Steve

If you have 10 puppies and 2 have almond shaped eyes you wouldn't think twice about taking one of them over the others [ all else being equal] to keep for breeding.You wouldn't consider what other genes you may loose by selecting this shaped eye yet you say you wouldn't eliminate a dog without pigment because you may loose other genes that link with it. Now so far [ touch wood] I haven't had to consider this because in over 20 years I've never bred one with lighter pigment. I have never bred one or had one with thyroid problems,cancer , joint problems or itchies and Im up to over a couple of hundred. My biggest issues are head shape and eye shape in what I'm selecting for once Im sure of the working ability now Ive sorted out the coats. Ive mucked it up a bit along the way but Ive learned a bit too. Its simple - doesnt need to be complicated at all - light pigment is undesirable its a fault, just as a club foot would be a fault and no one would breed with it regardless of what other genes may tag along with it - unlikely - but I don't want light pigment showing up in my whelping box and if affected dogs are going to be bred rather than being overlooked for breeding as they have been until recently sooner or later its going to happen. Im about to buy myself a new boy and Im going to be ticked off if he throws pink noses more than I can say - a pedigree doesn't tell me where the pink noses were so Im flying blind and the more that are in the gene pool the greater the risk Im going to see it. I dont want it.

errhh! Thanks I think. Hell no, I'm not offended. Dialogue is not only necessary it is absolutely paramount. I am not afraid of being wrong, and people should not use that admission disproportionately because I also love being right. For crissakes I got a MA out of it so its served me well. But the jury is out, so call me a fence sitter if you want but I have not done anything other than defend a pup against culling. You would not get out of here alive if you had ever attempted to take Chalice from me and did not retreat, and I suspect the owners of Lumen feel very much the same. The two dogs, both from separate litters have not shown any health issues, to date. I homed both of them to homes that were above and beyond far superior to any other home my pigment dogs have gone to. So when I do something worth crucifying me for, then come and call. Oh wait, maybe I should have phrased that differently because you don't need to do something wrong to get yourself crucified. Tralee this is twice in this thread Ive tried to explain this - no one not one person that I know of and certainly not one thats been involved in this thread would expect you to kill a dog because its born with no pigment .I would absolutely think you an animal if you did and would never consider it myself. For you to keep on about it looks like you are dodging the issue.I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really have misunderstood so . Read my lips - When someone says cull it from a breeding program it means don't use it to breed with not don't let it live.

Here is the problem I have. If you are not a Vicdogs member and you have three dogs you can do anything you want with them but the minute you have 4 you have to have them prodded and poked,have diet plans and retirement plans.Get told how to feed them and when etc .Now if this were about the dogs and they really think thats what is best for dogs how come they dont make every one who has even one dog tow this line? If you are a Vicdogs member you get to do what you want up to number ten then that extra dog changes everything for you and every other dog you own. This has got nothing what ever to do with what is best for the dogs and it sure as hell wont make life any better or any less stressful for breeding dogs. Puppy farmers don't care about any of this because all they want is production for a period of time . They don't care how a diet may impact on the dog's longevity or how over vaccination and over medication may compromise its immune system. They have no interest in keeping older dogs because they don't have to care about how their health may deteriorate to lead to diseases that show up later in life which a dog may pass onto their puppies . Some breeds need to be assessed and if they are still well and helathy used at stud way past 6 years of age. In some breeds it can mean the difference between a devloping heart murmur or a multitude of others. Its just piss ants telling us how to suck eggs. No experience in breeding dogs or even owning more than one or two at a time but bloody experts on how it should be done - so they can get a conviction and shut us down if we get caught throwing a bone around.

Yep of course they do - but it would appear we have to feed our dogs as we are told because of how animal rights loonies feed their babies which sleep on satin pillows and sit up each day with a knife and fork not what works best for us or our dogs. It's about what looks like it is a maternity hospital or child care centre rather than a bloody back yard or kennel.

I am guessing the new codes might have come about because of Carol Freeman rather than animal rights. Yep. So from now on it will be against the law to throw a bone to your dog because Carol was caught doing it .

Vets must love it - must be making a fortune out of it . Health plans, diet plans , retirement plans, examinations, vaccinations, laughing all the way to the bank. Do you think someone should tell them dogs eat shit and they dont wait for it to be put into a bowl?

Sssssshhhh

Well it say here that cooking it still has a problem associated. http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agriculture/pests-diseases-and-weeds/animal-diseases/zoonoses/hydatids-a-disease-of-dogs-that-affects-people

Yep

It would appear they are on about breeders who feed meat which hasn't gone through a butcher shop - where there is a risk of Hydatid but surely people who feed offal via butcher shop shouldn't have to be in a situation where offal can never be eaten - its ridiculous. they are big over medicating on worming anyway .

I have to write a response to it and Im finding it really difficult to do because it is SO far away form what we know is best science and husbandry .Surely to God filthy puppy farmers are not that much of a problem that everyone else's dogs have to be treated as badly as they want them to be. Amazing they want to say they have to get two days between sex but they only have to have a smal area to live in and get to move for 2x 30 mins a day to get some exercise. Its nuts. Does anyone know any species that needs to rest 2 days between sex ? If dogs could talk I reckon male dogs would be pretty put out about that - in fact if you have a boy on the premises where on heat bitches live who cant get a bit twice a day they get stressed and often need to be sedated - If it wasn't so serious it would be funny.

very true most vets want you to feed what commercial food they sell and its rather insulting to think you study canine nutrition for decades and you have to do as you're told by some pimple faced vet who did a week of canine nutrition with info supplied by dog food companies. They dont care anyway if the dog takes it out of the bowl its about what their cameras can catch you at when they sneak around - read the introduction you can see animal rights all over it.

the fact that it is in the code give it legitimacy so even though a Vicdogs member with under 10 dogs can throw their dog a bone without a bowl if they snap you doing it then its a better case for them to say you suck.

I find it amazing that we can put our whole lives into trying to get it right and all of that can be negated by some pencil pusher who listens too much to animal rights and takes away the choices we should be able to use to manage our own dogs. I can just imagine a government telling me I need separate bowls for my sheep

Yes it is aimed at business - anyone who has over 3 dogs or over 10 dogs if they are Vicdogs members and its tempting to simply say most Vicdogs members dont have over 10 dogs and so we needed be bothered by it but at any time exemptions can be taken away and its really supposed to be about the dogs not what suits one group of members only because they get exemptions.

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/pets/about-pets/breeding-and-rearing-code-review-public-comment/draft-proposed-revised-code/introduction Take a look at the minimum and maximum ages to be able to breed a dog - you can breed a small breed from 1 year to 10 ! but a large breed from 2 years to 5. Puppy farm heaven. but now you can have back to back litters. You have to let a male dog have a 2 day rest after sex no science in that one. No sex for boys after 7 either

Its within the new codes being proposed for breeding dogs in Victoria - it will apply to everyone who has more than 3 dogs or if they are Vic Dogs members if they have 10 dogs. This is straight out of animal rights black book where they filmed a breeder throwing her dogs chicken frames and made her out to be a dreadful person for doing so. Surely they cant dictate this minutely how a breeder should feed their dogs? I mean you cant even buy them a liver or kidney to feed them! Why not just leave it as their greyhoud code is? 3.1 Nutrition<br style="padding: 0px; margin: 0px;"> All greyhounds must be fed at least once a day. Puppies between three and four months of age require a minimum of three feeds a day and between four and six months of age must be fed a minimum of twice daily with a nutritionally balanced diet. The food provided must contain acceptable nutritive values in sufficient quantity to meet appropriate daily requirements for the condition and size of the animal. All greyhounds must have a permanent supply of fresh, clean water. Food and water containers must be non spillable and of a design that can be easily cleaned and does not cause injury to the greyhounds.

Would appear that if you get caught throwing your dog a bone you will be in the poo if you live in Victoria Big emphasis on feeding every dog every time from its own bowl here. 5 (1) Nutrition Food must be provided in sufficient quantity and nutritional quality; where the food is canine appropriate and scientifically balanced, to meet the daily requirements for the condition and size of the animal. Minimum quantity and nutritional quality of feed must be detailed within the health plan developed in conjunction with, and signed off by, a veterinarian for each classification of dog in the Business. Main meal of the day must be provided in food receptacle that has been cleaned of all uneaten food. All adult and adolescent dogs must be fed a minimum of once daily from a food receptacle. Pregnant and lactating bitches must be fed at least twice daily, or under instruction from a veterinarian, from a food receptacle. Puppies 3 weeks of age to weaning must be provided with an appropriate food in a shallow food receptacle according to the business' health plan. Fully weaned puppies less than 16 weeks of age must be fed a minimum of three times daily from a food receptacle; and must not be left without food for a period of more than 12 hours. Puppies between 4 and 6 months of age must be fed a minimum of twice daily from a food receptacle; and must not be left without food for a period of more than 12 hours. Orphaned and pre-weaned puppies must be fed under the direction of a veterinarian. When multiply housed, each animal must be provided with their own food receptacle; the operations manager must ensure all animals are socially compatible to feed together and are able to eat a sufficient quantity of food without duress. Dogs must not be fed offal to reduce the risk of the introduction of hydatids. Food must be stored appropriately in sealed containers, which must be vermin proof, and refrigerated where manufacturers recommendations suggest it is required. At any time the Business must hold a minimum of five days food supply, sufficient to feed all classifications of animals kept at the Business. The preparation of food must be conducted in hygienic areas which must be cleaned and disinfected after food is prepared. Food receptacles must be non-spillable and made of a material that can be cleaned and disinfected. Containers must not cause injury to the animals.

Sorry Lilli this thread isnt about Talee's dogs - its about the Italian dogs which he feels we should be aspiring to regardless of what we may compromise on to get them. Its not a scrutiny of his dogs or his breeding program as far as Im concerned its about the breed and where its heading in general.

In dogs usually blood tests are only done when symptoms occur - they arent done as a matter of course and breeders test for genetic issues and hip scores etc but its rare to have dogs tested without something needing to be investigated more via symptoms. Lots of immune system issues which may have a genetic component are able to be spotted quicker by watching the blood work which is not perfect but better than nothing until such time as there are DNA tests for them - a long way off. Without them dogs are bred without symptoms and things like Addisons show symptoms years later - the blood work might be able to tell a story sooner - might not too but worth a go.

It shows up in blood test but problem is it needs to be done at least yearly as it is reliant on diet and aging etc. Would be good to be able to eliminate the C gene too but that will take a while. All of my dogs get a yearly blood test now and Im working at firstly what is and isnt normal for the breed and taking note of anything such as a difference in enzyme levels etc which may be able to be used in conjunction with the pedigree and really good records re environmental changes and meds vaccines etc to determine patterns or warning signs for future reference if anything does show up. I see more potential benefit in that than I do in hip scoring for the future of the breed. If we wait until the science is done as it usually is it will take too long - we need to be collecting as much as we can in case we can use it for breeding decisions.

Steve is there any way of mitagating the damage by way of how we feed or manage pups? Things to recomend to puppy buyers? Short answer is we need more research. We are in the wrong forum so Ill go short. Thyroid issues in dog's numbers are often correlated to cases diagnosed in humans because you need iodine and other nutrients to be able to get this enzyme to go. So humans who get thyroid issues are often living in areas where iodine is lacking in their water source and diet - and their dogs get a higher incidence too. I guess part of the answer is that you can get this condition via it being straight out inherited as it is in some breeds where they are not able to have the enzyme required working properly linked to white dogs more than any others - or it may turn out to be what the bitch ate or what her mother ate or something she was exposed to whilst pregnant etc but you can also have this shut down due to the diet lacking in the amino acids ,vitamins and minerals you need to assimilate essential amino acids to turn them into non essential amino acids.they are called non essential because the dog makes them if all is well and doesnt need to eat them. By the way Im relating specifically to thyroid issues but its about the same result for other conditions usually associated with aging as they are all related to this enzyme not working or slowing down as the dog ages - its also affected by the weather too - this snow noses. Maremma or some Maremma may be more genetically prone to this than the others but we dont know that yet. Iodine, selenium, Zinc, Copper, Iron , vitamin A, bs,D and E are all needed to make it go. Any of these missing and that affects the ability for the dog to manufacture the enzyme. Cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, and cabbage naturally release a compound called goitrin when they’re broken down. Goitrin can interfere with the synthesis of thyroid hormones,Soy is another potential goitrogen. Anything with millet in it is awful as it creates a problem even if there is a good source of iodine.So they need to read the dog food labels. Raw Beef, chicken, egg, fish,and game meat is all good. So if you use the above info to advise puppy buyers on what to avoid and what to feed its a good start - also a good idea to make sure you cover it with your breeding girls.

Fact - Tyrosine is an amino acid which is made from another amino acid called phenylalanine. Fact - some dogs cannot produce enough working tyrosinase enzyme Fact - Tyrosine helps produce melanin. Fact - Insufficient tyrosine causes insufficient thyroid hormone and numerous other health conditions. Fact – light pigment is undesirable not just for working dogs due to possible issues with skin cancer and insect bites but also according to the standard. So conclusion. At least until we know if we are playing around with the C gene which doesn't produce enough working tyrosinase enzyme in dogs - as breeders - there is no good reason to breed a dog which has a lack of pigment and several reasons to alert us to stay away from it. You are absolutely 100% right I may be wrong and everyone else in the world who says lack of pigment equals greater risks for cancer etc may be way off track too – but what if ? Too much to loose to gamble with. I'm not having a go at you because you owned one or bred with it - but it really is a biggy if its overlooked and seen as something that doesn't need to be considered into the future.

Thank you. It seems there has been an amendment to POCTAA since I made my inquiries and you are right a pingg fence is good to go for dogs but still not ordinary electric fencing used for stock - Good news. My apologies.

So are you saying the fence is illegal without knowing the voltage and misquoting the law? The law states that the electric thread must be 15mm off the fence. Can't have it both ways. Tralee all I know of this is that I spoke with the RSPCA and I was advised that I couldnt install an electric fence of any description if my dogs were going to be exposed to it - so on my property I cant have an electric fence. Im not going to argue with them because I dont want anything which may impact on my ability to do what I do.If you are certain you fit within the prevention of Cruelty to Animals legislation good for you but I wouldn't have one here.I believe Rozzie went for an electric fence when it wasnt even turned on. I have looked up the law but not recently but have no recollection of any notations of it having to be 15 mm from anything within that legislation.