raineth

Thanks, silentchild :) I'll look all those up. I'll see if I can find the booklet. I've only just started looking into it all so it's possible I just haven't come across it yet :)

I also have to work out how we could get it to work in a group setting.

Breeze has the Novice Trick Dog title, working towards Intermediate (have just been a bit lazy in filming it!), and I certainly didn't have to buy any of her books?

I enjoy tricks and also agree anything that promotes positive dog owner interaction is ok in my books. :)

It's under 'witness instructions' in the booklet:

WITNESS INSTRUCTIONS

Read trick criteria specified in one of these books by Kyra Sundance.

0AGE NUMBERS ARE LISTED ON THIS FORM NEXT TO EACH TRICK

My witness was their certified instructor so you don't have to buy the books, you can just use their instructors.

The tricks are pretty self-explanatory so I don't think you really need it.

Edit: They can't police whether or not your witness owns the book or not anyway??

Oh ok, so you sent the certified instructor your videos of you and Breeze doing the tricks? Or do you happen to have one locally?

I don't find that all the tricks are self-explanatory, but I haven't googled any of them yet. Like 'Pedestal' and 'Volleyball' I could take a guess at what they mean, but I'd rather know exactly. It seems a bit dodgy otherwise :)

What kind of things do they teach you?

Check out this pdf Thistle http://domorewithyourdog.com/downloads/trickdogtitle.pdf

It outlines all the tricks.

I thought it might be a good way for some of the people in our club to learn shaping. Many of the people at club only use luring to teach their dog new behaviours :) As well I just think that teaching tricks might motivate members who aren't interested in formal obedience and agility etc.

Breeze has the Novice Trick Dog title, working towards Intermediate (have just been a bit lazy in filming it!), and I certainly didn't have to buy any of her books?

I enjoy tricks and also agree anything that promotes positive dog owner interaction is ok in my books. :)

It's under 'witness instructions' in the booklet:

WITNESS INSTRUCTIONS

Read trick criteria specified in one of these books by Kyra Sundance.

0AGE NUMBERS ARE LISTED ON THIS FORM NEXT TO EACH TRICK

I haven't any experience of the course. Anything that encourages positive interaction between dog and owner is definitely a thumbs up from me. Not that I'd do it mind you but I'm not your average owner I guess and my lot do tricks as part of body awareness for agility anyway. My puppy classes LOVE getting their certificate and I know a few get framed and put on the wall.

Yes, that's why I like the idea too :)

I am just interested in people's thoughts on the trick dog title?

I have had a quick look at it, and one of my first thoughts is that it is a bit of a money-spinner for the lady who runs it. Mainly because it seems like you have to buy her books that describe the criteria for the tricks described. But I suppose if she's gone to the effort of setting it up, it should be ok for her to make some money out of it.

What I like about it:

It provides a framework for training.

It might be good for those not interested, or unable to go to other trials, but still want a training challenge.

I also like how you can pick and choose the tricks that suit you and your dog.

The titles show recognition for the work you put in.

I am thinking it could be a good thing to introduce to our club, especially among the members that are not so interested in trialing. It might be quite a fun way to get them enthused about training, and to motivate them to have a go at shaping etc.

So has anyone here done them? Do you think they're worthwhile, or a bit of a waste of money?

link is here for anyone interested http://domorewithyourdog.com/pages/trickdogtitle.html

"Reality: The vast majority of Positive Dog Trainers use no more positive reinforcement than other trainers in their training and use just as much positive punishment in their training. The use of positive punishment is not occasional or rarely."

What a bizarre statement. How does he know what 'the vast majority of Positive Dog Trainers' do?

Admittedly I have not sat through the video...

What is most important to understand about positive punishment is that classical conditioning is always co-occurring with operant conditioning. Ethics aside, in most situations you don't want your dog associating you or the context with something unpleasant.

Of the three pugs I know who've gone into respiratory distress (two of which died from it) all of them were pedigree dogs, and all were ex show dogs.

Have you got a food dryer Scottsmum? I have made chewy/slightly flexible treats with the food dryer using beef heart.

If you don't mind treats that need to be kept refrigerated and used in a few days then you can make very cheap (and delicious- to the dog) treats using offal. Chicken hearts and lamb hearts I boil (and let Del have the broth). Lamb liver, chicken livers, and beef hearts I bake at a low-ish temperature (150) for about an hour to an hour and a half. These make soft treats that still hold their shape well and don't leave much residue on your hands.

No - no dryer.

I was buying a fish jerky for a while which needed to be kept in the fridge....

I bet that would've produced a nice aroma every time you opened your fridge :laugh:

I have also made fishy treats. I use tins of sardines and salmon and blend them in the food processor with eggs and gluten free plain flour. I use Gluten Free flour as my husband has coeliacs and it's the only flour we have in the house. You could probably use any flour, even something like Besan flour (which would keep it grain free) and it would turn out ok.

I can't give you exact quantities. I just add flour until the mixture is like a very thick cake batter. Then I bake in the oven.

Have you got a food dryer Scottsmum? I have made chewy/slightly flexible treats with the food dryer using beef heart.

If you don't mind treats that need to be kept refrigerated and used in a few days then you can make very cheap (and delicious- to the dog) treats using offal. Chicken hearts and lamb hearts I boil (and let Del have the broth). Lamb liver, chicken livers, and beef hearts I bake at a low-ish temperature (150) for about an hour to an hour and a half. These make soft treats that still hold their shape well and don't leave much residue on your hands.

Del digs the holes and puts the bone/toy/socks in it but never bothers to cover over it :laugh:

I like Secret and the whole story that goes along with it :)

Fingers crossed she can go to her normal vet today, and that she doesn't have pneumonia.

Sorry that your partner is making a hard time even harder too

So sorry for you and your lovely dog. I went through this last week with a friend although her dog had an open Pyro. The dog after a rather shaky start has now returned home.

I think this may serve as a warning to all those that have entire but non breeding bitches to think about having them de sexed as soon as possible, so, as to not have to go through all this with them. It is very costly and dreadful experience for the dog let alone in many cases may be fatal.

...do some reading first - you may trade one disease for another, and bone cancer, hypothyroidism, hemangiosarcoma (5 times higher risk!!!) etc. etc. is not a pleasant experience either.

Yes what would Oakway know? She's just an experienced breeder.

Pyometra has an incidence of 25% before the age of ten years in non-spayed females. While I understand there are reasons to keep bitches entire, 25% is fairly high odds to be playing with especially when you have no intentions of breeding.

Gosh that sounds so terrible Latoya I wish her a full recovery.

When my dog was spayed at 15 months the vet found she had the beginnings of Pyo. She was in the midst of phantom pregnancy and it was just so luck that she had been booked in to be spayed when she was.

I'm an expert in dog behaviour, and dog bite prevention is an area of academic interest to me and I recently wrote a text book chapter about it. But that doesn't mean I think I know how to stop a police dog from chomping on me in error. In fact, I know next to nothing about keeping myself safe around a police dog, which is why if put in Victoria's shoes, I would have done what I was told to do, much like it appears she did. I would trust the handlers knew what they were doing and follow their directions, even if a part of me was thinking "Errrrr.... are you sure this is a good idea?". Trainers don't really like outsiders questioning them. It's wise IMO to keep your head down and let them run their own show. I would also assume this may not keep me safe. These dogs do make mistakes sometimes, and they are supposed to be fast and damaging. Handler's can't anticipate everything. Probably they should have anticipated this, but they are only human, and they would not be the first or last humans to fail to anticipate something that seems kind of obvious in retrospect.

... you try to put yourself in Victoria's shoes (yeah, these VS dog training boots look awesome :D ), but at the same time you admit that you have not much experience with police dogs while she still tries to sell herself as the expert for dog training, no matter what realm it is...that's the difference.

Where has she said she is an expert in working dog training of any sort? She is interested in police dog training and has been in discussion with local units. I've never seen her say she is an expert in this field. In fact, she says in the blog post about the incident: "I was honored and excited to attend, and, as is the case with a lot of my involvement in this field, I was mostly there to watch and observe."

Furthermore, it's a moot point. Even an expert may indeed follow the directions of a dog's handlers. It is the polite thing to do, and it's usually a good way to keep safe. You might work in protection on a daily basis, but it's still someone else's dog and someone else's training and you don't know what the triggers might be. So listen to the handler. As has been said several times already, hang around these dogs long enough and you will probably get bitten. It's got little to do with who you are or how skilled or experienced you say you are. It happens.

well, she declares herself as 'one of the world's most recognized and respected dog trainers', however, from a 'recognized and respected dog trainer' I expect to get the science around 'operant conditioning' right (she stresses her scientific approach pretty often). Have a look at her 4 pillars of positive training: while she stresses 'positive reinforcement' (first pillar) she doesn't list 'negative punishment', however she uses 'negative punishment' all the time!!! ...nothing wrong with using it, but don't call it 'positive reinforcement'.

And of course her handling / training is not force free...every time she / we use the leash to pull the dog in the direction we decide to go we are applying force!...a trained dog will just follow without force, but he was not born like this. There are a lot of shows in which she heavily (as far as it is possible with her VS dog training boots :D ) is pulling the leash to control the dog - it's not force free!

She is obviously a smart business woman with a selling concept and her acting and catwalk performance in her shows might draw some audience (but won't get her an Oscar), however, IMO she is not a very authentic person, and for me the later one is a very important 'pillar' when it comes to dog training.

ETA:...and I couldn't find any disclaimer on her page that would exclude working dogs and / or police dogs from her expertise.

This is definitely why she was bitten. Police dogs can't stand it when you forget to mention negative punishment.

sounds quite exciting sporti :) I hope you'll do a 'big reveal' with us when pup arrives. Complete with photos of course :)

And why would anyone be gloating that someone got bitten? I'm not a CM fan but I wouldn't want to see him chomped.

Exactly!

I don't understand how the anti-positive training brigade is seeing this as a win for them, as the dog that bit Stilwell wasn't trained by her? Presumably it was trained using correction collars and the like, as most police dogs are?

If only everyone was fully aware of the limits to their knowledge and skill....

What did she actually do wrong? Trust the handlers and trainers when she shouldn't have? If handlers and trainers told me it was safe to sit in the helicopter I probably would have believed them too. I might have then looked at the revved up police dog and thought 'oh shit' but it would have been too late then.

She isn't a police dog trainer. From watching her shows (and I did watch quite a lot) I can't even recall a heap of aggressive dog problems. It was things like dog pulling on the lead or counter surfing. Just pet problem stuff. I can't remember her ever saying that a dog should be put down I quite liked her and her boots :laugh: Oh and she had her own dog training business before the TV show.

Exactly Jules, It's not like she poked the dog with a stick! We're all only human, and it was just an accident with very harsh consequences for her unfortunately.

Not good form at all. And certainly does nothing to enhance the perception of showing among the general public either. I guess he's only human though.

She posts on her popular blog that she's been bitten during a cocked up training session...and keeps going on about how much it hurts and how she's got to take painkillers, etc... then wonders why people are having a go at her stupidity. Surely this is not the first and only time she's ever been bitten by a dog?

Funnily enough,if this had happened with a pet dog she'd been asked to come help sort out, she'd be advising euthanasia... I've seen her show once or twice, and her attitude seems to be that if she can't sort whatever the issue is, then the dog in question should be put down... *sigh*

T.

Really? By the description this isn't an ordinary dog bite, but a completely un-inhibited bite from a large dog trained to bite. It would hurt like hell.

Could you copy and paste the text please Sheridan?