MalteseLuna

Whats with the nit picking? They were purebred dogs, how would I know what they were surrended with. I'm just a member of the public making an observation.

There is a difference between a pedigree dog (which comes with papers) and a dog that looks like a purebred dog. I would posit that most dogs in pounds are not pedigree dogs if only because pedigree dogs make up a very small percentage of the dog population as a whole. Hence the nitpicking.

Exactly!

Are you intending the dog to be a pet (i.e. inside with you/your family) or a livestock guardian/working dog?

Personally if it was for a pet then no.

Often it's called winter nose - lots of dogs get this.

My Maltese's nose goes brown in winter.

Also common in old age.

How old is Ammo?

Haha yes, unless they got the MLP reference. Saving scootaloo for my horse

I loved Bunny but that's too cute for an adult dog.

Looking at the list like that I think the short list is:

Luna

Lilly

Amelia Pond (can call pond, Mia, Amy)

I love the name Luna - but I'm biased as it's what I named my dog :D

Just wondered if everyone posting is aware that the Dingo is an ANKC recognised breed??

Yes - there was a push from some of the conservation groups for that.

:)

Thank you everyone

I know she had a lovely life it's just so sad as of the two dogs we didn't think it would be Xin to go first. Nu-Nu the pug has had 2 life-threatening experiences in the last 2 years which she was very lucky to survive (mouldy sandwhich and paralysis tick).

I'm not sure but I don't think it is possible for a Dingo to cross breed with another dog...any more than it is for a Basenji to...I believe they have the same unique reproductive system as Basenjis where they need the male to come into season in order for teh female to cycle too. Anyone?

Male dingoes in some climates have seasonal reproduction, but that's not found in temperate areas. I've never heard that the male season affecting the female season, more likely both are affected by the time of year, or resources available (ie. whether they are starving or not).

Dogs are root-rats, they'll quite happily mate with a dingo bitch and yes many many many pups have been born from these matings and roam our land!

edit - pretty sure there was a study where they took dingoes from the NT (where the males should be seasonal) and kept them down south somewhere, and they became fertile all year round, then kept some in central Aus in captivity and they remained seasonal. So it's a climate thing.

From what I hear from the dingo conservation groups in NSW they seem to cycle once a year at a specific time i.e. seasonal.

Sometimes I wonder about the kelpies, I know that people say they came from Scottish dogs but I know a lot of working kelpies that have a single heat per year. Could that be an indication that there is dingo genetics in there? At least in some lines

It's quite likely that dingoes were used or bred with Kelpies (atleast certain lines). But it is controversial, don't think anyone has really done any research on it.

ETA: Also I thought some brindling and at least a saddle like pattern had been seen in some of early studies on wild dingoes? That it was some what unknown if that was from crossing with dogs but that it hasnt been seen since (and there is so much dilution now in most) so considered a sign of crossing.

Yes there is some evidence of "dingoes" in the 1850-70's having brindling and dappling colours. This was reported in research by Professor Macintosh from Usyd. However it's not clear whether those might be the result of early hybridisation as dogs were certainly present in Australia by 1870 and probably fairly extensively spread. These colours are thought to be more modern than the split between dingoes/dogs, or so I think, so it's more likely they are from dog hybridisation.

Saddle colour I've never seen reported as a "dingo-like" colour. Sabling yes i.e. a black "stripe" along the dorsal like the Fraser Island dingoes.

There is strong evidence that black, black & tan, ginger and white are "real" colours as dingoes of these colours are described in reports either pre-european or very very early european colonisation i.e. 1788ish.

Exactly.

This is the real world, national parks dont have dog proof fences, they dont even have kangaroo proof fences.

I remember counting 200 kangaroos in among a friends cattle one morning. His property was beside what????????? National Park.

Imagine the screaming if he then allowed his cattle to shift into the next neighbours for a feed now the National park kangaroo's had cleaned his place out of feed?

we dont live in the ideal world.

I'm sorry but Kangaroos should be able to feed on any patch of grass they want.

This is the sentiment that really frustrates me... us humans need to co-exist with wild (native/indigenous) animals not exclude them for economic/financial gain.

Anyway this is going off-topic, I think we have answered the original question. I'm out of here

Yup am aware about the collection - still any vet can take blood or saliva and send it to a lab.

Saliva? What DNA tests are done on a dog's saliva?

Cheek swabs are a very common way of testing for a lot of things. Very easy to do and non invasive.

I use saliva sometimes as the quality/quantity of the DNA is actually far superior to buccal swabs for research. Blood is better than either :)

Personally I hate working with buccal swabs - often collected poorly or stored improperly before arriving in lab. Then if the DNA quality/quantity is poor often requires multiple repeats etc.

Saliva would be a way better option - but the kits are much more expensive (i.e. $15 per collection kit).

But I did wrongly say saliva when I meant buccal swab

Xin was my parents first dog when we moved to Australia, she was really more my dog until 2005 when I moved out of home (my parents wouldn't let me take her with me). As a pre-teen and teen she was my best friend and confident, she slept on my bed every night and followed me everywhere. She is what fostered my love of dogs.

She passed away last night at the vet after a nearly 4 month struggle with heart and liver cancer, surprising because in July when she was diagnosed the vet told us it would be days. My parents made the difficult decision last night that it was her time to go after she seemed to be very uncomfortable and in pain (despite pain medications). She was emaciated from the cancer but still wagged her tail with her jaunty (but slower) walk to greet people at the door or ask for her dinner (6 times a day :laugh:).

Run free Xinie.

Here is a picture of Xin (the golden one) and Luna (my "own" dog) when I was looking after Xin a few years ago.

Xin leaves behind Nu-Nu my parents Pug who will be very lonely having not been separated from Xin since 1998 when we got them both as puppies. The last few weeks as Xin has been deteriorating they have been spending all day cuddling together, something which in the past they wouldn't have done. Each preferring their own space.

DNA tests are completely different as anyone can take a blood or saliva sample and get it sent to a lab (by a vet) and it should be fairly inexpensive given the technology- particularly for a commercial lab.

Anybody can take the swab but unless taken by an authorised collector or a vet it won't be recognised officially. Also, as showdog pointed out, some tests are not able to be done in Australia due to patents owned by other labs.

DNA seems very simple but it isn't always the case in reality, depending upon your breed/s.

Yup am aware about the collection - still any vet can take blood or saliva and send it to a lab.

I also know about the patent issues and the current monopoly in Australia. I said/meant that it should be easy given the technology. But then only for tests that are verified and not all breeds have tests available/verified. But if there are... what can the justification be to not preform testing?

Hopefully AU government will overturn gene patents and then other labs can open.

It's slightly annoying seeing a test that in all reality costs about $10-15 to preform costing $150 or more for the breeder/customer. Most of the tests are based on fairly simple technology by today's standards :)

As a genetics major I am perhaps a little biased :)

It is so sad, I hope they get her back..Hopefully with all the media coverage they will.

It is so sad to see the usual crap about what a little toad (that's a bit nicer than what some are calling him) etc regarding the kid..

The kid might be an innocent in all this.

Maybe he thought she was lost (she was apparently out the front of a shop) and he was trying to find her owner and decided to take her home.. (not everyone is like us and knows to call the pound or go looking for a lost pets owner)..

Who knows??

I do really hope they get to the bottom of it and get her back and IF she was in fact stolen, I hope the people responsible are charged accordingly.

She was wearing a collar with the names and numbers of her owners so if whoever took her was legitimately trying to find her owners then she should be home already, it's been a week.

She is also chipped.

For example there is no recognized national scheme or standardized testing for patellas and while more standardized (in terms of rhe testing run by a small number of breed clubs) for hearts either. Until recently people in nsw who want heart testing generally had to go to Melbourne. There are now to my knowledge a total of 3 (maybe 4?) cardiology specialists in total in this country.

One of the DNA tests for my breed is not available in Australia as the company that holds the patent does not offer it. And because they have the Aust rights I can't send a blood sample overseas to the US counterpart to be done !!!

That is simply ridiculous. It's why A. there shouldn't be gene patents and B. there should be more than 1 lab in Australia offering genetic testing.

Colour doppler echocardiography costs $400 per dog and is available (to the best of my knowledge) in one city in Australia - Melbourne.

Given the extremely low incidence of heart issues in Whippets and the cost and limited availability of comprehensive heart testing, I don't think ANKC breeders should be judged as no better than BYBs for not heart testing their breeding dogs using this technology.

Others may disagree.

If there are not the facilities for the health testing then they couldn't/shouldn't be made mandatory.

DNA tests are completely different as anyone can take a blood or saliva sample and get it sent to a lab (by a vet) and it should be fairly inexpensive given the technology- particularly for a commercial lab.

Isn't there new lines of research to suggest feral cats have been here longer than one thought? Perhaps predating European settlement?

I've never heard that before... I'm off to google scholar

Wasn't able to find anything...

interesting - i can't see how a wild animal populations that has been living geographically isolated and intact for thousands of years could be considered anything other than wild indigenous animals

It depends on who's asking, and why they're asking.

To an evolutionary biologist, a few thousand years is nothing. Because dingoes haven't been in Aus long enough to evolve in conjunction with the native marsupials it makes no sense to consider them native. When looking at questions of how the Australian native fauna arose and evolved, the dingo isn't part of that picture.

But to an ecologist, dingoes have been here long enough to integrate into almost all of our ecosystems, and interact with other fauna in a significant way (by being our largest terrestrial predator). Many ecologists view dingoes as a substitute for our lost thylacine, in that it fulfils a similar ecological role, so talking about them as a native/naturalised part of our fauna does make sense.

Interestingly many state governments define dingoes as indigenous (native) in legislation. Yet other legislations allow or require culling. Seems illogical/incongruent.

Example - Fraser Island is a world heritage site and dingoes are classed as indigenous in QLD (and/or protected in "national parks") - also pure/intact populations are supposed to be conserved. Yet there is active culling on Fraser Island. Mainly for economic/human benefit.

Whenever someone asks me if dingoes are native I run from the room yelling "I'm not getting involved!!"

Haha - I rarely get asked that specific question. I wasn't really commenting on my personal opinion but rather the legislative definitions and in-congruency etc :D

It confuses me as well.

But if it was required I would like/want to see more labs offering testing. Also currently it is quite expensive for what are fairly simple genetic tests. Lots of profit for the company offering testing particularly as they hold most patent licensing in AU.

Interestingly many state governments define dingoes as indigenous (native) in legislation. Yet other legislations allow or require culling. Seems illogical/incongruent.

Example - Fraser Island is a world heritage site and dingoes are classed as indigenous in QLD (and/or protected in "national parks") - also pure/intact populations are supposed to be conserved. Yet there is active culling on Fraser Island. Mainly for economic/human benefit.

There are several colours that pure dingoes can be - ginger (may have light sabling), white, black, black & tan. Often Ginger dogs have white markings (socks/tail tips).

Slightly off topic but interesting, these are the colours shibas are found in as well, right down to often shareing a black mask as pups :D

Yup - but the coat colour genes are quite old so it doesn't mean much :p The more modern colours are brindling and patchy colours (including merle) which aren't often found in older breeds. Most dog breeds have small or defined colour patterns because of selective breeding.

Dingoes are known to hunt alone a lot of the time so pack theory is weak at best, I'll try and find the study I was reading about it the other day.

Other dogs can become a valuable 'pack' if indeed the dingo is a pack animal as they do get along quite well usually. I still don't consider a dingo a 'wild' animal and most textbooks don't either. They are not considered a 'true' wild dog in a lot of a scientific circles. Also the dingo's ability to adapt is there to see plainly, from the pet ones I have viewed since I started researching this topic they seem happy, well adjusted and content animals. Yes they have more acute senses that need special handling and care but dingo savvy people can provide that.

Sure but that doesn't really mean much :) Politics gets mixed in :) By many experts they are considered a wild dog, one that is not fully domesticated. rather a proto- or pre-domesticate.

Thank goodness, you are wondering the same as me.

As to the confusion as to whether the Australian Dingo is a "wild" or feral dog. One must look at the orign of the animal. This extract from a journal article written by Savolainen et al. (2004) can give some in sight (please see full reference at the bottom of this post.)

" The dingo originated from a population of East Asian dogs. Type A29 was one of several domestic dog mtDNA types brought into Island Southeast Asia, but only A29 reached Australia. The dingo population was probably founded from a small number of animals, as the last trickle of domestic dogs through a series of bottlenecks, or even by a single chance event and has since remained effectively isolated from other dog populations. The dingoes may have arrived in connection with the expansion, starting ≈6,000 yr ago, from south China into Island Southeast Asia of the Austronesian culture. By this time, domestic dogs had existed for several thousand years (4, 11), and the present semidomestic state of the dingo can probably be attributed to a long existence as a feral animal. After >3,500 years of isolation, the dingoes represent a unique isolate of early undifferentiated dogs. "

From this we can conclude that the dingo is not a truly wild breed of dog, but semidomesticated to feral breed. Hence more likely to integrate well into a cohabitation enviroment with humans.

Anecdotal evidence has shown that dingo can be a more sociable animal than some recognized breeds of domestic dog.

• Savolainen, P. Leitner, T. Wilton, A,N. Matisoo-Smith,E. Lundeberg, J. (2004) A detailed picture of the origin of the Australian dingo, obtained from the study of mitochondrial DNA. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America. Vol. 101 no. 33 12387-12390
  

Link to full article below.[/font]

http://www.pnas.org/content/101/33/12387.full

Thats an 'old' paper - there is a more recent paper by those authors/groups which re-estimated the arrival to between 4,000-18,000 years BP. In science there are no real "finite" results - new results come to light and change or evolve the current understandings. The nuclear paper which was cited before (VonHoldt et al 2010) again suggested dingoes are an "ancient" breed possibly diverging before true domestication too place.

To me a major issue is a real scientific definition of wild vs feral or native vs introduced. It varies between publications/articles and there is no real consensus. Until we have that it all depends upon the experts opinion etc. To be honest it's beneficial for the AU government to consider dingoes as a feral - allows them to be culled vigorously to promote livestock. Interesting that most articles discussing culls always use "wild dog" rather than dingo. Removing dingoes poses serious issues to ecological functioning of australian ecosystems - they are the sole remaining top predator (and have been for 4000+ years).

so as long as the dingo traits that no one can state specifically are of interest to some certain individuals even tho they can't put those specific traits into words is justification enough to own one, i have the right to own one because i want one, enuff said - how much more ego-centric, selfish and immature can people get - not labelling.

on a behavioural level - not a dictionary level - can somoene explain the difference behaviourially to a "feral" animal living and surviving completely in the wild and a "wild" animal doing the same thing. behaviourally there is no distinction so moot point.

weird logic: a wild animal is not a wild animal if a group of people classifiy it as a feral animal even tho its living in the wild and surviving as one???

Who are you to tell people what they can own though? Who are any of us to dictate what someone else should own. Most of the reasons we own animals are selfish ones, we rarely get a dog just for the dog, so why is it any different for dingoes?

There is a difference between domesticated animals and un-domesticated animals.

I don't know if anyone can really ever "own" a dingo - maybe "tolerated" :D I've not had many interactions though!

That's why I said broad, because I didn't think they have been verified. ML, do you know Brad Smith? He was my honours student and did his PhD on dingo cognition. He's become fairly well respectable in the dingo community. One of the reasons for our interest in dingos is the unusual type of history they had with humans, so we wanted to see which side of the cognitive fence they'd fall on some tasks, closer to domestic dogs for wolves.

Sorry - I just got pedantic :D I hear the comment about "three sub-types" or "I've got an Alpine Dingo" alot!

I know of Brad :) haven't met him as yet. I thought the papers coming from his PhD were very interesting!

Their history with humans is interesting as well has how/when they may have gotten here and what role they fulfill (ecologically) now.

How sad!

I find their tone grating because they're labeling everyone who has a pet dingoes as selfish attention seekers basically. A lot of people would disagree with having a LGD as a family pet in suburbia as well, it doesn't mean it can't happen and it certainly doesn't mean you want it for status or "novelty". If people can provide a dingo with a good life, with everything it needs, then it sure beats being shot by a farmer. Dingoes are NOT wolves, Dingoes are descended from domestic Asiatic dogs and are basically feral and not truly wild. The notion that everyone who owns a dingo is cruel is what I find grating.

Again - there is some evidence that suggests dingoes might not ever have been domesticated - particularly in the way we now use that word. Perhaps pre-domesticate would be a better word :) A feral to me is something that has been domesticated for generations and is then released. Dingoes have been wild/free-living in Australia for 4,000+ years (possibly up to 18,000 years) based on current published scientific research.

Dingoes also have several morphological indicators suggestive of non-domesticated heritage including single yearly estrous and large carnassial/canine teeth. They (and NGSD) are also extremely flexible. They typically don't bark (although they can) but rather howl/yodel.

They are not a typical domesticated dog - I would consider them something between the wolf and "domestic dog". Worth a note that wolves and dogs are all the same species, dogs are a sub-species of wolf.

Yes, black and tan dingos can be pure, there are different broad sub types, tropical, desert and alpine.

The broad types haven't been scientifically verified - that's anecdotal.

There are several colours that pure dingoes can be - ginger (may have light sabling), white, black, black & tan. Often Ginger dogs have white markings (socks/tail tips).

Any colour pattern such as brindled, sable saddle (i.e. GSD colour pattern), patchy are evidence of hybridisation.

There are arguments for conservation breeding programs to exist, this is different from keeping them as pets, and this may well be important if any evidence of genetic or morphological subdivision is identified (as suggested by anecdotal evidence of 3 broad sub-types). But there are serious issues with conservation groups selecting for traits such as colour, hand-ability, temperament etc which may impact on the integrity of the captive dingo and thus breeding programs. Complex issue - no simple answers.

Ah yes KTB, but wolf puppies are also like dogs, until they grow up and say "stuff you meatbag" and start doing their own thing ;)

Not a breed, but a wild animal, with wild animal instincts.

I disagree. They are decendened from domestic animals and came across to Australia together with man. They are not truly a "native animal"..and all dogs have the capacity to go 'wild' and feral.

I have known many Dingo pet dogs here in Victoria over the years and they are no more difficult to train and own than many other "demanding' breeds. Truly, they are not for everyone and shouldn't be. But then neither is a German Shepherd, Basenji, Border Collie, or a Kelpie......

Okie dokie - incoming very long reply :D Nerd hat on :laugh:

Dingoes aren't likely to be descended from "domestic animals" but rather from early or pre domesticated dogs. There is a degree of flexibility in the dating of dingo arrival BUT they have certainly been in Australia for ~4,000 years.

In regards to what is a "native" animal - huge issue - there is really no solid "definition" of what a native animal is. Certainly dingoes play a hugely important role in ecological functioning as they are the sole remaining top level terrestrial predator (having replaced the Tassie Tiger and Devil). I personally consider them indigenous :)

I disagree. They are decendened from domestic animals and came across to Australia together with man. They are not truly a "native animal"..and all dogs have the capacity to go 'wild' and feral.

I have known many Dingo pet dogs here in Victoria over the years and they are no more difficult to train and own than many other "demanding' breeds. Truly, they are not for everyone and shouldn't be. But then neither is a German Shepherd, Basenji, Border Collie, or a Kelpie......

I would say they are descended from commensal animals that lived in association with man, but not they'd ever been what I would consider domesticated.

I'm not saying dingoes can't be good pets, just that we have worked so hard for so long to breed the traits that work for us into dogs, so they make even bettter pets!

Agree Weasels..just pointing out the misnomer that they are a native animal. Admittently they, like the Aboriginals have been here for a bloody long time. :) Commensal animals that lived in association with man...isn't that how ALL domestic dogs started?

Domestic dogs have been subjects to generations of strong selective breeding - the suggestion Weasels is making is that dingoes may not have experienced much if any selective breeding. Perhaps pups were tamed and packs may have lived near humans but it's plausible that they were not domesticated in the sense your thinking.

He is gorgeous but I dont think he looks pure - I'm no expert though!

He was originally classified as dingo x acd but apparently some dingo experts thought that he looked like a pure Alpine dingo. No idea - I didn't think that there many pure dingos around anymore anyway ...

Morphology is a very unreliable indicator of "purity" or genetic integrity. Unless he was tested (genetically) then it's likely he is a hybrid, particularly if he came from NSW or Vic.

Lol sounds like I've been out nerded weasels :D the one I read re husky genetics appears to have been superseded by yours if you still have the reference I'd love to have a read :)

Sibes are a little confusing though as they were crossed with the grey wolf back in the Inuit days but how much of that has been retained I'm not sure.

:laugh: the saddest part is that it's my day off work I guess nerding is something more difficult to escape

Crossing does make things difficult, but the study looked at so many different genetic markers the over-riding signal should come through, the extra wolf DNA would increase the statistical error but I don't think it would adjust their position in the phylogenetic tree :)

The paper - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20237475

The paper does make the point that backcrossing to wolves at a more modern time could have been responsible for the phylogenetic pattern. This seems likely given the breed history?

Dingoes, NGSD and some of the south-east asian dogs also partitioned out with some of the asian wolves, making it plausible they backcrossed or were derived from asian wolves. (this was in another analysis they did).

If the ad was in SA or QLD then it likely is illegal :) otherwise sadly not. Personally I think there should be controls on who can keep them as they are hardly your average "dog" and need a more committed and savvy owner.

Also just a pointer - unless you see some evidence that the dog has been genetically tested it's quite possible it's not a dingo but rather a hybrid. Looks can be deceiving.

This is the best coat colour genetics webpage - written by one of the leading scientists studying canine coat colour (among other things). There are many genes that are yet to be identified.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

Basically there are two types of colour pigment (phaeomelanin and eumelanin) and there are several genes which alter the colour of either of the pigments or the way the pigment is laid down in the coat (i.e. coat colour patterns like black with tan points or sable).

Most of the "dilution" genes are yet to be genetically identified.

Main genes are A locus (Agouti), E locus (MC1R), B locus (Tryp1) and K locus (CBD103). The interactions between these genes affects coat colour patterns of a dog.

Some coat colours appear to be the same genetically but are phenotypically different in different breeds - likely a yet to be discovered modifier gene.