m-sass

Poor breeding producing crap dogs results in dog's that go beyond the management capabilities of the average pet owner is one of the major problems with too many bullshit excuses and reasons why a dog exhibits unneccessay aggression without genetics being appropriately taken into account. Like the sire of my old fella, withdrawn from showing because he was DA...........but some dog snapped at him once and made him aggressive yet he passes the same trait onto his son??.

He said BSL doesn't work because most of the offending dogs are crossbreeds which comes back to the BYB's who they need to be targeting IMHO.

What dog aggression is out of line unless you want to train the dog to fight the dog needs a damn good correction and put back in it's place.........the only one who does the fighting is the handler and the dog needs to learn that. Too many dog owners try and place discrimintory reasoning when a dog is allowed to react and when they are not, ideally unless you want a full on fight to death to occur down the track, any bristle up's need to be corrected and stopped. :rofl: :rofl: If you punish a dog for warning of it's intentions you get a dog that "snaps" "for no reason". By punishing the dog for communicating in correct 'dog language' you are teaching the dog not to exhibit the behaviour which allows the intelligent owner to read their dog and act appropriately. The dog learns not to do something which causes it to be punished, which shows that on the whole dogs are considerably more intelligent than some DOL members. Yes, the people who can't rehabilitate dog aggression successfuly generally say that I agree

I think you touch on the real issue. My bet is that this dog was a backyard dog, probably very rarely(if ever) excercised, probably never socialised. This is where the politicians should be looking rather than focussing on breed. If every owner was forced to prove they had attended certified training/socialisation and be required to pass a dog ownership license test, these incidents would be massively reduced. Unfortunatley our politicians are populatist and not really interested in real solutions. Very sad for all concerned, especially those family pets that are well trained and socialised now getting PTS for no reason, other than the way they look. What the politicians are looking at is getting rid of crap dogs that don't need specialised raising/training/socialising to keep the community safe. Aggression isn't the default behaviour of good stable dogs who are poorly raised and managed, active aggression is in the genetics of the dog often masked by socialisation and training are the dogs who suddenly bite someone which seems out of character where in fact it's not and the same dog's default behaviour is aggression in it's raw form. A good stable dog has enough brain clarity to determine what's a threat and what's not and adjust accordingly to passive and voilitile environments, clearly it seems that not enough people have experienced good dogs to know the difference?

Yes, I found the 18-55mm lens short on range for general doggy action type shots having the same kit with my old Nikon D80.........you would put the 55-300mm on then the dogs would be getting in to close and vice versa with the shorter lense. I bought a D7000 late last year with the 18-105mm and found it heaps better in range almost perfect for the distance that my dogs will zoom around.......if the 18-55mm is annoying, you would love the 18-105mm :)

What dog aggression is out of line unless you want to train the dog to fight the dog needs a damn good correction and put back in it's place.........the only one who does the fighting is the handler and the dog needs to learn that. Too many dog owners try and place discrimintory reasoning when a dog is allowed to react and when they are not, ideally unless you want a full on fight to death to occur down the track, any bristle up's need to be corrected and stopped.

Just as i suspected, you don't understand what the term gameness actually means but you go around spouting about how the gameness in certain breeds is causing attacks, which is a load of nonsense. A large dog attacking a small dog does not show any level of gameness imo. Gameness is the willingness to win no matter what the odds, and it doesn't just relate to fighting. No matter what the odds is the same as without fear of consequence, I am well aware of what gameness is between a dog that has it the one's who haven't

Really.........why won't they recognise the APBT......sound's like they are practicing BSL to me? Yes that's a good idea The pound should be responsible enough to know the laws and be in loop of knowing where these things are heading, the spotight has been on the Pitbull for 20 years. Pitbull look a likes have been declared before long before these recent laws with restrictions imposed on them. Who's faults that??. The old man could have avoided all of that distress by choosing breed that isn't banned, it still boils down to choices

So I suppose this http://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/story/143478/puppy-killed-by-vicious-dalmatian/ is just a one off attack by a non aggressive breed so it is okay? Because Dali's heads aren't normally foggy with aggression. We aren't fighting to save BYBers and their over bred dogs. We are fighting to save certain breeds of dogs who are being discriminated against based on appearance. BYB's over breed many breeds of dogs, that isn't going to stop until legislation changes. You may not like bull breeds, but that is no reason for them to be eradicated. Laws like this are just the beginning It is bull breeds now, what is going to be next? Your head just seems to me to be foggy with hatred, maybe you need to channel your aggression into fighting BSL with the rest of us. You are not fighting to save certain breeds at all as the dogs people are fighting over are all BYB's of no specific breed as such that have no recognised standard. It's not the beginning of anything as the precident on what will be next was set with the Amstaff's exclusion from BSL although it's essentially a Pitbull of some degree. When a court determines that an Amstaff is a Pitbull and then specifically the Amstaff is excluded from BSL and not added to the list proves the point of where things are heading and confirms that ANKC recognised breeds are safe. If breed restrictions were on the agenda, the Amstaff would have been done and dusted..........and what happened??, the Amstaff being a recognised breed was excluded like any other recognised breed would be in the same instance. If they did for example try and add Dalmations onto the BSL list and ban them suddenly, the Amstaff sets the legal precident to overturn the decision immediately. Ask the question again what breed could be next?..........any breed or mixture of that is not ANKC recognised, again the choice is in the hands of the consumer if you want a dog that the rangers won't be scooping up, buy papered from a registered breeder or choose a cross breed or un-papered dog that doesn't resemble a restricted breed..........how hard is that seriously?? it's not hard at all. The only problem is that a lot of the numb nuts that want to own a "tough guy dog" are rejected as suitable owners by registered ethical breeders of Am Staffs.They have no choice but to go to the BYBs to get their "land shark". BYBs are accountable and should be stopped. True story.......one of these numb nuts got to see a trained security dog that a working Rotty breeder had recently used at stud. The numb nut told the breeder that his attacked trained Rotty was no good because he could pat the dog as he sat by the breeders side, he was hoping to see the dog try and take his arm off, Suffice to say that the breeder wouldn't sell a pup to this idiot anyway, but yes, there are plenty of numb nuts out there who want aggressive and tough dogs and it's the BYB's who are producing and supplying them and finding the aggression required from Bully type dogs.

Excellent post, hopefully some ant-BSL crusaders can provide some answers? No I don't want all crossbreeds dead at all and have never made reference to such either. The point I am making is about choices and to be honest I am sick and tired of people whinging about BSL because they have chosen a Pitbull type of dog.........what do they expect when playing with restricted breeds or dogs that resemble them, it's no different than people whinging that the rotten cop got them for drunk driving and pissy drivers whinge about that too like the anti BSL crusaders do, same thing. I have absolutely no problem with groups fighting for the Pitbull's release from BSL or for the abolishment of BSL, but in the meantime, the law is the law and if the Pitbull and their look alikes are off the register, don't have dogs like that "until" the laws are successfully ammended "FIRST". As far as crossbreeds go, I guess I have had the pleasure and hold the highest respect for the amount of work and money that dedicated breeders put into their work to produce good breed examples. I have seen imported dogs that have cost a fortune desexed because the owner/breeder didn't like a trait the dog produced, I have seen the endless amount of work which is a lifestyle to these dedicated breeders, I have seen the money wasted and I have seen the success, the failure and the heartache, but my God, do some dedicated breeders try to produce the best they can an I take my hat off to them in complete admiration of that dedication. What's the BYB do in comparison..........put a male and female together and I should respect their breeding skills and products..........are you joking

So I suppose this http://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/story/143478/puppy-killed-by-vicious-dalmatian/ is just a one off attack by a non aggressive breed so it is okay? Because Dali's heads aren't normally foggy with aggression. We aren't fighting to save BYBers and their over bred dogs. We are fighting to save certain breeds of dogs who are being discriminated against based on appearance. BYB's over breed many breeds of dogs, that isn't going to stop until legislation changes. You may not like bull breeds, but that is no reason for them to be eradicated. Laws like this are just the beginning It is bull breeds now, what is going to be next? Your head just seems to me to be foggy with hatred, maybe you need to channel your aggression into fighting BSL with the rest of us. You are not fighting to save certain breeds at all as the dogs people are fighting over are all BYB's of no specific breed as such that have no recognised standard. It's not the beginning of anything as the precident on what will be next was set with the Amstaff's exclusion from BSL although it's essentially a Pitbull of some degree. When a court determines that an Amstaff is a Pitbull and then specifically the Amstaff is excluded from BSL and not added to the list proves the point of where things are heading and confirms that ANKC recognised breeds are safe. If breed restrictions were on the agenda, the Amstaff would have been done and dusted..........and what happened??, the Amstaff being a recognised breed was excluded like any other recognised breed would be in the same instance. If they did for example try and add Dalmations onto the BSL list and ban them suddenly, the Amstaff sets the legal precident to overturn the decision immediately. Ask the question again what breed could be next?..........any breed or mixture of that is not ANKC recognised, again the choice is in the hands of the consumer if you want a dog that the rangers won't be scooping up, buy papered from a registered breeder or choose a cross breed or un-papered dog that doesn't resemble a restricted breed..........how hard is that seriously??

Perhaps you should consider passing the information regarding the Monash university research onto the Victorian government, if that's already been done, the information doesn't seem to have provided a BSL resolution? Gameness in a dog is a trait I consider as an uncontrollable state of active aggression without fear of consequence.

The sensationalism I see in bite reports by the media amounts to the damage inflicted and the reason I think Pitbull type dogs appear more often than other breeds is that they do the most damage to make a story out of. There have been other breeds involved in the more serious attacks, we had the Labrador last year who attacked 4 people, we have had a couple of Husky type dogs, a Rotty maybe the Chihauhua bites that required a bandaid and kiss from mummy to make it all better doesn't create media ratings, but I don't think by any means if a Miniture Poodle killed a baby in it's pram that the incident wouldn't reach the media, it would be on the front page as Ayen Cohl's death appeared just the same.

At the moment yes, but whether it remains that way is something to consider for the future as the fact is as far as I am aware, you can't tell legally or professionally whether a cross is Pitbull or Amstaff with a dog of unconfirmed/unknown parentage??. However for the purpose of this thread my advice going Amstaff is to buy papered from a registered breeder to safeguard against potential problems down the track.

I would be plain stupid to expect people to believe the dog pictured here is a Cocker Spaniel? Apperance is in 99% in all cases how everyone determines breed, so how can we all accept on a daily we basis we think to ourselves "oh there is a GSD, a Lab, what ever what ever", but the council is not allowed to thing "oh there's a Pitbull"??

Unbelievable..........so how do we determine these dogs are not Pitbull's to get scooped up in the BSL system.......anything Amstaff is sheer stupidity IMHO to purchase unpapered in this legislative climate, if the ranger grabs your dog you have been warned

Looks like another good candidate to get scooped up in the restricted breed system.

I couldn't agree more, it is the fools that are breeding these dogs that need to be hunted down and punished not the dogs. Once these dogs are bred responsibility needs to be on the owners to make them good canine members of society. Most people who rescue Bull Breed type dogs are very much aware of training and socialisation and know what potential these dogs often have, it just needs to be nurtured and trained like any other breed or type of dog. Make Pit Bulls legal and a lot of these bybers will lose interest in breeding..... I absolutely refuse to believe that dogs are born bad m-sass, there are no dogs on this planet that dont deserve a chance once they have been brought into the world. I certainly dont support bybers or those people who breed cross breeds but I will not condemn the dogs produced by them. AN Australian bulldog that bit the face of a nine-year-old boy as he peered over a fence at Port Lincoln has been put down. Problem is it's always the same crap involved 9 times out of 10, whatever an Australian Bulldog is, but another "good" dog that can't determine what's a threat and what isn't like little Ayen's killer, what was last weeks, oh another Mastiff X thing that breaks it's collar, kills a little dog, injures another and bites a lady........seriously what do these mongrels think they are protecting for the necessity to kill and people can't understand why laws are tightening up on these "type" of dogs Dogs with serious foggy headed aggression are hard to handle and difficult to train for novice or irresponsible owners and although I agree in principal that the deed should over ride the breed, but some innocent person or other animal will be the recipient of the deed for action to follow and preventing the deed caused by these half arsed breedings is what scooping up this type of dog is about to save the innocent recipients of the deed from suffering. So we don't agree with the random BYB's breeding crap dogs, but we are supposed to fight to save their products??, we either support BYB's or we don't and sorry I don't, I hate them passionately and always have done whether they are farming pet shop oodles or producing junk yard guard dogs they are all the same dogs with a different leg action.

The breeders/suppliers are the people I believe are at fault, they are the people who need to know the legislation like a used car dealer knows they can't sell a car with bald tyres or brakes that don't work. The shouldn't be cross breeding a Lab with a Staffy, cross the Lab with a Whippet if they have to or create another doodle, but not a Staffy, Amstaff, American Bull Dog or anything of that type of Molosser breed in this present regulated climate. Rescues shouldn't be selling Pitbull look a likes either sad as it is, anyone of credibility dealing dogs should not be leading naive public into these positions where their dogs are vulnerable to seizure, better still perhaps certain suppliers should be permitted to sign off on a dog from a temperament test??. Personally I would like to see in conjuction with a dog determined as a restricted breed is next question: where did you get it from , who supplied that dog and where possible the breeder/supplier cops a fine for supplying a restricted breed of dog.......there needs to be accountability for breeding and supply which may stop some of the reckless and irresponsible breeding practices in the process?? Ignorance being no excuse is a standard function of law........I didn't know my dog needed a leash because she has a great recall??, I didn't know I couldn't drive half pissed??....... I didn't know about restricted breeds won't stop the ranger scooping up your dog??.......unfortunately that's how it works. People research what new TV they are going to buy and where they are going to buy it from, they need to apply the same forethoughts into buying a dog and doing so avoids all these problems some people are facing.

What right does a government body have to restrict a breed without hard evidence that there is a universal hardwiring of the brain that pitbull and pitbull types are human/dog aggressive? im sorry to inform you but GSD, Rotties and Dobes have all been placed in this category before, its just the cop out of the century really, also who are you or anyone else to tell people what breed they can/should be buying/adopting? that is absolutely disgraceful what's next? where do the restrictions stop? its a bandaid solution for a problem that lays with the human race not the k9 one, and I dont think you are anyone to tell people to stop fighting for what they believe in, and that is the culling of innocent dogs for the way they look! next 10 years it WILL be another breed in which the minority will destroy and the majority will have to pay the consequence. And FYI Pitbulls and American Staffords were the same breed 70 odd years ago, one was bred for show one a pit....... they are not bred for a pit anymore and in some countires they are recognised as a breed, if they were recogised in australia and if they were to be bred ethically and legally, breeding for temprement would have to me a major factor like with any other breed. Breeding is not all about how the dog physically meets he standard but it is mentally as well, agression can be bred into ANY breed if done so by dim bats. That's not the point, it's like arguing that at a 0.05 blood alcohol level, your reflexes as a driver are better than the old dear down the street who's 85 years old driving stone cold sober..........it's probably true but doesn't provide a defence under the law as an excuse for pissy driving. When the law is place it doesn't have to be right or wrong, you either abide or you don't and if you don't abide and get caught, cop it on the chin. I don't disagree that the Pitbull isn't a good breed, infact the "proper" Pitbull's I have met were all good dogs, but releasing the Pitbull from BSL and disregarding the laws by owning and breeding them contrary to the laws regardless because you have a bee in your bonnet over it with a do as you please attitude IMHO is the wromg stance to take and is the reason the anti BSL crusader never make any headway towards their goals, the laws are getting tougher on restricted breeds not slacker, so all the bravado of breeding what you like coz the government are all idoits and everyone can get stuffed isn't working is it??

In most areas Pitbull's are supposed to be desexed and in the areas that may allow the breeding of them, they are obviously not scooping them up for seizure so it's not really relevent to the discussion. I don't think Koolies are on the resticted breed lists or require to be registered as dangerous dogs are they, in other words the Koolie's future isn't at threat so why would I think a Koolie breeder would be a moron? If the control area where a breeder lives requires Pitbull's to be desexed and they breed them contrary to those laws IMHO they are absolute morons, yes!! It always has been a problem with dogs that resemble a Pitbull in areas that restrict them although they may have not been seized,they have been required to comply with leash and muzzle rules, housing enclosure and desexing if the owners couldn't prove the dog was not Pitbull related. The problem now is that they have taken things to the next level with this type of dog but as someone mentioned elswhere in the thread there is/was only a couple of place that freely allowed the ownership and breeding of Pitbull's.........the few Pitbull's that I know of personally were council registered as a Bully crossbreed to avoid the living and desexing restrictions, but now this loophole is closing. My family live in WA and for many years in Perth it was standard practice to register a Pitbull as a crossbreed, people have been doing this around the country for a long time to sidestep the laws, we all know that?? Exactly!!! and these morons need to be knocked off with a heavy penalty for breach of the laws........they need to be policing this and shut the gate where it begins.

The Pitbull has been "regulated" for 20 years which should IMHO generate some caution for people's decision to breed them or breed dogs of Pitbull resemblence. Problem is the breeders of these dogs do what they like, couldn't care less, take no responsibility for the doggy lives they bring into the world in total disregard for how these dogs relate to the law structure or what future they may encounter. The "morons" are the people breeding these dogs as far as I am concerned, no one is forced to breed a Bully X, they make the choice with no thought of the potential consequence of doing so. Anti BSL crusades are really just a "lets all support irresponsible and reckless breeding practices"..........sorry I don't support that, breeders should be accountable for what they produce and think more responsibly about what they are doing??

The dog who killed poor little Ayen to project the intensity of hunt, gameness and aggression to perform the deed he did would take an extremely skilled and dedicated owner to control and manage a dog like that, the dog was a landshark unfit for community living and someone did breed it someone who should be held accountable for breeding crap IMHO. The dog in Adelaide the other day who broke his collar and killed the little dog, these things happen, drop the leash, slip on the wet grass, don't latch the gate properly.......who hasn't chased a young dog up the street who shot out between your legs or something, it's life, it happens, but when it does happen and the dog is uncontrollable and dangerously aggressive to innocent people and other animals the gameness is in the dog and someone bred it who needs to be scrutinised WTF are you breeding??. The BYB structure is a bloody free for all, breed what you like when you like and sell them to who ever you like.........try and buy high drive working GSD, Rott or Malinois capable of defensive training from a dedicated working breeder if you are a moron who wants a dog to intimidate people, breeders of this type of dog won't sell to morons often if you don't know someone to provide a reference you won't get passed the telephone, let alone buy one, well bred dogs of the triats capable of being trained to be defensive by specialist breeders heavily screen where their dogs are going and when do we hear of dogs like this taking people out........never, it's the BYB who breed crap and sell to morons like clockwork frequency, something needs to be done about the source of these dogs for my liking.

Nothing I have said isn't true, Pitbulls have been restricted for years, have never been a recognised breed and at any time breeds of this status can cop the chop when they are only one step away from a total ban. Pitbull's haven't been overly policed in the past so people get a bit reckless in their thoughts that owning a Pitbull or Pitbull look a like is ok...........bit like the drunk who drives home along the back streets from the pub every night for 10 years and has never seen a cop before along the trusty route, but drink driving is playing with fire like owning a Pitbull look a like, we all have choices and that's my opinion on the matter, it's nothing to do with trolling seeing something differently??. I wouldn't touch a dog that looked like a Pitbull unless it was a papered pure breed where I could prove what breed it was, not because I don't think a Pitbull isn't a good dog, because I don't want my dog scooped up and euthanised for no fault of it's own. Countries where Wolf hybrids are banned, GSD's and Husky type crossbreeds are vulnerable to seizure if they are a bit Wolfy looking, no differnt to what is happening in Victoria. I don't agree what is happening to innocent dogs is a good thing, it stinks, but the writing has been on the wall for 20 years which to me is fair warning to make better choices.......the Victorian situation is easly avoided by aquiring dogs with a bit more forethought into what you are getting is it not??.

People need to take resposibility for their own choices and stop blaming other people for the crackdown on restricted breed type dogs IMHO. Whether a dog is a Pitbull or whether it is not is all nonesense really as the point is, Pitbulls have been a restricted breed for 20 odd years and people need to think before they buy, aquire whatever??. Any random Bully type crossbreed could be deemed as a Pitbull so why on earth get a dog like that in the first place and leave yourself and your dog vulnerable to mis identifications, seizures, dangerous dog declarations etc etc, it makes no sense to me. If you like Bully breeds, get a proper one from a registered breeder, one that can be verified what it is, one that is safe from these laws, if you like to rescue a dog, get a nice Greyhound or something that looks nothing like a Pitbull, no one needs a dog that replicates a restricted breed, there are plenty of options out there to choose from and avoid these situations, people need to think a bit harder about the choices they make? It's not a case of right or wrong whether it should be ok to own a Pitbull or a crossbreed that looks like one, it's a case of the law determining them to be a restricted breed and the bottom line is get caught with one and you could be facing a drama and heartache, so why go there I ask then whinge when the wheels fall off, they have been trying to get rid of Pitbull's for 20 years, it was only a matter of time before the axe fell??