megan_

Once the litter is born, you work with what you have. The work needs to go into selecting the right (proven adult) dogs to breed with and the right dogs to desex. The very act of showing a dog successfully is an adequate test of nerves for most breeds. If a dog can handle that environment and being handled by a complete stranger repeatedly without any aggression or anxiety, then that is a good thing. I agree. I was responding to Joel's post that buyers/brrders should know which dogs are weak nerved by 8 weeks (when buyers come to collect their new pup). I don't think it is reasonable to expect a buyer or a breeder to be able to 100% identify every weak nerved dog. Joel - a lot of very experienced people (sas, greytmate) are telling you that weak nerves are also genetic. Take their advice on board! One last example to demonstrate the point. I have a rescue dog who used to be a breeding bitch at a puppy farm. Awful amount of abuse. She was rescued and rehomed along with her other "sisters". Within a few days of being witha foster carer, all the other dogs (I hate calling them bitches ) were coming up to the foster carer, wagging their tails, happy to see her. But not Lucy. She stayed in the back, ears pinned down, trembling. Six dogs. Same shitty environment, but very different outcomes. The only variable was genetics (nerves). Joel - I think you can have a dog that doesn't love kids, but not one that attacks kids out of the blue. Why? Because you can't guarantuee 100% that your dog will never come into contact with a child. You need to take your dog outside to get mental stimulation (child might run out of a house/garden - happened to me a few times), to the vets etc. The risk to the community is too great. This doesn't mean that the dog is "bad" and needs to be punished by PTS, or that it is the dog's fault, it just means that the dog can't live as a companion animal in our society - it just doesn't fit.

I'd be interested to hear from breeders but weak nerves don't always show up by 8 weeks I believe. A dog may be a bit more reserved (not a bad thing) at 8 weeks, and only show their true temperament later on.

Some dogs are weak nerved and that has nothing to do with the owner. I am so sick of bad dog = bad owner. Life is often a little more complicated than that. A weak nerved guarding breed (not saying this dog is that) is a very dangerous thing. BTW - most people here see their dog as part of their family. They just don't want Fido to be a danger to the community. Nothing wrong it that. I don't understand why you think you're the only one here that sees their dog as part of their family - most people have advised to see a behaviourist. However, a dog that attacks kids (or any human IMO) unprovoked is a danger to the community.

My vet signed a certificate that said their next vaccinations were due in 2012 and the boarding kennel has no issues with this? My advice is to find a vet that agrees with a 3 year protocol (with the annual vaccine and not the 3 year one) and go from there. I am too wary to let someone look after my dgos in my home - what if they don't close the door properly etc? I feel much more secure that they go to a kennel that I know and trust.

I know people wh think dogs should be allowed to play non stop and working/training is cruel!!

They are adjustable. They are also waterproof (except for the collar bit, which is annoying). If you want to see them in real life, I can bring Ferg's coat along to agility.

I think people are looking at it from an ethical perspective?

Some dogs are DA becasue they have weak nerves - nothing to do with the owner. Some of us owners have inherited abused dogs who would have been great dogs if they hadn't been through hell. We have invested lots of time, money, heart and sould into "fixing" them. Please don't paint all owners of DA dogs as "not deserving". Touchy subject

Why the eye rolling? It was a genuine question. If people say you need to keep control of their environment etc there are places that you have no control over - the vet is just one example.

Thanks for the legal side of things. I don't know who is saying it is okay to have an attack on public land though? If I had a DA dog on a leash, and a dog rushed up to it and it responded by attacking, wouldn't the rushing dog be the instigator?

Dory, I don't muzzle my dog but I think muzzles have been given a bad rap in the general public. I think they are a great tool. If I had a truely DA dog I would have no hesitation using one. The stress of going for a walk and wondering whether a stray or off leash dog would run up to your dog would just dissapear. I think the mere presence of a muzzle would mean that people wouldn't let their "super friendly" untrained boof jump all over your dog!

My dog wouldn't attack and approaching dog. However, I don't let my dogs approach any dogs without asking the owner. My dogs don't fear other dogs but I have trained one to only go to other dogs when I give him the okay. My other dog is still a WIP so she remains on her long leash. In your scenario above, the DA dog is on a leash and might have a whole group of dogs rush up to them. How do you expect them to react?

so she never leaves your property? She never goes to the vet? What should those of us with tiny yards do?

Unfortunately PLP, you can do everything 100% right, but some moron lets their offleash dog run up to yours and then it is all over. If everyone - even those with "perfect" dogs just obeyed the relevants laws then DA dogs wouldn't be such a liability.

I keep Lucy on a lead and always tell people to keep their dogs away (she is fine with most dogs but doesn't like ones that jump on her). Still doesn't stop some people though. On Saturday a guy laughed at me while his GSD jumped all over her (she is a mini schnauzer). I managed to sheild Lucy but Fergus landed up getting hurt - they guy didn't even believe that his dog could hurt another dog. He actually had the nerve to say to me that "German Sheppard's don't eat other dogs" as if my concerns were trivial.

I always physically seperate mine and they are both well mannered and the same size (ie one isn't at a big disadantage if something happened). I would never feed mine together. I know families that have ahd dogs that have lived together for years and then suddenly a brawl errupts over food. Not worth the risk IMO. Dogs should be able to eat their food in peace without the risk of another trying to get it. I don't think supervision would do much good because a fight can errupt before you can even react. The same applies to bedding - they each have their own beds and crates. I also think that the pup needs a seperate play pen or crate where they can get some down time. The GSD may want a bit of peace too!

What is the kelie being fed? Maybe he is trying to make up for some nutritional defficiency?

Yep how ridiculous! I wonder why the owner didn't learn they're lesson the first time and properly secure their dogs! Idiots! Yes - as if a dog can comprehend "I'm in the pound because I escaped. I'll never do that again". Same kind of people who let their dog walk along the streets with no leash - they'll "learn their lesson" when they get hit by a car!

I'm pretty sure that is the law in QLD - they are only required to hold it for 3 days. It is different in different states. It is even worse when you think that some dogs don't get found and picked up by the rangers for a few days or even weeks. Imagine your dog has been lost for 4 weeks and then goes to the pound. You'd need to be checking every 3 days.

those pics made my day :-)

This is where lines must have gotten crossed (re: putting the dog down immediately). The pound has to accept the dog as a stray. They have to hold it for a set number of days. re: Which laws are the same: the laws that dogs need to be handed in to the pound. Holding times vary from state to state. I'm sure one of the rescue groups would know the exact laws depending on state and council. All I know is you have to hand dogs in.

council bylaws. My understanding is that some country pounds are tinya nd don't have the space. Either way, the law is the same.

Joel - this is what Greymate's, my posts and many other posts have said. The law states that the dog must be physically handed into the pound. The only expection to this is when it is a small country town and the pount manager agrees to let someone keep the dog at their house. A shelter is different from a pound. Teh shelter wouldn't want it because legally they aren't allowed to take it until it has served time in the pound. That is why people have been rabbiting on and on about it. The law states that they have to take the dog to the pound, intentions regardless!

I'm pretty sure only commercial breeders need to chip in Vic?

There is no need to shout :-). You will find that a lot of experienced dog owners on this site don't actually have collars on their dogs as they are a strangulation risk (if you have active dgos, exp when you have a pack). Even good owners sometimes have issues and their dogs get out - fences blow down etc.