Agility Dogs

I would hate to see kelpies go the way of BCs with working, show and performance lines

I'd be hesitant to suggest that Kelpie's aren't also on this slope - there is already a massive difference between working Kelpies and bench Kelpies. They just haven't become popular with performance people......not to say they aren't great agility dogs, just that they aren't as popular as BC's seem to have become.

Leaving the course or stopping the dog is a bandaid. It will not fix the problem & can easily reduce drive

IMO it is never related to herding instinct

If anything herding instinct tends to be more about running around obstacles and flanking from the handler under arousal.

I would just call that either bad handling or poor foundations and subsequent poor understanding by the dog. Running around a jump has nothing to do with herding instinct. I have never seen a dog attempt to cast out around an inanimate object to bring it back to the handler. Equipment doesn't act like stock and no dog would be confused between the 2.

Instincts get blamed for so many errors and as a result, the real reason is never addressed. The furthest I would ever venture to say that instincts play a part in is working dogs find curves easier to read and gundogs find straight lines easier to read. Even that is stretching things a bit.

I'm not suggesting that dogs confuse stock and equipment - I'm just saying that dogs that work wide on stock DO tend to run wide at agility. They naturally want to work away from their handler.

My young boy is from a driving line - he is very direct and doesn't cast out away from me. Maria Thiry's Kwyk runs out (not away) from her all the time - very different breeding.

I don't consider that instinct though. That is just how the individual dog responds to pressure. We have a terrier who prefers to work further away and one that likes to be super close. Would you still refer to it as instinct in a non-working breed? Dogs all respond to pressure differently, and yes that can relate to their breeding purpose and lines. It isn't instinct though.

I think it is how they are wired - so yes. I think it is instinct. 'They instinctively react to pressure that way.'

it's the only aspect of instinct I see transfer from one activity to the other.

Yes. :)

Leaving the course or stopping the dog is a bandaid. It will not fix the problem & can easily reduce drive

IMO it is never related to herding instinct

If anything herding instinct tends to be more about running around obstacles and flanking from the handler under arousal.

I would just call that either bad handling or poor foundations and subsequent poor understanding by the dog. Running around a jump has nothing to do with herding instinct. I have never seen a dog attempt to cast out around an inanimate object to bring it back to the handler. Equipment doesn't act like stock and no dog would be confused between the 2.

Instincts get blamed for so many errors and as a result, the real reason is never addressed. The furthest I would ever venture to say that instincts play a part in is working dogs find curves easier to read and gundogs find straight lines easier to read. Even that is stretching things a bit.

I'm not suggesting that dogs confuse stock and equipment - I'm just saying that dogs that work wide on stock DO tend to run wide at agility. They naturally want to work away from their handler.

My young boy is from a driving line - he is very direct and doesn't cast out away from me. Maria Thiry's Kwyk runs out (not away) from her all the time - very different breeding.

Leaving the course or stopping the dog is a bandaid. It will not fix the problem & can easily reduce drive

IMO it is never related to herding instinct

If anything herding instinct tends to be more about running around obstacles and flanking from the handler under arousal.

Answering your question: the Shape Up courses are all being rehashed with Justine and Jessica having new puppies, so it's hard to comment. Their foundation course I did presumed a level of foundation skills already. H360 is unbelievably comprehensive - there is so much detail. However, I find it all a little overwhelming, and I'm really not using the course much at all. Even when I was having issues with my threadles, I signed up to do a Q-Me course which was much more focussed and had specific feedback, as opposed to wading through so much info on H360.

Dave Munnings keeps it pretty simple - much easier for a normal (or lazy like me) dog trainer to work with. ;)

If the dogs are trained in the foundations from day dog it's not that hard. This is my boy at 13 months - he had never seen more than 5 obstacles in sequence before this seminar.

Not nearly where the dogs in the other video are, but it shows what you can get pretty quickly. The dogs LOVE the verbals and pick them up really quickly - even the cross over dogs.

Incidentally, I have been observing working dogs on sheep all year for work, and I am becoming increasingly disbelieving of this assertion I hear all the time that good dogs won't bite sheep. Hmmm. But any that are working off the farm will be muzzled, and having seen what they do when they get excited, that seems warranted to me. Some are good at generating excitement when no one is looking. Cheeky beggars!

This is why my boy won't see sheep again. He is from incredible lines, has more instinct than I would ever know what to do with, but isn't afraid of biting either. I just don't have the time/ability/inclination to train that out of him.

Unfortunately the ability to work tirelessly and without getting discouraged doesn't always come without a few little quirks. LOL.

For me the original purpose itself (herding sheep) is really not that relevant. I can't spend the time to develop my dogs' herding instincts so really they aren't relevant.

What is relevant to me though is the drive and desire that working dogs have, so is the ability to work with their handler. So I guess they are incredibly important.

That said, most border collie owners I know would be so totally out of their depth with a full on working dog that it would be criminal to give them one. I think that for the most part the compromise between a dog bred for show with sound structure, a nice temperament and some degree of work a really good thing.

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I have trained "push" to go to the dark side, because I learnt backsides when they were called "push throughs"...why they were called that I have no idea...should have been called "push behinds"

Pretty sure that they were push throughs because they were always set up like a serpentine line, but were numbered the other way. Push to the backs really only have become a thing in the last few years from what I can see. (And we still don't see that many of them in our courses IMO - not a bad thing either.)

Ahhh....there you go...I have finally found out why they called them "push throughs" :)

Of course, I could be wrong, but it kind of makes sense.

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I have trained "push" to go to the dark side, because I learnt backsides when they were called "push throughs"...why they were called that I have no idea...should have been called "push behinds"

Pretty sure that they were push throughs because they were always set up like a serpentine line, but were numbered the other way. Push to the backs really only have become a thing in the last few years from what I can see. (And we still don't see that many of them in our courses IMO - not a bad thing either.)

I don't want to use/think "back side" of jump - because "back" is a command I use to get my dog to back up... If I think "back side" - that's what will come out of my mouth.

And the judge may not like you running around a course talking about backsides. ;)

Yeah - I think what you are seeing is her pulling the dog off the obvious side of the jump and then going around to take the back, rather than a push to the back so to speak.

There are so many semantics in this and she's changing what she's doing all the time as well - still very much evolving which is hard for us when everything was static for so long.

c'arn used to mean "come between the jumps and flick" but it's modified now to take the dark side...

Do you mean you've modified it?

For SG it still means, don't take the obvious side of the jump/tunnel entry, come to me and then flick away to take the obstacle. That might mean going around the back if you are out of position, but typically it means come off the face or away from the obvious tunnel entry and take the other side. As opposed to go around the back.

My problem was that Nitro was barking and bouncing when I left him in a stationary position and when I was sending him to do an obstacle, so he wasn't sure if he was supposed to be staying in/following RZ or not.

So I worked RZ cue and release from RZ to a treat, and sit in RZ, I take a step and cue RZ. (my RZ is not anywhere near as pretty as SG's :laugh: )

Value for obstacles and crate. Including verbals.

When in RZ in front of crate or obstacle, I then wait for FF to release to crate or obstacle. This is what was giving me grief before I did this remedial training, and where he would bark and bounce.

Also important that the dogs understand accel and decel cues - accel gives them the permission to blast past/out of RZ. Decel, not so much. ie: If I'm running I want my dogs to run past me and keep on going until I slow. If I'm slowing I want them to come into Reinforcement Zone. Can't have too much accel, but can have WAY too little decel.

I just wouldn't worry about the other owners reaction, he may have all sorts of reasons for being worried about other dogs including prior experiences or general nervousness but at the end of the day he was the one breaking the law.

I would just concentrate on your dog's behaviour for your own sake, even if he is just friendly now that kind of frustration can become a problem, so I would work on self control and social skills with him, and getting him to look to you for guidance in those kind of situations.

THis. My young boy can get over excited so I completely ignore the other dogs and focus on him focussing on me.

Other people are less likely to worry about what you are doing if you are totally into it and not worrying about what they are doing. ;)

have no manners

So.......why did you have to bring my dog into this......

We've got 4BC's. All have a pretty good recall.- 2 were hard wired that way 2 have taken a fair bit of work. I like the article. :)

Couldn't agree more with what a number have said. I'd love for good breeders to make a little for their effort.

For me - the last thing I ask is how much a dog is going to cost (purchase price). If everything else stacks up then a few hundred dollars either way is NOTHING compared to the costs of owning a dog for their life time.

I get what you are saying, but I also see the other side of it. When we had our young dog Euth'd about 9 years ago I just couldn't bear to stay. In hind sight it is a regret, but at that moment I just couldn't bring myself to stay with him.

I don't think any of our current 4 will be alone when the time comes, but I will never say never either.

A friend with a reactive Rottie has worked with Jane Harper and was very impressed. I read over the notes she gave him and really liked what she put together.

Good luck with helping your pup! She is very lucky to have you. :)

Can any one recommend a border collie breeder?

And also what is the price range of puppies?

I don't want to breed just do sport and may be interested in showing in the neuter class.

I have owned one border before she was nearly 16 when I had to put her to sleep.

Looking for a black and white puppy and I need a dog with a very good stable temperament.

Everyone has a different view on what makes a 'good' BC breeder and what a stable temperament is. I'd say that my younger two both have great temperaments, but they are TOTALLY different. One would fit into just about any home and is so chilled that sometimes I wonder if she is a BC. (clearly she is, but.....) Then the other is a complete maniac - totally bomb proof and incredibly trainable, but such high drive that not many people would cope with him.

While price is important it's probably best to make sure that you are comfortable with the breeder and their dogs - a couple of hundred dollars either way is nothing when you think about how long you have to live with your dog for. ;)

There are quite a few breeders with nice dogs in SA. Might be worth having a look in the breed pages on here and then starting a conversation with a few of them. Something to remember - a shiny website and good sales pitch are not always a good indicator of good dogs.

I agree with the others that dogs with aggression issues shouldn't be placed in an environment where they can do damage to others and themselves - muzzled or otherwise.

I do think the muzzles could be really useful to work with the dogs in an environment that is less stimulating than competition training, but perhaps more so than obedience. At our club we've split the classes so that we have one night for dogs titled in agility and another night where dogs can work in a less stimulating environment on their foundations. It works really well and helps owners with focus issues work through that as well.

Our club has adopted a one strike and you're out policy for the triallers class. They then go back to an on lead status in foundations. It's worked really well for the owners who have taken it on board and worked with it rather than throwing their toys out of the cot and leaving.

Either way I think it's great the committee are starting to think about how to manage classes a bit better. :)

I love taking our boy to the dog park, but I can see why some people don't. He is a goofball who loves everything and everyone. He can be a jerk to other dogs at the moment (he's starting to mount dogs a bit) but I've found other dogs are mostly good at warning him to get off and stop being a brat without hurting him. There are good parks and bad parks though. I find it weird how parks can get a 'reputation' but that's just how it is.

For us it's essential to take him, because it's hard to give him a good run without some other dogs there...he's not super into fetch, but if another dog is playing, he'll chase the dog! Or he'll herd the SWFs, although not so much anymore because he's too big for the small dog areas.

Oh my......sorry, but with the others. This is why I don't go near them.

People who think that their 'friendly dog' is OK - this is just rude behaviour that some dogs won't tolerate and when they give a pup a good telling off (like really mean it so it doesn't happen again - not put holes in the other dog) some owners seem to feel their little darling has been hardly done by.

Easier just to stay away and find other ways to exercise the dogs.

I'd probably do both with a tight cue.

For me the first one is just a K Turn.

The second one I think is overly complicated. It could be done with the same K turn as the first, but then with a wit wit/here here whatever to bring them around that jump. The way she does it in the video is a bit messy for me.

That's the cool thing though - everyone is trying different stuff. :)

It's one of those lowest common denominator - common sense is not that common. We've got 4 dogs. 2 I'd take, 2 I wouldn't - if they were allowed. Sadly, not everyone is dog savvy and not everyone has the smarts to know that not every dog is suited to every environment and that it's not other people who should have to tolerate our dogs while they gain their social skills.

I'm looking for recommendations for a club to train at with my Brittany, she needs basic obedience but I'm also looking into sporting with her so clubs that have a bit of a focus on both would be great!

Lockyer Valley Dog training Club is based at Laidley (or that's where their trials are). I'm not sure of their set up, but they are an obedience club and they do agility.

Agility Dog Club of Qld is at Ipswich. They do a basic obedience course and then the focus (as the name suggests) is on agility. I can highly recommend them.

Have fun!!