape. I keep saying this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Should we change the GSD standard because of the high incidence of dysplasia? Should we change the standards of all the giant breeds because of their short life spans? Change the standards of long backed breeds because of their propensity to spinal injuries? Or does it make more sense to concentrate on breeding for good health within the standards? If you insist on changing standards, that is the road to eliminating individual breeds until you are left with no extreme anything, no different anything.

It is harder, but certainly not impossible to select for breeding stock which neither display nor produce offspring with extreme brachy syndrome and this is what should be happening. I suppose we could tackle it the same way we tackle dysplasia, heart problems, inherited eye problems etc etc. - although health testing for these things doesn't seem to be very popular outside of the ANKC. (which, remember is only a small percentage of puppies bred in Australia in any given year.)

Why not sort out a simple fitness test across the board and hit ALL the problems, (or as many as can be tested for in a breeding age adult) including extreme brachy syndrome, and make a pass a requirement before any puppies are permitted to be sold - by anyone? Whether you are a puppy farmer, a BYB, an ethical breeder or anything else, if your broodstock has heart problems, loose patellas, breathing problems or hip or elbow dysplasia etc etc etc - it will not pass the fitness test. Better minds than I can sort out carrier, severity and clear by parentage genetics for problems where full knowledge is available.

Yes it will cost breeders money to have their stock tested. Ethical breeders are already doing these tests and ensuring that health problems are not perpetuated. Perhaps this is a chance for them finally to be recognised for that.

Concentrating on extreme brachy syndrome won't necessarily cut down on the numbers of puppies being produced with colour dilution alopecia or hip displaysia. If something needs doing, let it be done across the board and not singling out any one group of breeders, or any one group of breeds - or any one health problem.

I can't figure out any other way to say these things. I am really just repeating myself, and won't comment further unless I have something different to add.

If it is physically possible to breed a pug that enjoys the same quality of life as something like a border collie, then the only other reason left is that many breeders (by Steve's information) are choosing to breed to extremes and ill health. To be honest, if it was my breed, I think I'd rather accept that changes needed making in the breed standard for the conformation, rather than it be an issue of the custodians of the breed doing the wrong thing :/

Having said that.. I'm still not really buying it, I guess. We know that when skull is dramatically shortened, certain structures are compromised, this is the nature of the head shape. I suppose it's a question of how much compromise can we agree is okay and at what point does it negatively impact not just on health but on overall welfare.

As for mandatory health/function/veterinary testing across all breeds.. I'd absolutely support that. Do I think standards should be changed in breeds prone to serious health issues or abnormally short lifespans? Absolutely. Isn't improving the dogs the entire point of breeding them? And by improve, I mean improve, not fitting in with whatever is currently fashionable. I would love to own a wolfhound but never will because breeding them for extreme size has seriously damaged life expectancy. I'd rather have a somewhat smaller wolfhound that lives to twelve years, than a horse-sized monster, who dies of crippling, agonising bone cancer sometime around its seventh birthday.

I'm not picking on brachy breeds, I think this stuff needs to be applied across the board because it's just common sense. Brachy breeds are just an obvious starting point because positive changes in those breeds will have very obvious benefits to the dogs and if more breeders can see the good that is possible from better practices, more breeders might be willing to actually change what they do.

Alternatively, everyone just keeps doing what they're doing and eventually, they will have their breeds lost to them by force when it is decided that if clubs can't prevent cruelty amongst their ranks, the government will simply shut them down. It really is simply a choice of being proactive or reactive.

What do you mean "thankfully gone at long last"? The muzzle and off leash laws for greyhounds in Victoria is still very much in place, the government has decided to further review it and there is, at this stage, no idea when or if they will decide to lift that legislation. The fact that independent "rescue" groups here refuse to obey the law and encourage others to do the same tends to blur the lines on what is fact.

And thank god for that. Laws concerning animals need to be based on science and our understanding of their behaviour, not on personal preferences of people who don't know enough about the breed but still claim to know what's best for the dogs.

I stand corrected. I hadn't realised that had not gone through. I know you think it is best because of the high prey drive of greys, but there are many dogs NOT greyhounds that have just as high a prey drive and there aren't any muzzle laws for them, unless they first demonstrate a problem. Not all greys are unsafe in public, whether or not they have undergone the GAP green collar program.

I don't understand why you think that it is fair for one high prey drive to be singled out, and others (plus greyhound crosses) to go scot free. And I do worry also that some public think the muzzles mean that the greys are human aggressive due to muzzles and there go some potential good homes. But this is not the right thread to discuss this I apologise for off topic.

The answer is quite simple, greyhounds are the fastest dog on the planet. I'm not talking about crosses I'm talking race bred greyhounds and when you are the custodian of the fastest dog on the planet with virtually no recall you have a responsibility to keep them safe first and foremost. That old chestnut about muzzles lessening the chances of greys finding homes just doesn't cut it anymore although the anti racing people still trot it out on a daily basis. Greyhounds are everywhere now and through the good work of places like GAPVIC, many people now know what the muzzle is intended for and has nothing to do with them being aggressive. It's simply the law and I, like Maddy, hope it stays in place because as she said people just simply do not know enough about the breed. They are adopting them because the media tells them (fuelled by those AR's you speak of)that they are hit on the head with hammers and thrown into shark infested waters on a daily basis. They are not your average dog and in the wrong hands can be a lethal weapon...I know this full well as I own one..... Maddie.

This.

They are an amazing breed and I couldn't think of any other breed that quite measures up to them but at the same time, I also understand their flaws and their traits. On my couch, Bosley was a gentle angel but with small dogs, I could never quite trust him. That didn't make him (or Hazy's Maddie) a bad dog, they are what they were bred to be- coursing dogs. The vast majority of greys are lovely dogs with moderate (for the breed) drive. But many people don't know or understand the drive or how to manage it. Part of the problem is rescues who refuse to acknowledge the drive, as if turning it into That Which Shall Not Be Named will somehow make it go away.

The topic is going somewhat off topic of brachy dogs but there are parallels- you have to acknowledge issues to be able to manage them. The dog world is full of this particular problem, with entire groups of people desperately trying to protect their breed/group by pretending nothing is wrong or it's all someone else's fault. I can totally understand the motivation- my greys have been my life and I feel incredibly passionate about them- but we have to stop and consider that maybe certain things have to change, going forward. As to what, exactly.. there are many possibilities. For show dogs, basic fitness tests, veterinary assessment and scoring, itroducing function tests (where applicable) and so on and so forth. Lots of possible fixes. Implement change and ANKC dogs will be healthier. If pedigreed dogs do trickle out of the system to backyard breeders and crossbreeders, at least those people will have healthier stock to start with. Seems like a win/win to me, for the people who love the dogs and for the dogs, themselves.

I wish this had all been a bad dream; that I'd wake up to see you standing in front of me, staring at me with your beautiful, dark eyes, wanting to know why I'm not up and getting you breakfast.

But you're gone. You floated away on a gentle methadone cloud, your body was still warm and soft but you weren't in it anymore. I would have given everything I had, to bring you home for just one more night, to sleep beside you and feel the rise and fall of your chest, just to have you with me. But you're gone.

You were so strong. You fought like the wild stallion you imagined yourself to be when you galloped in the front yard, fierce and unyielding. Your pain must have been terrible but you were brave. That insidious disease was eating away at you, where I couldn't see it, but you never cried out. Until the very end, you were stronger than I could ever hope to be.

You were my little moon, happily orbiting around my legs whenever I came home, eyes filled with unreserved excitement at seeing me again, even if I'd only gone out to check the mail. Those eyes made me love you even when you'd been a wewy bad dog- it was impossible not to look into them, soft and wide, and not be swept away with overwhelming love for you.

Things weren't always easy and in my heart, I knew I wouldn't have you for a long time but every moment I got with you was precious. From the day we first met, you- Roger, soon-to-be-Bosley, a dirty, flea-infested little pup- gently took a piece of my heart and kept it safely beside your own. I can still feel it there. It hurts so badly, I cry until I'm sure there can't be any more tears left in me, but there will always be more. I know time will soften the pain, that the ragged edges will heal but I will never be entirely whole again, without you.

Your pillow is on my bed now. It still smells like you and if I close my eyes, I can pretend that none of this happened. But when I open my eyes, your bed is empty. Kiff and Sally will be waiting at the bridge for you. Please don't annoy them too much. Run free, my precious, sweet boy. I love you.

Bosley

27/3/2012 - 26/10/2016

From the beginning, he was always a bit speshul

Those eyes

Always had to have a pillow

Shitty Whippet pillow

I don't think I will ever love another dog as much as I love Bosley :(

For anyone wondering, we initially thought it was pancreatitis (he'd had two minor bouts previously) but as it turns out, it was probably an insulinoma. By the time we actually saw any symptoms, it had spread through his abdomen and there was nothing that could be done to save him. The excellent vet we took him to gave him the best of chances and tried everything (on the diagnosis of pancreatitis) until finally deciding to open him up to see why nothing was helping. Having to agree to him being put to sleep while still under the anaesthetic was the hardest thing I've ever done. Even when it is my only choice, it was still a painful choice that felt like giving up on him.

I don't think I've cried so much in my life. Nothing is right at home, all his favourite places are empty. I know the pain will get better with time but it won't change the fact that he's gone. All of my future was planned to include him, my days were planned around his needs, he was so much of my life that suddenly, I have hours of silence to fill. The hole he has left behind is bigger than I could ever have known, and I don't think it will ever truly heal.

Maddy, please read my posts again. I am not denying that there is a problem. I am denying that changes to standards is the way to approach it.

I am saying that the problem will not be rectified by concentrating on ANKC breeders, and banning or barring entire breeds.

What I am trying to say, and obviously too clumsily to be understood, is that if your let the AR mob get their way and bar particular extremes then the precedent has been set to bar other extremes.

The end of that road is undifferentiated breeds. You can stick your head in the sand all you like and say "my breed is safe", no one can stop you - but don't complain later if you hear "I told you so".

The best breeders can achieve a brachy that fits the standard without health problems, just as the best breeders can do in every breed.

The answer to the problem is to ensure that ALL breeding stock, no matter what the breed or cross, passes fitness tests. Why would you find that a problem? Surely you feel that your breeds can pass with flying colours?

AR people have had success with the "divide them to fall" strategy (the PDE show proved that). Saying that all brachys suffer from extremes of brachy syndrome is akin to saying that all pitbulls are vicious and untrustworthy - the same principle applies. It is the individual fitness that should be the measuring stick and not generic typing.

You're still missing my point. The pug's extreme head shape causes it problems, the greyhound's extreme head shape benefits it because it occurred "naturally" (as in, was not selected for specifically) as a result of selecting for a certain function. No one wants pugs changed just because they look extreme. Looks have nothing to do with it. In fact, I think most people would agree that the squished faces of the brachy breeds are pretty cute. What is not cute is the resulting health problems. Claiming that it's all AR conspiracy to do away with purebred dogs doesn't help because it's ignoring that there are massive welfare issues that need to be addressed. The AR movement may well want dog ownership done away with but that doesn't change the fact that many brachy breeds suffer health issues as a result of form.

What do you mean "thankfully gone at long last"? The muzzle and off leash laws for greyhounds in Victoria is still very much in place, the government has decided to further review it and there is, at this stage, no idea when or if they will decide to lift that legislation. The fact that independent "rescue" groups here refuse to obey the law and encourage others to do the same tends to blur the lines on what is fact.

And thank god for that. Laws concerning animals need to be based on science and our understanding of their behaviour, not on personal preferences of people who don't know enough about the breed but still claim to know what's best for the dogs.

Are healthy, long-lived brachys the majority though? I don't think I've ever met a pug who didn't sound like it was struggling to breathe and the few BBs I've seen down here were sad little victims of their own horribly formed bodies, barely able to move any faster than a stilted waddle- although not that you'd want them to move any faster, in case they ran into something and poked out one of their bulging eyes.

It's easy to blame the problem on the "badly bred" but obviously, the badly bred includes many pedigree dogs, bred by people who should know better, but are apparently unwilling to change.

I think badly bred pet brachys are most likely in the majority since the crosses became fashionable and the pure bred but badly bred (yes, some pedigreed) frenchies, cavaliers, bulldogs, pekes, pugs, shih tzus and bostons etc etc. Their popularity as pets has led to this situation.

So this is a reason to bar them all? Do bear in mind that there are many brachy breeds that DO NOT have a majority of their members with extreme brachy syndrome - Do you associate Amstaffs with Brachy Syndrome for instance? And yet they are categorised as Brachycephalic. This is one example of tossing the baby with the bathwater.

I believe that all of the sighthounds are categorised as dolichocephalic, the other "extreme" in head shape. "Normal" head shape for a canine is categorised as mesocephalic. I believe that pointing the finger at a single head type is just a foot in the door, and I will resist ANY legislation that is breed-centered or type-centered.

It would make more sense to institute a fitness test for ANY dog or bitch of ANY breed or mix that must be passed before any puppies from them can be sold. Accidental litters where a fitness test has not been passed should be disallowed from sale, and the offspring handed over to rescue to rehome with full disclosure.

The difference is that dolichocephalic dogs don't suffer health issues associated with their skull shape. The only claimed health issue is periodontitis (and really just in greyhounds) but that is a result of racing diets being mostly soft and full of carbohydrates. If anything, their skull shape benefits them- huge, open nostrils to allow more air in to start with, long sinus cavity to cool blood and improve heat tolerance during extreme exertion, leading down to a very wide throat. They are the form they are because their function required it, and the result of that is dogs who are, generally speaking, very healthy. Pugs, on the other hand, were selected for facial features that obviously won't benefit the dog and especially not when bred to even further extremes.

Arguing that making changes to one extreme (and unhealthy) head shape is going to open the door to the changing of head shapes that don't impact the dog's health or welfare is really shooting yourself in the foot. As is trotting out limited examples of brachy breeds who don't have such extreme heads or (again) arguing that it's all the crossbred or backyard bred dogs.

However, who is mainly responsible isn't the real issue. Its an acceptance that there is a problem and making sure we are part of the solution and not refusing to accept our part it it - or it WILL be deemed cruel and unable to be fixed by breeders and the right to breed them will be removed.

And completely agree with what Steve says here. Complaining that it's someone else's fault might have worked ten years ago but things are changing and as greyhound breeders/trainers/owners in NSW found out, sweeping things under the rug is no longer an option.

I must admit after the smelly farts all evening I expected to get up to poop' but didn't , and their poo is still solid so it must just be me ????

I just wanted comformation it wasn't off .

It can be hard to tell that from colour/smell/texture alone. Some pathogenic bacteria don't cause bad smells or significant changes in texture (and some bacteria that cause spoilage aren't necessarily harmful). The only one that is obvious in large enough numbers in E. coli. Once it gets going, it smells like.. well.. sh*t. A slightly musty version thereof. Sort of like.. if you put some poo in a dirty sock and left it under a bed for several weeks. It also has a butyrous texture, so it's easy enough to identify if it is growing in colonies large enough to see. Sort of looks like tiny bits of slightly melty butter. Butter that smells like poo. Ruined butter for me

Another celebrity vet all set to push an agenda on Brachy breeds, there are brachy specialist vets that could have been approached but they may not have supported the agenda of the organisers.... grrrr.

Toss the baby out with the bathwater seems to be the AR platform. Badly bred brachy breeds can and do have problems - so lets get rid of them all, and then the short legged breeds and then the coated breeds and then the sighthounds and the giant breeds. And so it goes.Let us not fix the problem by encouraging health first in breeding programmes, let's ban anything that is not a Dingo.

And our commonwealth taxes are paying for this seminar!!!

But the sighthounds, as a group, are very healthy. I don't think you could honestly say the same of brachy breeds?

If your dog needs its nostrils widened and its soft palate trimmed just to be able to draw breath like a normal dog, I think you have a massive problem with conformation and the standard that isn't going to be fixed by telling people not to be idiots.

100% agree. Are you of the assumption that well bred brachys need nares and palate surgery before they can comfortably be walked around the block? This is not true. Only poorly bred ones do. It is as simple as that.

Long lived, problem free brachys do exist - although there are vets that will happily do nares and palate surgery where it is absolutely not needed. We can point to flyball and agilty champion brachys, but these will be thrown out with the bathwater if those behind the push get their way.

And don't for an instant assume that the animal rights people will not find an excuse against sighthounds - it will be something. Too much prey drive for recall training perhaps?? It is never safe to assume that your own breed is comfortably safe against AR driven legislation. Consider that historically, greyhounds had the earliest BSL in Victoria against them (thankfully gone at long last.)

Are healthy, long-lived brachys the majority though? I don't think I've ever met a pug who didn't sound like it was struggling to breathe and the few BBs I've seen down here were sad little victims of their own horribly formed bodies, barely able to move any faster than a stilted waddle- although not that you'd want them to move any faster, in case they ran into something and poked out one of their bulging eyes.

It's easy to blame the problem on the "badly bred" but obviously, the badly bred includes many pedigree dogs, bred by people who should know better, but are apparently unwilling to change.

Chicken mince for pets is probably going to be minced frames. Chicken offal is not really used because most of it is too small to add much bulk, compared to what it could be sold for, for human consumption. The mince colour/texture itself can vary by type of chicken used (meat chickens compared to ex layers) and I've found that layer chicken is usually lean and very sticky unless it's been minced/refrozen/reminced. The darker colour can also be from minced cartilage from the keel bone.

It's also possible that previously, it was just minced offcuts of chicken meat and it's now minced frame in full.

I'd probably keep feeding it unless it actually seemed to be causing stomach upsets.

Another celebrity vet all set to push an agenda on Brachy breeds, there are brachy specialist vets that could have been approached but they may not have supported the agenda of the organisers.... grrrr.

Toss the baby out with the bathwater seems to be the AR platform. Badly bred brachy breeds can and do have problems - so lets get rid of them all, and then the short legged breeds and then the coated breeds and then the sighthounds and the giant breeds. And so it goes.Let us not fix the problem by encouraging health first in breeding programmes, let's ban anything that is not a Dingo.

And our commonwealth taxes are paying for this seminar!!!

But the sighthounds, as a group, are very healthy. I don't think you could honestly say the same of brachy breeds?

If your dog needs its nostrils widened and its soft palate trimmed just to be able to draw breath like a normal dog, I think you have a massive problem with conformation and the standard that isn't going to be fixed by telling people not to be idiots.

Eta: and I'm still waiting for a reasonable answer why we classify cropping of ears and docking of tails as animal cruelty, but at the same time we have no scruple to justify cutting a dog's ball off or remove the uterus following our desire for more convenience. We even accept it as a measure to manipulate the hormones to gain an advantage in a sporting competition like agility - and at the same time people wonder about the dodgy trainings methods adopted by some parts of the greyhound industry.

Can't you honestly not understand how thoroughly wrong and idiotic this example is? Desexing a dog is not at all like strapping a live animal to a lure arm and allowing dogs to tear it to pieces. It also cannot be compared with doping dogs with amphetamines to the point of heart failure. Singling out the tiny minority of people who desex for "performance" reasons is absurd in itself; pretending that desexing is somehow analogous to serious animal cruelty demonstrates exactly how little you actually understand. The vast majority desex in an attempt to be responsible owners. They are not lazy, they are not stupid, they are trying to do the right thing. Climb down off your more-natural-than-thou high horse (which apparently eats kibble when convenient to you) and go back to collecting roadkill or something.

If someone is struggling, and desexing means that they will keep and perservere with their pet instead of getting frustrated and giving them up to a shelter or rehoming them, then I see that as a good thing.

WOW!

The dog doesn't care if it is desexed or not.

do you think the Greyhounds care if they are doped or not?

Eta: ...or do dogs care if they are docked?...do they care if they are euthanized?...

This is close to the most profoundly stupid thing I've read from you recently Keep up the good work.

Thanks everyone. I'm sure we will find the perfect dog soon. I've looked on the available adult dogs on this site but there are none in my state and we don't feel comfortable with purchasing an adult dog without meeting it. But I'm really hopeful the right dog will come up soon. I've spoken to some breeders and may even check out some shows/club/events.

I think you've done the most sensible thing for your family, even if it was really difficult.

I know you said you didn't want a tiny puppy but what about the 4 month old girl in WA? She looks pretty cute..

Maddy, while I understand where you're coming from, previous owners of surrender rescue dogs can make your life miserable regardless of how well you manage the surrender as I demonstrated in a previous post. And I still think these people are behaving dreadfully and hurting Remi's family and making them pay for their mistake. And the fact that the dogs welfare is not even registering in their thinking supports this view IMO. I don't think it should work like this, nor should mature adults behave like this. But happy to agree to disagree.

But I understand if Remi decides to give the dog back. If you decide to do this, take careful note of whether they come prepared to pay you your money back. If not them don't give them the dog and tell them to come back with your cash.

Anyway, if you do give the dog back, I'm sure people here will help you find the perfect dog for your family.

That is an assumption that has been made here. It's easy to judge these people and their motivations but I think it's going to be very one-sided because we only get one side of the story. We don't know the details of the previous owners' situation and by the new owner's admission, the dog was obviously cared for. I just don't think any of us has enough information to base the decision on the dog's welfare and what that leaves is the people. And to me, that's a very easy one: far less stress, hassle and potential heartbreak in just getting a young dog from a breeder

As for issues with previous owners and surrenders.. I've never had any issues with dogs surrendered from pet homes. Owners sign a surrender form when they drop the dog off and with that, they sign away any rights to contact with the dog, end of story. They can hassle me if they want to (although none ever has) but the new owner will never have to deal with it.

Great post CnR - I agree. I personally think they are behaving abominably. I take Maddy's point about the negative associations - but that comes with rescue dogs too and as a dog integrates into your family those feelings will recede into the distance.

How? The previous owners of most rescue dogs aren't making the new owners miserable by trying to get their dogs back. I'm not sure what you thought I meant there but I think you've misinterpreted it completely- knowing that if they kept the dog, they'd be causing emotional distress to others, the fact that keeping the dog will come with conflict (and the associated stress) that will forever be part of their associations with the dog, the stress/fear that the dog will be stolen back, etc, etc.

Personally, I'd just give the dog back. I couldn't live with a dog that already had so many negative associations attached to it and given the dog's future welfare with the original owners is all just speculation (which you're probably not being entirely objective about, given the emotional stake you have in the issue*), I don't think there's any real reason to fight it out. Give the dog back, get one that doesn't come with a heap of baggage and stress, save yourself a lot of trouble.

As an aside.. seems to be plenty of mature GSDs listed here and they're not exactly a rare breed so finding another shouldn't be that hard.

*Not trying to be mean here, but I think it's almost impossible to look objectively and carefully at a situation when you're already so emotionally invested.

ALL OF THE SIGHTHOUNDS

I can only think of one breed of sighthound that I wouldn't want to own (Afghans) and that's more of a crazy grooming requirements issue than anything else.

Unfortunately for me, the Shitty Whippet has turned the OH into a crazy whippet man and now he doesn't have much interest in looking at new breeds.

I'd sell a kidney for a borzoi but him.. "Meh, they're ugly as teenagers. Shitty Whippet was never ugly, she's the prettiest princess ever and who wuvs hers? Daddys wuvs her! Yes he does, who's the perfect dog and we don't need any big, ugly dogs? No we don'ts!" *Proceeds to feed the Shitty Whippet food from his mouth like a mother bird*

A few weeks' ago, he made a comment about how he and the Shitty Whippet were going to run away together but didn't in the end because they couldn't agree on where to go. I assume he was joking but the Shitty Whippet has a way with people so you just never know. Either way, I suspect next dog will be another whippet.

My wants in a whippet are pretty similar to K's. I was a proper sized whippet (not a 20+ kg monster), slinky and curvy, with plenty of prey drive and a sensible temperament. Colour bothers me not quite as much, as long as it's not brindle. Or almost entirely white. A fawn with a little bit of white trim would do nicely. Bonus points if it has a heavy mask, because they look cute.

I just realised you mean me. We seem to have the same taste in whippets. I'm a bit more lenient with colour than I wrote there, I dont mind some white but I'm sick of seeing brindles, even though I have 2 of my own. I just miss seeing those graceful curvy little whippets. Now when I go to a show, which is rare, I sometimes take a glance at the whippets and immediately lose interest. Great long exaggerated necks like a horse, and those hind legs stretched waaaaaaay out behind them. The make me think of those dragster cars with the weird extension out the back of them. I think now too if they ever concentrate on breeding for temperament they breed to be outgoing and friendly, I assume to make them good pets, which makes sense I suppose, but I love the aloof whippets who love their person and will be friendly to people they know but turn their noses up at strangers. I suppose they were originally bred to be aloof so if a bloke was out poaching his whippet wouldn't go gushing up to the landowner.

Sorry, was too lazy to scroll back up and see how you spelled your name :p

But yeah, the pretty little whips you see in old photos- small enough to scrunch up and hide under your overcoat when you see the landowner coming, sweet-natured and not nervy but disinterested in strangers. You still see some greys with a temperament like that but they're disappearing in favour of the overfriendly, slightly.. rude(?) dogs who seem more like a labrador in temperament than a sighthound. (no offense lab people, it's a nice temperament in the right breed!)

I think prey drive really matters because at the end of the day, it's one of the traits that make a sighthound, a sighthound. I also don't buy into the argument that if you get the form right, function will follow. That's not how breeds were developed and it makes no sense to me to "improve" the breed by attempting to work backwards. If function favoured a trait, many generations of selecting successful hunters would have gotten us those traits. Instead, trait are being changed to favour an opinion of how something should be. Almost like someone saying.. "Well, I'm sure zebra stripes are camouflage but I can't see how they'd work so I think we should paint all zebras yellowish brown because dry grass is that colour and they'd blend in better", ignoring the fact that those silly stripes have been working perfectly well for a very long time and if function favoured zebras of other colours, they'd be the ones around.

Probably should've zipped up the ol' flamesuit before saying the above but it's what I believe. I know there are a few Doler whippet breeders who do actually test their dogs' function through lure coursing (which is a very good thing) but that focus on function does not seem to be the focus of the majority.

The more you think about the subjective judging of a dog against a loosely worded (and at times, very ambiguous) standard to determine quality, the odder the concept seems. I can see how it might have had value in weeding out the true aberrations in form (the whippet with eight legs, or no teeth or huge, bulbous eyes) but once you have a fairly homogeneous population, it starts to become more about personal taste than any sort of science.

Anyways, before this turns into a flame war.. yeah, probably the same tastes.

Exactly sparkycat. Goofy maybe, but never ugly!

very very goofy :laugh:

It's okay, you don't have to sell me on borzoi. In fact, I'd probably throw in a lung, too. Got two of them anyway :p

ALL OF THE SIGHTHOUNDS

I can only think of one breed of sighthound that I wouldn't want to own (Afghans) and that's more of a crazy grooming requirements issue than anything else.

Unfortunately for me, the Shitty Whippet has turned the OH into a crazy whippet man and now he doesn't have much interest in looking at new breeds.

I'd sell a kidney for a borzoi but him.. "Meh, they're ugly as teenagers. Shitty Whippet was never ugly, she's the prettiest princess ever and who wuvs hers? Daddys wuvs her! Yes he does, who's the perfect dog and we don't need any big, ugly dogs? No we don'ts!" *Proceeds to feed the Shitty Whippet food from his mouth like a mother bird*

A few weeks' ago, he made a comment about how he and the Shitty Whippet were going to run away together but didn't in the end because they couldn't agree on where to go. I assume he was joking but the Shitty Whippet has a way with people so you just never know. Either way, I suspect next dog will be another whippet.

My wants in a whippet are pretty similar to K's. I was a proper sized whippet (not a 20+ kg monster), slinky and curvy, with plenty of prey drive and a sensible temperament. Colour bothers me not quite as much, as long as it's not brindle. Or almost entirely white. A fawn with a little bit of white trim would do nicely. Bonus points if it has a heavy mask, because they look cute.

I sympathize with BBB's attitude. It is a bit like racism in the dog world. The police are careful how they describe 'the wanted' and in the same way we should be careful how we describe dogs wanted for a crime. Perhaps the papers should just say they were medium sized brindle dogs of chunky build.

Oh, please.

Naming a breed for the closest possible match that people would be familiar with is nothing at all like racism. Nobody is calling a staffy, a staffy, because they hate staffies. It looks to someone like a staffy so that's what they call it.

My point was that you can't 'clearly see' that despite what you may think. We don't do dodgy DIY DNA tests, we have it done by a vet at a cost of $600 per animal.

What a mind-bloggling and pointless waste of money for a rescue. "Waa, don't discriminate against our breeds. Our dog isn't an X, it's a Y, and we have the dodgy vet DNA test to prove it!"

I'm surprised that you can't see the issue with the DNA testing you do- given it's encouraging the same breed discrimination that you're claiming to be against.