Steve

Well there goes that idea ! Worth a try though My 2 little corgi girls are fit and healthy as well They look like little wombats. Really cute. Oxcytocin is produced natuarally by the body and is usually stimulated when the labour starts,the little guys start to suck and when she licks them clean but even though this is exactly whats in the injection there are side effects because of the size of the dose and rapidity that its administer.Natural oxcytocin comes in slowly but the injection brings the milk in with a bang. [ 16-11-2002, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Steve ]

Ive been poking around and come across some info on oxytocin How it reacts with the natural assimilation and production of arginine [even though it has arginine in it] and the possibility that the hormone may deplete and clean out the colostrum from the bitch milk too quickly for the pups to get enough in . So the next question is. Did everyone that has had stiff pups use oxcytocin?

Jed This sucks Im sorry to hear that your cav baby went out this way as well. My two pups that are left in the litter are extremely healthy and thriving Still in the loungeroom as Im too frightened to take my eyes off them although Im pretty confident that whatever the hell is going on has missed these two. I suffered a bit over the decision to dock their tails as I didnt want anything to stress them but the way I do the tails with a band they dont even say ouch so I went ahead. Val Did the people who healped you with your litter have any problems with stiffness? Or was this something different. What bothers me most is that Ive been breeding dogs for a very long time and Ive watched probably hundreds of litters being whelped and reared both mine and other peoples and Ive never ever seen this thing happen before.Members of my family have bred corgis for more than 60 years many of whom were related to this bitch and they have never encountered it either. Im not sure what the questions are to ask about this just yet, but Jed has been around awhile and I would describe her as an experienced breeder so why does she see this condition around the same time as I do and several other people do and never before either? Different breeds in different environments with the same symptoms This is certainly a very strange thing.Im not finished with it yet. When I get a minute in my crazy life Im going to attempt to put together a questionaire for anyone who has experienced this to fill in so we can have a go at coming at it from another angle. No my stiff puppies werent sickly at birth , for the first 2 days I could see no difference between them and the others.

bell Ive had stiff pups make it through in this bitches prior litters but this time they just didnt make it.

Alright Here is the update. Nothing worked! I got three stiff pups all of which have now died. 2 have been perfect and healthy and very robust all the way through. So I can tell you what its not. Its not hypothermia as my vet suggested. They were warm all the way through with normal temperatures. Its not bacterial, its not a parasite problem, I injected them with the glucose fluid just as was suggested and it made no difference and Im certain its not hypoglycemia.They were treated as if they had this problem and it made no difference at all. Its not a problem passed onto the bitch by the male, its not contageous. Blood tests so far are inconclusive and show nothing out of the ordinary. Its not caused by chemicals,toxins, vaccinations, worming meds etc. Its not a vitamin, mineral, amino acid, enzyme deficiency. I have to admit its been a bit stressful and Ill never get used to watching puppies fade away and the feeling of helplessness that comes with it. My beautiful Corgi lady did all she could and she's a wonderful Mum but this is without a doubt her last litter and she can spend the rest of her days around here just gooffing off because Id never intentionally do this to myself ever again.None of her offspring will go out for breeding in case its something that can be passed on. My advise to anyone that has had a bitch have puppies that have had this condition is to take them out of the breeding program. Ill let you know when the final blood tests are in.

Thanks for that Ill ask about it.

Ive seen this done with a saline solution or ringers solution but didnt know anything about the glucose solution. What's the mix ?

Basically you use the brandy for puppies and dogs the same way you do for people to warm them up from the inside and to treat shock.It also relaxes them the same as it does with people who are trembling uncontrollably.My vet put me onto this about 20 years ago when I had a dog with a C section who didnt handle the op very well as her uterus had ruptured.Just a drop or two with a puppy can give remarkable results .

Cowanbree Go slowly tell me about the glucose injection How to prepare it etc.

They got jabbed with an amino acid/ vitamin shot in case it was an arginine thing It also has calcium in it.They were also given a glucose/probiotic mix just after they were born to counteract the antibiotic shot I gave Mum 5 days ago and to try to prevent hypoglycemia. They are in the loungeroom in a covered whelping box to prevent draughts with heater bags. I tried to cover the hypoglycemia, hypothermia, calcium, arginine,EColi, staph, strep,and any other bacteria,fungi, parasites etc.Ive also updated my stethescope and my microscope. Ive always got the brandy ready and Ive seen it work miracles but not on my stiffies. I forgot to mention Ive also been supplimenting Mum with vitamin e as I was interested in the similarity to a desease lambs get if the ewes are fed on silage which is deficient in Vit E . A lot of my meat is fed after its been frozen and freezing kills off vitamin E Cant over dose on it so she got that with her raspberry leaf, folic acid and vitamins which are recommended for pregnant women.

Well its all over for now We have 5 beautiful red and white babies. They have been jabbed and fed and warmed and so far all are wriggly and lively , feeding well and no sign of a problem.The next week or so will tell the story but so far it was a very easy delivery and all is well.Ill give progress reports.Thanks for all the well wishes.

O.K. This is it we're in labour! 2 puppies so far.

O.K. This is nearly it. My little stiff puppy bitch is due to whelp in the next couple of weeks and although I was a bit cocky back when I mated her I have to admit Ive a little sweat on my face now Im getting close. Ive set up a sterile area where Ill put her from the time she has about 5 days to go.Im supplimenting her diet with amino acids with an extra bit of Arginine, and she is also having extra folic acid and now raspberry leaf tabs.Ive an anti biotic shot to give her a week before the delivery date to cover any Ecoli, strep or staph bacteria and Ill give her probiotics.The shot works for 5 days so gives the puppies time to develop good flora again in their gut before they are born.Ive got a dextrose solution to cover hyperglycemia,and an injectable fluid for the puppies to give them calcium and amino acids in case its an arginine and or calcium thing.All kinds of things to make sure she and the puppies are warm and protected from draughts to protect against hypothermia. Ive also got everything I need in case I get a stiffie and I need to draw blood.So thats bacteria, calcium, arginine, hypoglycemia,hypothermia all covered. Can anyone think of anything Ive missed?

Do you think its reasonable to say that the one thing all of these puppies have had in common was being hand fed? If so what product where you all feeding?

Wunderhoo, Please dont stop, we like your posts just the way they are. They are easy to understand and Im sure if you try to summarise them we'd miss something.I love the science you teach me.

Jim I agree I never have nor would I ever give calcium supps prior to whelping. Matter of fact there's warnings all over the place that this causes problems for the bitch.

First of all Jed, if there is E Coli present in newborn pups thats no marker for a dirty environment. E Coli can infect the bitch at any time especially when her vagina is vlnerable like when she's on heat and it can also be in the male dogs penis E Coli is everywhere in the environment and yes it can be caused by someone not cleaning up their kennels but it can also be caused by other means. Its possible for the pups to infected with E coli while they are still in the womb or during birth.Even in a clean environment throughout the mating, pregnancy and whelping its almost impossible to stop as it can even be blown in on the wind. Ive been awake all night nutting through this and I dont believe that this is the cause of what was wrong with my pups There is about a hundred reasons for this all running around in my head but the main one is that usual symptoms of fading puppy regardless of the cause is runny poos especially if its E. Coli These puppies are born perfectly healthy and at least in my case they are whelped easily with no assistance etc. They appear to thrive and then comes the stiff puppy thing. Even in Jed's autopsy report the comment is that the dog is well nourished. So if its bacterial, viral, or Ecoli etc how come ?. Ive seen many fading puppies in my time and by the time they die Id hardly call them well nourished .I think once they get sick it would alow any naturally occuring bacteria to take over but first symproms is not runny poos. Ive been through each thing noted by the vet and I only thing I can find that suggests that this condition is symptomatic or even a side effect of one of these things is the citrullinemia Thus an inability to metabolise Arginine Im not happy with hypoglycemia, or hypothermia either. Ive read numerous articles and the description of the symptoms of these doesnt for me anyway describe what I saw. All the puppies have been perfectly formed with no deformities which has also been verified by Jed's autopsy. Im also not convinced that this is a calcium deficiency even though we have one example that responded to injections of calcium.Calcium injections usually have amino acids as well. Im having a look at stiff lamb disease which is where the lambs become stiff and eventually die from inhalation pneumonia caused by weak muscles but first symptoms are stiffness. This is caused by feeding old hay etc to the ewe which is deficient in vitamin E Selenium and manganese. Treatment is to give these suppliments to the ewe for the last third of her pregnancy . This is just something Im looking at for now and it may not be anything but there are so many questions unanswered here for me. The juvenile cataracts and the correlation with Arginine deficiency in a pup that also had stiff episodes and lived and my basic philosophy that most things can be traced back to something either lacking, or oversupplied or not storing effectively whether it is caused by genetic, dietary or environmental base has me intrigued. Like Jed I think there is a fair chance that we might never really know the answer but I just love a challenge. Val I wouldnt worry one little bit about your whelpings Whatever it is thats going on here is obviously very rare and I still believe that the best protection for any problems is to just maintain a balanced healthy diet. I think that for whatever reason the bitches involved in what ever we have here are for some reason prone to this or how else do we explain that I have a reasonable amount of bitches here but only one ever shows the problem. Jed only has one bitch and the lady I spoke with that lost 20 puppies had two bitches but they were littermates. You've done a fine job for a long time at putting healthy puppies on the ground and I wouldnt let anything about these stiff puppies change what you already do. I would suggest that you grab some amino acid powder and if you need to suppliment add a pinch to the mix.Not because I think you are in danger of getting stiff puppies but because we know that commercial puppy milk is deficient in these and they are necessary for the immune system.A good strong immune system will fight anything off and the healthier the bitch and the cleaner the environment and the less stress the better. I also believe that there is fair justification for putting a little probiotic into the pup just after birth to counteract any of the bad bacteria. Not probiotic found in yoghurt but in powder form from a health food store. Now Ill problably be really sorry for this but as I said I like a challenge my corgi girl who has the stiff puppy thing is pregnant. I had decided never to mate her again but think of what I might learn I couldnt resist. Puppies due end of October and Im keeping the best records ever from now on. Jim. This type of hernia causes the abdominal organs to protrude through into the diaphram or thoracic cavity. Makes it impossible for them to absorb nourishment etc. [ 21-09-2002, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Steve ]

Thanks for that Jed It just gets more interesting. I cant imagine why one bitch would be deficient in calcium and no others and when I think of the symptoms associated with calcium problems its hard to see that this was a problem that the bitch had. But if it worked its a better result than any of us have had so far I wonder whether the fluid was an amino acid base.I just dont get why it would show as this and not eclampsia or any other of the usual calcium probs. Ill go away and think on this. But I would like to know what else was in that injection.

I got a phone call tonight from a boxer breeder looking to buy one of my puppies for breeding and we were chatting away when she told me of a terrible problem she had with her last litters and she lost 20 puppies [ 10 in each litter]and the symptoms were the same as ours. Stiff as boards , then back to life and over about a week they all died. Her vet didnt know what it was either and suggested a virus.

Jed, I thought it might be the Mum only because Ive only ever seen this in 2 different litters with one Mum but like you she has had a litter with no problems and the majority of her pups have not gone stiff either unless they did when I wasnt looking.Your experience has only happened with one bitch as well so one way or another your boxer bitch and my corgi bitch must have something in common. Like you I couldnt think of anything that was different and ours was different sires as well. Based on the fact that we've had reports of this from people with all different breeds it sure is curious. Im considering now giving my little Mum another litter but like you I still feel there's some gaps in here somewhere.I took her out of my breeding program because I didnt want to breed what ever the problem might be in to future generations but it doesnt appear that what ever this is runs in families.If ever I see it again Ill do the blood pulling , no problem.

Jim said Yes, after the initial loose lethargic rag doll type of behaviour comes like a muscle spasm. Head thrown back, legs out stiff, eyes rolled back. Is this what you're all describing with your stiffys? No Jim thats not the way I would describe what Im talking about.There was no initial loose ragdoll type behaviour. The pups appear to be thriving and perfectly healthy one minute and to all intents and purposes dead as, the next. No head thrown back no eyes rolled back but then mine were too little at first to have their eyes open. I had one pup that did this 3 or 4 times over about 10 days Its kind of like they just freeze in the position they are in there is no twitching or spasming as such. Its like they have been literally turned to stone in the blink of an eye.No head thrown back just the way it was before the stiffness occurred. When they just instantly come back to life they sem to be O.K. most do deteriorate after that though. Also there is no heart beat when they are like this. Ive been talking to my husband about this and he reminded me that we did have 2 others that lived. These didnt appear to be different to the others at 8 weeks.They are 4 years old now and live happy healthy lives. I wasnt happy with the diagnosis of hypothermia and Im not satisfied with the hyperglycemia either. In 32 years Ive only ever seen one bitches puppies do this and like Jed it was more than one litter. Obviously its something to do with the mums and Im having a hard time understanding how this could be something to do with the pups feeding as they all appeared plump and in no way dehydrated. Sure some of these puppies did get sickly and most died but they didnt have any symptoms of sickliness with they turned into instant statues.I took the bitch out of my breeding program as I wasnt sure it wasnt genetic but she is still here and very lively and healthy , hasnt been even off colour a day in her life. Nor have any of her offspring her Mum or her dad.Until Jed posted I thought I was the only one that had ever witnessed this but its pretty apparent that its more common than any of us thought. Problem is if the vets are just guessing and the PM is inconclusive and there is no evidence to point toward one thing or another, without bloodtests on a live puppy at the time its going to be a hard ask to be sure one way or the other.

Jed Sorry to hear about your white baby but Id love to know the answer to our riddle so keep us posted on the PM

Funny to describe what I saw as a seizure I would go for . Hard as a rock, stone dead, stiff as a brick, but considering they came back to life it must have been some kind of something like a fit. Ive whelped a hell of a lot of puppies and only ever seen this twice both with the same bitch.I know its horrid that you are in the middle of it but comforting to know I didnt imagine it when it happened to me. Im sure when I described it the vet thought I was exaggerating. Hell I thought I might have been myself!It truly up there with one of the most amazing things Ive ever seen.

Jed My pups were showing no signs of pneumonia. Matter of fact they were showing no signs of anything except rigor mortis. And even then they were stiffer than a usually dead puppy even one thats been dead a while. Then Id smack them around and they'd come back.Like you I was asking how come this litter and no others I went with the vets word only because I couldnt find anything else and it made me feel I could do things to try to stop it ever happening again. I did climb into the whelping box and sit for a while and I felt cold as well because of the moving air that the heater was sucking in so now each litter I have I go after the drafts and hope thats the answer but there's still that doubt.

Jed I too had this happen in 2 of my litters a couple of years ago. I didnt save any of the ones that went stiff as boards. Some kicked on as if there was nothing wrong for a while and then they just became sickly and died. This was in corgi litters so its not a boxer thing. I rang the vet and asked her what the hell it was and she said it was because they had at some time become cold usually with moving air as in a draught or a whelping box with no lid etc. Then they warm up and you think that they will be O.K. but the damage has already been done. Im not sure I went along with this 100percent as Ive seen puppies before that got cold but Ive never seen this ever before. Anyway since then my husband went out and bought castors for the whelping boxes that actually made sure that they were higher off the floor as this was the only thing we could come up with that may have been different as the corgi whelping box was lower so she could get in and out easier.She had heater pads and was in the lounge room where the heater was on but when I moved around the box with a candle the flame let me know that there was moving air over her. So now when Im whelping I have masking tape around all of the windows and stuff under the doors etc to try to prevent any moving air. After the whelping I cover the box as well.We actually built the whelping boxes for the boxers 4 feet 6 inches tall so we could put a lid on that too.So they turn into sort of a cave. I know Im not being much help but Ive never seen that either before or since and I was absolutely amazed when the little things were stiff one minute definitely dead as [ I did have a stethescope]and back to life the next.I looked for ages for some info on this but couldnt come up with anything to suggest that it wasnt just hypothermia.There's something about the thing that niggles me though. Why only the one bitch . In my case it was one corgi bitch and in yours one boxer bitch. I too am interested to see if anyone else has ever had this. By the way congratulations on the litter and I hope you save the little guy thats gone stiff.Very strange.