jesomil

A little OT but I just wanted to comment on the video with Daisy. Huski, you have come so far with her!! Her focus and the speed at which she respond to commands is great. Well done Thats the happiest little beagle i have seen heeling!

From the way you have interpreted what I have said, I would agree with what you are saying although I really dont get what you are saying with subjective/objective (too many big words ). Anyway, I now understand how it has been interpreted now you have explained how it has come across. So yes, every dog has a recall . There are so many hundreds of factors that have to be taken into consideration and differernt peoples interpretation as to what a recall actually is. My ideas and standards are different to the next person and so on. From what had been written in the few posts previously, there were no examples of the dog in question responding to a recall command. I am not a mind reader to assume it recalled at other times. I was only going on what was said, as I have stated many times before. It was never intended as an attack or put down. Obviously after further explanation, we found out that the dog has a recall and quite a good one at that. I merely responded to a post where the person sounded like they didnt have a recall and I was saying that it was a lack of understanding/ leadership problem not the fact that a recall couldnt be taught. I should not have mentioned it and it was a misunderstanding. After all, it matters not whether one dog can recall, it is about dogs in general. So in reality, every dog has a recall and no dogs have 100% recall taking into account every variable possible. I still believe in most circumstances that most people are ever going to come across, that you can get 100% recall. I am always a lurker in these threads but a boring weekend in a hotel has given me the interest to speak up. I am far better at demonstrating than writing so I think I have got my point across and dont really need to say much more! Not unless I am provoked . ETA punctuation!! oops.

Wow, my posts are being twisted and turned. I believe if a dog understands a recall it comes, if it doesnt, then it doesnt. Maybe we are just using different terminology and not understanding each other. Sorry bout that. I havent seen a reliable positively trained recall though??? I am not being cocky. I never said all my dogs have had 100% recall regardless of breed or background!!! Wow!! My current 2 do and also the sighthounds i worked very hard with. Thats after training dogs for 22 years. Crikey, I have trained some dogs to be really bad recallers on my journey. I have done the hard yards and worked with many, many dogs to form my opinions. I have made tonnes of mistakes along the way and have stuffed up many dogs (training wise (and still do)). My opinions are only based on my experience though and I still have heaps to learn and will continue to learn from those who achieve great things with their dogs . There is nothing black and white about it. I still think you can get a 100% recall though

Not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here? You can have that and a 100% recall. A dog that has a 100% recall will run, jump, sniff, play just the same as any other dog but when they hear the command they obey. They dont have to be owner focussed, incapable of entertaining themselves or unable to make their own decisions.

I didnt say that. I said this. I am sensing from your embellishment of exaggerration, you are reading my posts from a defensive viewpoint. I am not saying them like this at all. There is nothing to defend. ETA ok, delete the rest of that and simplify with this : Basically I made an observation based on many different scenarios you shared with us on how you manage your dog and getting it on lead, or inside or off the beach. It simply sounds like your dog has not a full understanding of the recall command. I am not attacking you, i am stating what it sounds like from the info you have presented. I only mentioned it because we were talking about training 100% recalls. Edited again.....trying to make sure I am coming across right.

This seems to be where it is going. My comments have never been suggesting it is possible for a newbie to simply go out and train a 100% recall. I have not been referring to newbie's at all, but simply stating the recall is possible.

I have hundreds of photos of the Afghan but am living in Asia for a few months and only have my new laptop so everything else is at home. This Affie is currently about 12yrs old and living the life of luxury. I rescued her from bad circumstances, rehabilitated her and trained her to prove a point. I owned her for only 2 yrs before rehoming her to a great Afghan home. Yes, I agree, it is going to be very difficult to achieve for alot of people but this thread was asking is it possible, not is it possible for a newbie or an average pet owner, so that is the angle I have been coming from. I dont suggest anyone letting their dogs loose, nor do I suggest anyone going beyond their capabilities without professional guidance. I simply said from what she is desciribing, it sounds as if the dog has no recall and calls the shots. What is wrong with that? Does anyone disagree going from what she said? I am stating what I think, I am not putting her down or saying she is bad. There is nothing wrong with having a dog that doesnt have a perfect recall. It simply sounds like the dog does not understand the command. I can understand how the comment could have sounded bad coming from a defensive point of view but it certainly was not my intention.

Sorry, perhaps I became a little defensive after some of the other comments towards me. I agree with the last paragraph. People certainly do develop their opinions based on their experience only regardless of how limited it is.

Thanks Erny. I was a bit worried there. I am not the best with words and getting my point across and I would hate to come across in anyway negative. Its sad when threads such as these get misinterpreted then all goes haywire and it disappears. I have seen a few good, knowledgable dog people get chased away from here over the years from stating an opinion and it all getting out of hand. Thats the trouble with only being able to type our thoughts.

I am quite curious how I have come across lacking humility?? I shall try to work on that from now on. Oh to be able to say things as well as Erny...... Me too. I agree. Negative consequences would be useless in dogs who are completely focussed and after the prey, thats why you would never do that. The training starts along time before they are let loose with prey.

I was using Diva's words not mine. She is the one who suggested that certain peole with certain opinions were coming from narrow experience. Diva

I am the one who somehow appears to have the lack of humility when it comes to recall training (which couldnt be further from the truth BTW) yet I have "hands on sighthound" experience. I dont think you have to be dedicated to the breed to have an opinion. I have trained an afghan (from adulthood) and several greyhounds. The afghan and a grey had 100% recalls in every situation they had been tested in but I wouldnt say 100% in every situation in general as I didnt have the opportunity to test them every situations. At dog parks daily, lurecoursing, race days, beach etc I was able to proof them but didnt have them long enough to do much more. The Afghan, i trialled in obedience and we were asked to perform obedience and agility at the Afghan nationals. Everyone was blown away, which is sad because these wonderful dogs are alot more capable than what the majority of people think. My dog didnt take her eyes off me and was offlead around many dogs and distractions and was super happy to boot. I am not big noting myself and I feel a bit silly having to explain all this but I am merely stating facts and it helps to understand where i am coming from. I am not saying all this through lack of humility. In my experience, I believe 100% recall is possible. My experience is not solely with my own dogs and I am not the be all and end all of dog training but i am merely stating my opinion. I am not saying everyone has to have a perfect recall. Not everyone aspires to it nor are interested. I honestly dont see how this is an online pissing contest. Anyway, everyone has a right to their opinion.

Pissing contest? My posts couldnt be further from that! I am trying to have a pleasant discussion on recalls but my opinions are being seen as lack of humility. I have no issues with people keeping their dogs on leads for life. It is not a competition!! Its just that I choose not to. My comment was neither rude or in any way putting down people on this thread. This forum attracts a different type of dog owner than some other forums. Doesnt mean anyone is better than anyone else, it means they keep dogs for different purposes and have differing expectations. No defensiveness needed, we all love our dogs and can do what we want with them.

Excellent posts Erny!! You always explain your opinions with such clarity. I agree with everything you are saying and you have such a better way of saying things than I.

This thread is not about attacking anyone or anyone having to prove themselves nor is it about ego or the I can do this better than you. Its about people stating in their opinion if it is possible to train a 100% recall. I believe in my experience, that it is possible, but not everyone agree's. If this question had been put on a different forum, catering to a different audience of dog handlers, the majority opinion could well be the opposite.

This is what I said in my previous post... There are hundreds of negative consequences you can employ but it depends on the dog and the level of training it is at. You must start with a basis of good leadership and very good timing or you can really make a mess and get really harsh with no effect.

How? That would be rather silly holding on to a belief just because it worked with only one dog. Most of the people that believe a 100% recall is possible are not coming from narrow experience. On the flip side, alot of the people disagreeing with the possibility of 100% are only coming from experience with their own dogs and their own training capabilities which is very limiting. Different temperaments make some dogs more likely to recall. Some are nervy, clingy or sensitive so will not need a negative consequence and will have natural recalls. And that is what you believe from your experience which is fine but others might have different experiences which brings them to opposite conclusions.

Quote from Corvus in another thread. Ok, I see where you are coming from now. Your way works for you, and you attain a level of recall that works for you and that is great. In your experience, that seems to be the level of control you work for and attain. But there are others who work for and attain effective control of their dogs in all situations. Because you havent experienced it, doesnt mean it isnt possible. The thread on recall was discussing the impossibility of 100% recall because no one in the thread so far had experienced or attained it. It might be worth spending some time with dogs with this level of control so you can see it is achievable. They arent robots, just highly trained dogs who's handlers have the experience and dedication to teach it to them.

And how did that work for you? Have you been able to achieve a recall where your dog comes immediately and fast under every circumstance? I am all for learning different ways of doing things but not if it doesnt produce the high standard I work towards.

Or do you mean in your experience it is just not realistic? People tend to base their opinions on their own experience but it doesnt mean it isnt possible. Mrs Rusty Bucket, from what you say it sounds like recall to your dog means "come if I feel like it". If managing her like this works for you then thats great but if I were you, I would be teaching her that a recall means come and come only, no excuses, no hiding, no bribery. This line suggests that it is the dog making the rules not you.

I dont believe just going and getting him would work either. Wouldnt work on any dog. So are you saying that you think its ok to manage a dogs environment and always have a bag of treats on board to get a really good recall?

Mrs Rusty Bucket, basically from what you have said, your dog has no recall and seems to call the shots a fair bit. If you started training recall in a small area, you certainly could catch your dog and there would be no chance of playing the nyah nyah game. Every dog loves their freedom and doesnt want to go back on lead!! Its whether you give them the option to disobey or not.

I agree. I have never seen a dog that is trained with positive methods only, recall solidly under heavy distraction. Two trainer friends of mine who have their own positive training businesses just manage their dogs off lead. They always have to have a bag of treats and make sure the area is fenced and their arent too many distractions. There was a big discussion on this a few years back and some people swore their dogs recalled well with positive methods but I have yet to see it myself. I start teaching a recall with rewards eg food. The dog learns that every time it comes, it gets food. After a while, they know the command well and recall beautifully with a reward every time. Then I up the distractions and wait for the one time the dog chooses not to respond. I then make the dog uncomfortable in whatever way works for the dog until it turns towards me again, then i back off and be happy. When they come after being put under pressure, they get rewarded with lots of praise. They get the idea very quickly that it is better to respond than ignore the recall command. It requires exact timing or you just cause confusion. Poor timing creates poor recalls. It has to be black or white, pressure or praise. Most dogs choose praise! By saying making the dog uncomfortable, I dont mean using violence, it all depends on the dog and their temperament. It might be a loud UH!! or a growl and a foot stamp near them, or a grab of the collar etc etc etc. By reading the dog, you can work out what makes them uncomfortable. Sheepdogs tend to have good recalls as they are trained for and constantly recall off their biggest reward in life which is working. Treats and balls arent going to get a sheepdog to stop working!! The proof is always in the pudding though. If your dog recalls happily and enthusiastically every time, you have a good method!

I think my dogs would have pretty much 100% recall excluding circumstances of them being badly hurt etc. I cannot think of a single situation that they wouldnt recall from and they have been tested in many. My boy will even recall off a bitch in full season without hesitation. He is a very confident, active dog but knows it is worth his while to recall over anything. Its not a matter of me having a reward. I had a Afghan I trained in agility and trialled in obedience. I got her at 2 years of age and taught her a very strong recall and she was always off lead with me but I wouldnt say I could achieve 100% with her although under most circumstances it would be close. I also had a young greyhound for a year who also had a solid, reliable recall but couldnt say it would be 100%. I could let my sighthounds off anywhere I would let my other dogs off without problem but I dont believe I could achieve 100% like i could with my working dogs, more like 90%. I didnt use methods requiring me to be more exciting than what they were after though as it simply wouldnt work. I use negative reinforcement always for recalls as that has provided me with happy, confident, safe dogs to take out.

OH's GSD lived till 16yrs. She lived on Pal and only had puppy vaccinations but nothing else. She had basic care and minimal exercise. My Rott who had the very best of everything died just after her 10th birthday. Our cats lived to 19 and 17yrs and were only ever fed Whiskas. Never had any treatment for anything.