SmoothieGirl

thanks guys!! I know the lady who sells the Royales - at least i think she does she had rotties and her car has stickers for the crates?? dont know ... oh well ill contact her and see where she si for pick up :D:)

Yep Kirst you do know her, probably through herding or on the show scene. Dyzney (dol name) owns K9 Soft Crate and lives down the Mornington Pennisula way.

I have one for Bronte (Royale2) and its excellent! Great quality and all the features you could ever wish for, including being idiot proof to set up and pack away - I'm a living testament to that. I'm very close to ordering one for Ren too.

For Cindy:

CD title

For me:

stop panicing when 1 thing goes wrong in training

establish good training routine that we both enjoy

FAILED!!!!

You can't leaves us with that Sue, what happened?

For me its 'no legs' because they can have a tendency to grab each others legs and walk away or pull which can risk putting the other dogs leg at a funny angle and having them over balance, risking leg injuries. Skin around faces tends to be a bit loose and so they tend not to hurt, but watch ears.

If you think Keba is getting welts, then stop the play earlier or try to redirect them to a toy.

I have tried to teach 'gentle' but found it hard for them to interpret, so instead I just redirect or time out. They are currently eating there own chews on a time out as things got a little manic. Bring the chews out and they both found their own spots and now I have quiet time, but still very happy doggies.

Sounds like you are doing the right things.

If puppy is only a couple of days from getting the stitches out you should be fine, but perhaps limit the play a bit more.

45 - 90 mins will depend upon if they are being manic or not. If they are playing tug or just bumbling around the place together with some silly play that's ok, but that much full on silly play is probably too much.

My two play 'bitey face' lots of teeth flashing, waggy tails and wet dogs. Trust me if one of them bites too hard you'll know it, they will tell the other one. At this point I instigate a time out as well as it tends to happen when Ren is getting tired and a bit OTT. Got to say I'm finding it excellent bite inhabition training, Ren has never really tried to mouth me, he leaves all of that play for Bronte.

Don't call them more than once! Repetitive name calling during a recall is one of the worst things we can do with our dogs - it makes them immune to something we want them to instantly react too. Call one of them, if he/she doesn't respond go and grab the collar, put the treat near their nose and lure them back to where you called them from (well within reason). Unless your older dog has an exceptional recall, in which case I would just be grabbing the collar and recalling them without the treat - no treat for bad behaviour. I play more recall games than anything as I want excellent recall on my dogs, but its always an exciting game for them. Don't forget to jackpot really fast responses and returns to you, a few treats rather than one, just keep them really small in size. Its the receipt of a treat and the value of the treat, not the size of a treat that dogs love.

Already I can take my two to a local oval and let my older dog off for a run, keeping Ren on a 10 metre long line. I let them play and Ren will instantly recall to me for a treat. We play this a lot, but this is after a lot of at home training - same game but off lead. Have treats on you or at hand ALL the time and just for the hell of it, unless they are asleep or eating of course, play a recall game. Call ONCE and treat or if you need to lure him to you then treat. Find something he goes nuts for, their dry food generally isn't great for this. Faves in this house are roast chicken, Happy Paws treats and liver treats.

I'd leave the leads off at home too, I worry about legs and leads. I'm pretty careful with my long line when out, but its a nice soft one (Black Dog) and I tend to recall them quite often so I can also untangle any bits I don't like.

Another idea - if they are playing lots of bitey face and it looks to be getting a bit silly a loud couple of hand claps can get their attention on you and allow them to change the game to something else. I don't tolerate mouths on legs either and will intervene at that point, even if only to give them a 'no legs' and seperate with collars (or scruffs as mine don't wear collars at home) and let them play again. Also rotate their toys every 3 days or so, include lots of interactive tug toys, toys with noises etc, this may encourage to play more toy sharing games rather than just with each others bodies.

Look for a few things:

Is the older dog looking for a break?

Is the play starting to get a little too silly? Often a sign that puppy is over tired - bit like kids.

Depending upon what time of day it is, if they've eaten etc, the time may vary, but I probably wouldn't let them play for more than about 90mins max at that age - assuming that its not all crazy play. If its fast and furious, I'd probably start thinking a time out is required at 45mins.

Also if you have the time, make it not always about the two of them, thrown some off lead training into the mix for both of them. I love getting my two to do side by side sits, drops and mini sit stays. Then they are released for more play, but this stage their adrenalin is somewhat reduced and they will play calmly again for a while. The key to training together is a bit of hand co-ordination (treats in both hands - one hand for each dog), insistence that the older dog does nothing less that what you would expect if it was individual training and yummy yummy treats and lots of them.

As for breaking them up, call them to you and simply pop on a lead, take to pen and put him in it with a toy or two or a chew treat.

* Don't always take him away when you call them though, perhaps call them over 4-5 times while they are playing, put the lead on treat and then release again. You don't want puppy to associate being called with the end of a game as he may just stop coming to you at some point. Putting him away with a treat or toy though should be a nice experience for him.

Personally I would almost always wait until my older dogs are 18 mths or older before I introduce a new pup, its ensures their training is really well established and they have moved far away from their teen troubles so are less easily influenced by puppy hi-jinx.

The timing of Ren was just perfect. I got the pup I wanted, from my chosen bitch and luckily it all landed that he came home at exactly the time of year I wanted. This meant Bronte was nearly 2 when he came home. Collies are fast maturing though, so they are probably easier to mix with pups. I always say that Bronte was never a puppy, she was born with an adult attitude, but that may be down to our constant involvement in training for dog sports of some kind.

She plays a lot more now that Ren is in the household and her hearing is a bit more selective than before he arrived, other than that she hasn't really changed much. He has learnt many subtle house rules from observing and copying her, which has been very useful. I'm not sure that a teenage pup would have that level of influence over a baby pup though, it may actually regress their training a bit if they feed off each other.

Given the breed though I don't imagine you will have any huge issues, but you'll have to be prepared to control the mania though, there are definitely periods of that, but that's why we love them.

Edit - Ren showed early signs of resource guarding his food not from me, but from Bronte. I quickly got some advice from my trainer and now I have two dogs that are fed next to each other happily, with rules about when they can approach their bowls and each other. They also behave nicely when they have chew treats, although this is something I will continue to supervise until he has fully matured.

Thanks for all the replies we have finally made a decision and it was not easy.

So his name is..........................................................

....

REBUS

:p YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh Janba that's very disappointing, but better you know now.

Oh Rebus, Rebus, Rebus!! His face is quite clearly a Rebus. What a fluff ball, but boy will he grow fast.

Looking forward to more puppy pics soon from the new ones home this week.

Ok, last post in this thread for the night...here's Ren today @ 13 weeks, with his BFF.

He fits into the household so well and has picked up so many slight household rules already, as well as responding very well to his formal training.

Huga, it looks like Sid has it all in hand. Bet you are pleased with him.

Bjelkier - stunning expression!! good luck with him

visiting the babies this week they are 3 weeks old now :D very excited!

Looking forward to an update Kirst.

Our new boy Dante

Sooooooooo sweet. What a beautiful puppy, congratulations!

Maybe scrap the idea of the off leash area before and after training and just do the class, that's really where the benefit will be anyway. Then, like you already appear to be, have controlled off leash play with dogs you know and trust and keep the numbers small too. Large numbers of dogs off leash can work but its naturally a more highly charged situation.

I love Comfortis, but I say that for different reasons. Bronte can't have topical flea treatments on her skin so we go the tablet way. Apart from when she was a baby puppy, she has never had fleas. I know the dog next door has them, we think their cat is bringing them home - thank goodness for my cat net, it keeps her out and mine in.

Maybe dose with Capstar to kill them off and then onto Comfortis.

Oh, she's also on Interceptor as it doesn't contain any 'mectins' that Collies can be sensitive too. No problems with either of them.

My bitch got Pneumonia on top of KC when she was about 14 months old. She spent the night in emergency with a very high temp and elevated respiratory rate, I rushed her in at about 1am. Fortunately she responded well to the antibotics, fluids etc and came home the next day about 3pm. The vets were quite insistent about her staying overnight given her temperature though, they were worried about it going even higher. To be honest considering her respiratory rate I wouldn't have been comfortable taking her home, I would have just sat there and watched every breath.

Are you in a position to go back to the vet and perhaps have the antibiotics checked/changed?

I hope your girl responds soon and picks up quickly and she has no more of this

Only a few days til Lynn Leach's clinics start! I am so excited Got a list of questions a mile long

This is the woman that really changed how I thought about herding - she is a wonderful teacher.

Anyone else going? I will be there the whole time :D

See you in the last weekend Hannah. I'm camping with my two, should be interesting with three of us in the tent, especially with babycakes, he hasn't even seen the tent yet, but he's a pretty chilled character.

If you are worried about the rate she is hoovering her kibble, and I would be because Dobes are deep chested, then soak her kibble before you feed her. My pup inhales his meals and always has his kibble soaked.

My first Dobe was a very delicate and quite a fussy eater, but bones were no worries. Maybe its a case of too much variety too soon, perhaps pick one thing out of the ordinary and stick with that for a week, then try something different. That lightly frying idea sounds great too.

Doh! And then I reread it and see she's not a gulper, so my post is now defunct.

Good luck.

Terrible news, its so hard to let them go, but what a happy full life you gave him.

Hope you are ok and hugs to you.

Oh Jakemon, now I've seen her with sheep I want her all the more. Great to start her so early, especialy with an ACD, she'll be able to develop the softness she needs for them, learning to control her natural herding hardness which she would ordinarily need for cattle.

Just pop some breathing holes in the Australia Post parcel for her and mail her down to me any day now.

Rebus!!!!!!!! - nice name and a little unusual. I like the other names too, however I do instantly think of a Golden Retriever when I see the name Murphy - not sure why.

One sleep!

Off to buy dog food this morning

We need a like button. Good luck Huga, don't forget the photos.

Try offering him another more interesting scent - food. Find a treat he values and lure him away from the scent, stick the treat near he end of his nose, get him and moving and reward. You can then add a cue word to this, I use either leave ot this way, depending upon the situation snd what I want from puppy or dog.

Bronte eats a particular type of large beetle (they make a funny squeaking noise when alarmed), but she turns them into a crunchy meal so I'm pretty sure those guys never have a chance of a second life.

I'd avoid Max, its a good name, but there are so many dogs called Max these days you're likely to call the name and get five at your feet.

I can highly recommend giving your preferred names a big yell out to try it out for style (in the privacy of your own home of course).

I was seriously considering calling Ren, Blair. Then I did the shout out and realised that when said loud, it can sound like Blah. Given that herding is one of my dog sports I decided the last thing I wanted was for the herding judges and spectators splitting their sides with laughter as I call 'Blah, Blah, get round' or some other command. They would think I've gone mental. Shame, I still really like the name, maybe for a later dog that would be doing so much distance work.

Oh come on J, you have to put that running/flying Tess on a T Shirt, you simply have to.