poodle proud

Hi DW

I don't have any experience in this area but just wanted you to know that I'm praying for you and diesel. I hope you get many more happy times with him.

PP

I had a similar problem with my toy poodle. Before I realised the adult and puppy teeth were the same length and the baby tooth was firmly in there. It was not going anywhere.

Unfortunately my pup was 8.5 months old by this stage and had been desexed at 5.5 months so it was going to mean another anaesthetic and $$$$ all for one little tooth.

Last time middi was groomed the groomer sms'd me to tell me about it. I told here I was aware but it wasnt budging. She said try frozen brisket bones and rough tug games. We did both of these and sent some serious prayers upwards and voila one day during a tug game we notice a tiny bit of blood on a toy, 1 week later the tooth was out.

:D :p

I know this advice came from the groomer but our vet also said try frozen bones. There has been no problems with her gums or the adult teeth either side.

Edited to say that this was a tooth on the upper left side of her jaw it may be a different scenario. It was a last resort for us and it worked. Good luck though!

I have never been so fit as I am now after getting our toy poodle pup. She is a real livewire. It was ok at first because she would go nuts and then sleep for hours. As she got older the energy was the same and the sleeps shorter and shorter.

I realised that I had to drain her of that energy if I wanted any peace and quiet, so now we all get at least an hours walk every day and even then it takes a while for her to tire. Mind you one hour at puppy school and she is gone for the whole day

I am exhausted but she's worth it. We had to take her to the emergency vet recently because she had vomited 14+ times in a couple of hours. They kept her overnight and we all realised how much she had become part of our family. I have so many posts on here about the issues my older dog had with her in the first 6 months. When she was at the vets Osca was so out of sorts and we thought he was getting sick too. All was well when Middi got home and it finally hit us that he had really missed her and finally not only tolerated her but loved her!!

Does he continue to shiver if you cover him with a blanket? My whippets would freeze if they weren't covered.

He stopped about 10 minutes later after I buried him in blankets. So it could just be that he was cold which would be so fine with me. I dont need drama

It was a bit colder yesterday. I think I just got a bit scared. He has had a couple of seizures this year and even though they were an adverse effect from a medication I still get paranoid when he does things out of the ordinary.

Ms Bex,

We got ours off ebay and installed it ourselves. My OH did it and he is not a DIY nut. Just make sure you have the tools they reccomend on the back of the pack. And it is going to depend on what your door is made from. Our back door is fairly hollow and so was not too hard to cut through. But If you are unsure I'd pop down to a hardware store and ask them what you will need to do it. The hardest part was making the initital hole. Once its big enough to get the saw in it seemed to be pretty easy.

It was a staywell door and was only $40 but I cant seem to find them anymore although there are other varieties.

If you have a sliding door you could get one that sits in the sliding door. They can be a couple hundred dollars though.

Hi PP, My pup who is now 19 months old, does exactly the thing you described practically everytime we walk past a house with a dog behind a fence especially if the other dog is barking and carrying on. My other 3 are non reactive if they can only hear a dog behind a fence when on lead, they all just cruize past but not the pup he just starts to cry and whimper like he is petrified, which is so wierd as he has been welll socialized and is very bossy with the rest of my pack. What I usually do to combat it is (sometimes hard if i have all 4 on lead) either keep walking at a brisker pace or if I am able stop get him to sit and focus on me and use the leave it command and then off we go again. This has worked really well but I think the thing with us is we dont do a lot of lead walking we mostly go where they can run off lead, so when we get in these situations it is like he has to learn not to react all over again, which makes it hard. I have also used treats in the same circumstances and I find that works well too, if I am prepared.

What method of training have you used with her? If you are able to take treats with you, take her attention off the agro fence dogs and back onto you and when she is quiet treat her. I also know people who would use a simple collar correction in similar circumstances but personally for a dog that is not being aggressive towards the fence dogs but more frightened a collar correcton I dont think is warranted. Hope this has helped, also consistancy and possibly when you get to a spot where you know she will do it, get to her before it starts with a treat or change of focus. I have walked up and down past a fence with my boy using treats when he is not crying as a reward and he does get it.

Good Luck.

Hi tlc. Thanks for your reply.

I don't know how you manage walking 4 dogs!!

I do walk past briskly but yesterday I took the dogs for separate walks and made her focus on me in one instance and rewarded her with treats. She struggled a bit even with the treats but she got there. Its funny though because we didnt have the onslaught we normally do. So either all the dogs were out to lunch or they werent threatened by her and kept quiet.

I correct her if she pulls on the lead but like you I didnt want to correct her when she wasnt doing anything 'wrong'. I think today I will take them for separate walks again and as you say reward her when she doesnt cry.

Thanks so much for your advice

Dreaming??

I didn't think so. Ive seen him dream. This was sort of constant shaking that started as soon as he closed his eyes. I wouldnt have thought he would dream that quickly.

He seems ok now so who knows?

Thanks Persephone and PandaGirl.

Hi,

I have noticed Osca shivering when he is sleeping, his whole upper body trembles. It seems to start as soon as he falls asleep. If I wake him it seems to stop. I have put his jumper and other things on him in case he was cold.

I read elsewhere on the net that this can be normal during sleep, can occur in small breeds and partiularly in the swf's. Does anyone have info about this?

At 9 months she is in that teenage phase where she can be baby one monent and trying to be grown up the next.... so remember her confidence is not yet fully established and you dont want to shatter her.

You really should avoid bad situations for the time being, or at least to walk wider to the fences where dogs are an issue. Also keep walking and don't dawdle. Ideally if Oscar is having trouble you should avoid walking them together where there are these types of issues. If you have any friends with older and really neutral type dogs who dont react, this would be great to walk with. Your young dog will build confidence with a mature and stable dog.

Thanks alpha bet. This will be hard to do but I could at least move towards the road when I get near these houses. How long would I have to do this for?

Osca is pretty good now but I will try taking her for some quick walks on her own aswell. I dont want her picking up anxiety from him.

If she whimpers do I just ignore her?

Hi all,

Midnight is now 9 months old. She has been well socialised and is generally tough as nails. She is quite a dominant, high energy pup.

I take both dogs on a 45min walk every day. On these walks there are a LOT of dogs in yards that we pass by who go absolutely nuts at my two. As Osca has had some issues with reacting to them I have been working with him so he remains calm when passing them.

This has been going well but now even though Osca is calm midnight has started whimpering and sometimes freezing when we pass these dogs. I don't pander to her or pick her up, I just keep walking confidently until we pass them.

She is generally spooked by a lot more these days which I know is developmental. Is there anything else I should be doing when she does this on walks? I cannot avoid dogs like this as unfortunately there are multiple houses on every street with dogs who behave like this

Any advice would be awesome

Sentinel spectrum does not kill fleas only sterilises the eggs so they don't hatch. It takes a while to take hold but works well in our house.

I use capstar when i see a nasty flea - fast flea killing tablet - kills most fleas in 24hrs, and works within 30 mins - it is sometimes funny watching the suckers just fall off dead

I can't use spot-ons they aggravate my sensitive skinned whippet.

I am planning to try frontline spray this tick season - will also kill fleas

Thats right Neats. You are correct. I'm with you on the frontline although I may try the capstar before then. Now to find frontline spray online that doesnt require re-mortgaging the house.

I havent been to the vet yet because she seems to be completely fine now after sleeping for most of the day. I have a jack russell so maybe this is quite common in smaller dog breeds. Thanks for the advice poodle proud. I might give them a call tomorrow. So what product would you recommend i try next? sentinel spectrum or advantage? I wish i had seen your post before i gave it to her the 2nd time. I just wasnt sure that it was the cause of her reaction at the beginning. So when you went to the vet did he/she give you any medication for your dog? Is it necessary to still take her to the vet?

Hey I am glad she is ok.

Everyone has a different preference for flea and worming products and the area you live in may affect your choice as frontline is renowned for losing its effectiveness in some areas. If fleas is your main problem I would bomb your house first. This was advice I got from the vet as often its us bringing in fleas and not just the dogs.

I have to admit and say that after the seizures I wasnt game enough to use the advantage. I know in my head it is different but I can't do it. Maybe after I research the net about adverse reactions I might try it.

Sentinel spectrum is good but as my vet explained it does not prevent infestation and the fleas only die when they bite as opposed to repelling or being killed on contact. I am not sure how I will go with frontline spray in my area but I will give it a go.

The vet didnt give Osca any medication. Thankfully he was doing much better by the time I got him to the vet. To be honest I was relieved to discover that the advantix was the cause and not underlying epilepsy.

If you are concerned I would ring your vet and tell them what happened and see if they want to see her. The uncontrollable shaking you described is exactly what Osca did during his seizure. I saw him shaking the other day and thought he must have epilepsy. Until I realised he'd just been clipped and was shivering because he was cold

As my vet said when they seize there is not a lot you can do anyway but keep them away from stairs or other dangerous things. She said that when they sieze althought they look frightened they arent actually aware of what is happening which is a bit of a relief.

I know what you mean bout wishing they hadnt got the second dose. I didnt notice anything with the second dose and gave a third so there is a chance Osca had a seizure when I wasnt even there. Talk about feeling terrible!!!!!

Hope you get a good response from Bayer. They were great when I rang them but I agree that perhaps they need to chane their product or at least have a warning label.

I posted a thread about this a couple of months ago. http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?show...amp;hl=advantix

This happened to my white mini poodle Osca. Our vet said he had had a minor seizure. It is possible your dog has reacted to the ingredient permethrin in it which is designed to kill and repel ticks.

I am not sure what breed your dog is but both dol'ers and Bayer (who make advantix) say that small white fluffy dogs tend to be more sensitive to some products.

Contact bayers hotline and tell them what has happened. They will most likely send you some free advantage which is like advantix but no permethrin and a tick collar. This is what they did when I rang them.

I have gone back to using sentinel spectrum all in one wormer and fleas control and may start using some frontline spray for the ticks in the summer.

Hope your dog is ok, I know how terrifying it is. We didnt join the dots until the second time we had seen it

You were just using a product that you thought would be the best for your dog. You werent to know this would happen so don't feel bad. Osca is fine now and no more seizures.

It didnt seem to matter what time we went to bednight, Midnight was always up at 5 or 5:30. This lasted several months but gradually she has gotten better and gets to almost 7 every day. It was so tiring getting up at 5 plus one toilet trip in the night, like having a baby!

So sorry to hear Slushie. to you

I had to force the tablets down their throat. They actually ate the chew HAPPILY!!! I was skeptical +++ I'm happy to be wrong.

I have had a lot of patients ask if they could use this after extractions and the surgeons always said yes. While I am not against homeopathic remedies I probably wouldnt choose them over pharmaceuticals and I wouldn't be game to give them to my dog. Simply because I don't know enough about them. I know Arnica is ok but there are quite a few natural remedies that can actually increase bleeding post-op. How do you know what doseage to give?

I don't understand homeopathic remedies myself. The remedy I gave to my dog was given to me by a holistic veterinarian. I don't know how dosage of homeopathic remedies is determined, but I don't think it's by age or according to weight. In any event the dose given to my (27/28kg) 14 years old dog is Arnica 30C. Either it worked or she didn't need pain relief anyway.

Fair enough. Some people swear by it. When I said patients ask if they can use it really they tell the surgeon they are going to use it and make it sound like a question Must be good stuff to be so insistent on it. Glad your dog was ok.

Tie the flap up out of the way for a few days

I second what poodlefan says. We did this with midnight and she got the hang of it within a week or so. Then we just left the flap down and it was no problem.

Osca got the hang of the dog door within 20 minutes but he was an adult well and truly by this time. Puppies seem to get spooked easier and take more encouragement.

Good luck.

Osca is a cuddlebug and is quite happy to lie down with me after a night duty for hours even if he has been asleep all night with OH.

Midnight is not like this. Sometime she comes for cuddles or will curl at my feet but at other times she would rather be alone. I found her sleeping on the kitchen lino last night while osca was glued to my back.

I feel this is much to do with who they are and we just have to enjoy the cuddles when she feels like giving them. But OH often tries to cuddle her when she clearly doesnt want to be cuddled and then wonders why she tries to get away.

Cesar Millan addresses this issue several times in the season two episodes if you are interested.

All she had for pain relief was homeopathic arnica given twice daily from the day before surgery to the day afterwards (both days inclusive). Had there been any indication at all that she needed something stronger then it was easy enough to quickly obtain it for her, but she didn't.

I have had a lot of patients ask if they could use this after extractions and the surgeons always said yes. While I am not against homeopathic remedies I probably wouldnt choose them over pharmaceuticals and I wouldn't be game to give them to my dog. Simply because I don't know enough about them. I know Arnica is ok but there are quite a few natural remedies that can actually increase bleeding post-op. How do you know what doseage to give?

I try to be quite pro-active about providing pain relief and managing post op pain. I work on the principle that if I think it is likely to hurt, then my patient gets whatever pain relief I feel is appropriate while it is under my care. I don't agree with using pain as means of preventing movement or activity, others might but I don't feel that it is productive. Pain is stress, stress is not beneficial.

Such a shame you arent in Brisbane Rappie

At uni they showed us a survey someone had done, where different vets had been asked to estimate the amount of pain an animal would typically be in after certain surgical operations (laparotomy, castration, spay, etc). The study found that female veterinarians, as well as more recent graduates/younger vets, tended to estimate the animal's pain as higher for almost every procedure, and were more likely to give the animal pain relief after surgical procedures, than male or older vets were.

I though it was interesting.

Me too. I think there is that stereotype that women are more empathetic which in some cases is probably true. OH loves the dogs but would usually err on the side of "she'll be right" when it comes to their level of comfort. But when I brought Osca home OH said "why didnt he get any pain relief? They should try having 4 teeth out with no pain relief" He then proceeded to fuss over him and talk to him in a baby voice. I almost fell off my chair from shock

I just want to comment, i had 4 teeth removed when i was about 15, they gave me an injection to numb me, pulled the teeth out, and sent me home, i didnt take any pain killers either..

The younger a person is when they have extractions the easier the teeth are to remove, less swelling, bleeding, potential complications and the less pain relief they need. The most amazing patient I looked after was a 12 year old kid who had 4 teeth out and was back at school the next day :D

A bit of this could be contributed to the affects of GA in his system.

Totally understand this concept and so I wasnt too concerned about him for the first day as I knew this was normal.

The difference being that with us, we can take pain relief but still be aware (because we're told) that we need to be careful with what we do/eat etc. etc. Animals can't have that explained to them, so for them some pain or discomfort is necessary. Can you imagine dogs who are into (eg) stick chewing or even having a good munch on bones (which they might retrieve from some forgotten hole that's been buried over) with an open wound in their mouth?

This was the reasoning of the vet nurse when I inquired about it initially which I understand but as I said in a previous post Osca is not like this. He doesnt play with toys. He doesnt eat anything random like sticks rocks etc, he doesnt mouthe me and so I wasn't worried about him not protecting the area as I was present and controlling what he ate.

I realise this is unusual behaviour for a dog but he has been this way since we got him from his previous owners. That's where I thought my knowledge of him could have made some difference to the plan of care. Had it been midnight having had the op I would have totally agreed. It was so hard keeping her quiet after she was spayed. Osca has keeping quiet down to a fine art

I think what everyone's responses are highlighting is that everyone is different and this can apply to our dogs. I have recovered hundreds and hundreds of people having wisdom teeth out and other oral surgery under a general and the differences in pain tolerance for them were astounding. Most needed some pain releif, a rare few didnt. And as you said Erny this is affected by the complexity of cases and any complications.

When we brought Osca home we put him on the bed and there he stayed for 95% of the next couple of days (And the bed is where he sleeps anyway so not a novelty worth exploiting). If he was milking it he would have come and pawed at me for attention like he does every other day of the week . He was offered some chicken mince but wasnt even interested in that for a couple of days. I'm sure as Staff'n'Toller said he did take it very personally but I don't doubt he was also in pain.

I guess what I was wanting to know from the post was whether it was totally unreasonable to want pain relief for him and I know now it wasn't. I understand a lot of dogs may be fine without it but looking back I think he would have been a lot more comfortable with it. I love my vet and can't fault them in his care but I will trust my gut about it next time. If it's only me being a bit out of pocket then I don't see the harm in getting it.

Has he coped without it? yes. But all the posts on DOL are evidence that we don't just give our furry friends the bare minimum. If we did there wouldnt be so many debates about the 'best' dog food

Thanks for the replies and well wishes.

They probably would have given me something if I had pressed the issue but I felt like an overly worried parent and thought that if they didnt think it was necessary maybe I was wrong.

They had told me when I booked him in that if you give pain relief to a dog they might do stupid things because they feel ok and hurt themselves more. I understand this can happen but as I explained to them Osca is not like this. He doesnt really play with toys or chew anything other than food so the chances of him damaging where the teeth had been removed were remote.

puggy_puggy:

With regard to pain receptors, that is the kind of thing I was wondering about. If they have less pain receptors they wouldnt need pain relief as much which make sense and would justify him not having any. But I wonder even with less receptors whether in some cases it may still be appropriate for some dogs.

Could he be milking it for all its worth? Quite possibly . He is a sook at the best of times and I doubt his threshold for discomfort is very high. That said I have never seen him so miserable for so long since we got him. I had to really push him to go outside to the toilet, he wouldnt drink water, and he hardly moved for the first 48 hours.

I know the anaesthetic needed to wear off but after that he was still miserable. And as he is getting progressively better each day I am inclined to believe it is becoming less uncomfortable/painful which is what happens after any surgery major or minor.

It may not be standard practice to offer it but if it is enquired about the option should be to take it of you want and if you don't use it then great. Its too late after the surgery has shut to suddenly decide you want it without footing a massive after hours bill.

JulesLuvsCavs: Hope Joey goes okay!