BorderBo

Thank you, Skye GSD and OSoSwift for your responses and support. Actually, I was able to get an emergency appointment with Steve at K9Pro last Monday and he set out a program for us to work and put Bo in a prong collar but to be honest, I was already at my own personal breaking point and regret that I hadn't been to see Steve earlier when I was in a better place physically and emotionally - I had already been to two different trainers and Bo had been to a boarding / training program where he responded well within the confines of the training area - out in the big wide world, however, it was a different matter, with him reverting to his out-of-control reactivity once again. Thinking back on that, he was also being kennelled with several other dogs, allowing him unlimited playtime and socialisation, consequently meeting his drive satisfaction need. Back at home as a single dog, his reactivity built back up once again. After several falls and a painful shoulder injury, I was at the point where I was waking up in the early hours of the morning with anxiety, dreading taking him out and unable to concentrate on anything but Bo and these issues which I felt out of my depth with. I was neglecting my business, my family, myself. I was even considering taking three months leave from my business to concentrate on him full-time - realistically, that would have meant losing my business and income of 14 years but during that last week, I was considering it seriously. It was suggested putting Bo in a kennel for a period so I could get my act back together and now, of course, I wonder if I shouldn't have done this - kept going with it after a short break. Your right about hindsight, Skye GSD, I keep going over it and thinking what I could have done differently, how I might have handled things differently. Like your girl, Bo, was well-behaved and respectful at home - I did alot of work with him, working the NILIF program and obedience training daily. He became a very respectful dog in that way. Reading posts on this forum, it would seem my leadership skills were not strong enough though interestingly, Bo was not my first dog - I've had dogs (and horses) all my life .... high energy, working breeds, too, so I have no idea why my relationship with Bo was of such a different dynamic. I am naturally heartbroken and struggling with my decision a week on - it doesn't sit easy, however, my main concern now is for Bo and that he is re-homed with the right person / family. He is back with his original foster carer and his canine pack of 30, where his drive satisfaction is now being taken care of. He's not exhibiting any of his reactivity in this environment and so I sense there is a big question mark over whether it exists at all - or if it does, it's just with me. That worries the hell out of me - that he is not being properly assessed. How can he be with 30 other dogs living free-range in a residential house - all they see is that he is not aggressive with other dogs, which he is not .... and he is obedience trained, which he is, but ......At the risk of sounding emotional and dramatic (which I feel right now) all I want to do is drive the 8 hours down south and go bring him home and try again, with renewed determination and energy. Thanks for all the constructive and supportive feedback with regard to this post and others I have made - I have learned much from you during this journey but I would have to agree with you Skye GSD, it's often wise to refrain from thoughtless and totally non-constructive comments (or rather judgements) until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation. Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either. Thanks for that and your assumptions, however, this is a rescue dog I adopted at 7 months and have had for 3 months, who has had plenty of other behavioural issues that I haven't even gone into here but which I have been successfully able to progress with training and working the NILIF program. For the first two weeks we had him, he was quiet and non-reactive and being walked on a flat collar without any issues. Prior to adopting him, he was sharing a residential house with 30 other dogs and had not been walked outside of the property by the foster carer who whilst a caring and well-intentioned soul, did not carry out a proper assessment on the dog or whether we were suitably matched. I have taken great lengths and time(not to mention expense) trying to work with this dog, and have enlisted professional help in addition to an in-house training / boarding facility with follow up obedience classes, to give him and I the best possible chance of resolving these issues. I had three bad falls in a week which was the prompter for the prong collar introduction by our trainer. So as far as skipping steps are concerned, I think your comments are way off mark here - and being in "this situation" has been incredibly stressful and confidence shattering. Perhaps you could be abit more sensitive when you make thoughtless remarks like this. As an adjunct, I pretty much hit the wall last week with the stress and anxiety of the situation and worrying that the next fall may result in more serious injuries than those already sustained. Unable to concentrate or dedicate time to my business and my family and feeling way out of my depth and desperate, the dog was returned to the rescue centre where he came from where he is now apparently extremely happy to be amongst a pack of 30 dogs, playing to his heart's content, walking on a loose lead with four other dogs and I have been made to feel (and do feel) like a complete idiot and failure, having let this dog down - a dog whom I loved and miss dearly.

I've been pulled off my feet two consecutive days in a row so this is music to my ears!

Yes, I totally agree with you regarding constant jerking on a check chain - my dog has a large-ish head compared to his neck so to get the right size over his head means too much slack around his neck. I've had another fall this morning with him lunging at a dog - skinned a knee this time through my pants. My prong is on order but to have used one on Saturday and seen fantastic results and to be now back on a check chain in the interim period - it's call prong teasing, I think!

I'm surprised any Club up the Beaches has allowed the use of a prong. Good on them though for being more open minded No, not a club on the Beaches - not on their lives, I've heard!

Thanks for your advice and yes, have tried the GL but it is not recommended for a lunger - from my research the Halti and GL can be just as problematic and damaging (if not more so) in the wrong hands and on the wrong dog. I appreciate your advice - it's all helpful.

I was directed towards a Gentle Leader by my prior trainer from a franchise affair dog training centre. It was correctly fitted by him, together with a slip collar (not a check chain nor a martingale but similar to the latter) - i.e. lead was connected at both ends to these two tools. I was to engage the Gentle Leader as required. My dog hated it and was continuously stopping and trying to paw it off (after many weeks and treats combined). It rubbed the fur off his nose and would edge up close under his eyes. I also tried a Halti prior to this at someone else's suggestion - the dog trainer had a hard preference for the GL and persuaded me to buy that. The trainer I am ultimately working with concurs with you about this type of device being totally unsuitable for a reactive dog / lunger and also believed that the GL / combined collar affair was stressing the dog. The check chain whilst it barely goes over my dog's head is too loose once it reaches his neck making corrections far less effective. Do you use a back up collar with your prong collar, SecretKei? Does anyone know if the Dominate Dog collar that was recommended by Tilly and Nekhbet is available in AUS?

Great - Thanks for that and I will check out the Leerburg website.

Excellent advice, thank you, and reflects my own thoughts and future direction. My research on the prong collar indicates that it is actually provides a far less severe and much safer correction than a check chain - I have been using a check chain for the past 10 days and I don't feel I have perfected the technique combined with the right timing - I don't like to think I am practising at my dog's expense. The placement of the darn thing does not stay where it should either, with me constantly having to readjust it. As soon as I do, he immediate shakes his head to reposition it. He is wearing the correct size and wears a flat collar too which I had hoped may help keep it in place. Talk about a learning curve!

Thanks, Tilly .... I have a reconstructed left shoulder which is really bearing the brunt of the behaviour at the moment (followed closely by my nerves!). I read a post on another site from a well-known trainer who is highly regarded on this site that a prong collar can be a life-line to an owner who is over their own threshold ..... I really related to that. I wondered about the collar aware issue and also whether dogs can become desensitized to the prong collar itself over time. Thanks for the heads up regarding the back-up collar - that's a great idea. I'm assuming you link the same lead to both collars via their rings - if so and using a check chain or similar as the back-up collar, wouldn't that initiate a double correction? Cheers, Vicki

Would welcome feedback from trainers and users of the prong collar - its effectiveness in helping to control pulling, lurching, lunging and focus in a highly reactive dog. I am at the end of my own tether with a 10 month adolescent border x kelpie who is a rescue dog that I have had for 2 1/2 months. I have had dogs all throughout my life and have undertaken basic obedience training with each of them - I have never experienced any major behavioural issues that were not overcome and have enjoyed long and pleasurable relationships with these wonderful companions. I am struggling with my beautiful new boy - he has proven a big handful for me and whilst a recent training / boarding program has definitely improved things, he is still highly reactive around other dogs now back in his own environment and walking him twice daily is incredibly stressful and exhausting - for me. I am no wallflower and don't let him willingly walk all over me ... out walking I am forever doing about right turns to bring him back to heel when he tries to forge ahead, do numerous sits, drops and stays, particularly when he starts to get worked up - and praise / reward him with high value treats accordingly for obedience, including for focus (I do numerous look exercises throughout our walks and he can keep focus during low level dog distractions. I am used to enjoyable, stress-free walks and off-leash dog park activities with my former companions so this is all new and very daunting territory for me. I'm buggered if I know where I am going wrong with my leadership skills when out walking - when we are training in the park he is totally focused and eager to work for me - recreational walking is another, altogether different experience. It's NILIF all the way at home and he has learned to be VERY respectful in every way - waits to be released through door ways, in and out of the car, eating his dinner, won't step a paw in areas of the home where he is not allowed access, etc. I can't fault his behaviour in this regard - he is good natured and a gentleman with everyone who visits our home. Ironically, when we are out walking / training in the park, numerous people come up to me and remark on what a well-behaved, well-trained dog he is - until a dog appears and then it all goes pear-shaped. My trainer has suggested using a prong collar and I trialled him with this (under instruction / guidance) at obedience class yesterday with loads of dog distractions and it definitely made a huge difference. He was heeling well though will usually do this in a training environment. I appreciate that prong / check chains / corrections are an emotive subject and am not looking to attract or generate personal criticism or disparagement - constructive comment from anyone who has used a prong collar to address these type of issues and whether they were successful / used short or long term. Thank you in advance. :p

Great response, Erny. Hindsight is always a fine thing and we often make the choices we make based on best intentions (and sometimes a dash of desperation too). One has to be mindful, that not everyone has the knowledge, ability and confidence, too, to educate their dogs unassisted. I first went to Dog Tech for that assistance and despite their best efforts (and mine) I felt some issues with my dog were worsening and felt ill-equipped and lacking in knowledge and education in knowing how to deal with them. I actually worked myself up into a state of anxiety and physical exhaustion over it. Not good for me, worse for my dog. I didn't want to give up on my dog or myself and so looked at other ways that I could get some help pronto. The training / boarding solution / option seemed a good one to me, the novice, particularly with the facility and team that I ultimately chose. Ironically, just today, I was grabbing a sandwich at a local cafe and the proprietor asked me where Bo was. I filled him in and he exclaimed excitedly that he had sent his adolescent lab to another well-known B&T facility here in Sydney some 6 years ago for pretty much the same challenges I was having with Bo. The end result was extremely positive and effective and he has carried through with the training ever since and couldn't be happier - like me, he felt unskilled in developing a sound training foundation in his dog. I totally agree - I would much rather be the one to train my dog - I just needed some expert guidance and foundation laying and I feel confident that my dog and I will have benefited positively as a result. I'll keep you posted but am 100% committed in maintaining the behaviours learned and with continuing obedience classes with Steve, Glenn and Co. Thanks so much for your input and comments.

Hi Christine. What have you heard? I'm very curious to know. HR Me too - obviously!

Thanks for this really positive and constructive feedback - much appreciated. Bo is working with two of their female handlers who seem young and competent - I am sure Glenn in particular given he operates full-time from the Dural facility mentor and overseas the training. I really liked both Glenn and Steve when I met them. Glenn took a particular interest in getting to know me and what my issues were with Bo. I have been keeping in contact with them during the process to-date and things are progressing well they have advised. Bo is spending his days between training in the office with the staff so he must be behaving himself and enjoying his time there. Can't wait to see him next week!

That's so reassuring to hear, Erny. I was hoping that when I posted my message that you would see it and respond with your own thoughts and feedback if you had any. Both Glenn and Steve struck me as really down-to-earth, lovely men, too, and of course, their talents / knowledge / reputations as trainers precede them. I will definitely say ;) to them both for you and thanks again for all the positive feedback - I am resting much easier which is good.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and share your thoughts / support - much appreciated! You are 100% right - Bo is doing some really good stuff and I am consciously focusing on all the positives, particularly on the tough days. Before he went off to the boarding / training facility, I was writing up a daily journal on our achievements / wins / good behaviours and focusing on those (usually because I would come home from walks totally stuffed, with aching arms, shoulders and fingers and needed to refocus on the positives!). He does some great work when we train in the park and in some instances, I have been able to conquer some meet and greets without too much distraction or hyperactivity. It has depended alot on the other dog/s - if they react, he's on for it too. I am doing plenty of sit, stay and look exercises with him. He's a good "looker" in every sense actually! I also think you are right about the socialisation issue - when we picked him up from his foster carer, he was sharing a house with 11 other dogs of all temperaments, breeds and sizes but was pretty much doing whatever he wanted, when he wanted and with whom he wanted. I thought at the time that he was getting some good socialisation but with hindsight, perhaps not of the best kind! I know that with his first family whom he went to as a pup, there was an older dog in the family too. I don't know much more than that. I had a progress report / chat with his handler today and she commented that over-the-top behaviour and manners with other dogs needed ...um .... work and he had been doing plenty of lunging and barking, as he does with me. She wasn't phased by it and said that they were working on his focus and him learning that he didn't get what he wanted with those tactics, etc. I'm glad they have seen him in action - the Dog Tech trainer never really did! I am encouraged by your own experiences / progress with your guys - well done, you! Thanks for your interest - I will keep you posted on how he / we goes. I am missing him and those blue eyes but my reconstructed shoulder is loving the rest! Cheers, V

I agree. ETA: Hey Staranais ;) .. You're right. Steve (K9 Pro) is in a different State - ie NSW. I (Pro-K9) am in Victoria. Thanks, Erny - appreciate your response. I have read many, many of your posts (some dating back years!) and I have found the information and advice on obedience / training given really helpful to me. I'll always read an "Erny" post! Received progress report from Bo's handler today and he's coming along well apparently - has really settled in at the facility and is working hard for his tucker. I am resting up and am looking forward to reinforcing all their hard work and getting some further training on how to do this, of course! Cheers, Vicki

Thanks for that - appreciate your feedback. Cheers, Vicki

Thanks for the positive feedback, Vickie, and for taking the trouble to respond. I had a good feeling about the team there but it's always reassuring to hear about first hand experience with anything - I am resting much easier - thanks so much. Cheers, Vicki

Thank you Staranais - I have read quite a few posts from both and was left impressed. Hope Steve Austin's facility is also a recommendation because Bo is there!

Hi Megan Thanks for your response. He is at Steve Austin's Dural facility - I was reluctant to name it in my original post out of respect and I did do a search but found very little information and nothing first hand - at least not with the search I did. Would welcome feedback / direct experience. Cheers, V

Thanks for your reply, reassurance and advice, Christine! Much appreciated. Relieved to hear Bo sounds like a normal pup! Too late regarding the boarding / training program - he is there! Received progress call from trainer this morning - all positive feedback. Will cross each bridge as I come to it and will definitely call Steve Courtney should I need to - thanks for the heads up. Cheers, Vicki x PS: What was I thinking - here is a pic of my boy, Bo - beautiful blue eyes, bad hips! x

Hello Everyone! I am a newbie to the forum and would like to introduce myself and also say how much I have enjoyed reading through the various topics and threads and how much I have learned from you all. I am the relatively new owner (8 weeks) of a 9 month old border kelpie x rescue pup who has proven to be quite a challenge for me. I lost my cattle dog (13.5 years) at Xmas to congestive heart failure and it's been quite a few years since I've had to deal with a pup, let alone a completely untrained, very bombastic one. Soon after bringing our boy home from the rescue facility, I thought I detected some laxity in his hips when running. Turns out I was right and he has rather bad HD, particularly in his left hip. After a consultation with an ortho specialist, we had him booked in for a triple pelvic osteotomy to correct the problem - there was a very small window of opportunity regarding his eligibility for this procedure (age, arthritis, damage to the rim of the socket) and so the pressure was on to get it done asap. After careful consideration (I'll get to that in a minute) we have cancelled the operation because whilst our boy might be physically eligible for the operation, I don't believe he is mentally or emotionally with a 12 week recovery period -IMO (and my vet as it turned out - why were we doing it then?) he is way too manic and energetic to be successfully contained for that period of time without huge stress or compromising of the surgery. I believe that Bo's hips are the least of his problems at the moment. The vet has expressed that he can always "fix" his hip/s later on if not now. I'm not sure where that will take us. I decided pretty early on in the piece to bring in Dog Tech for some one-on-one-training sessions as well as joining their adolescent obedience classes which were incredibly stressful and left me feeling way out of my depth. We were training in a confined space (at the back of a Pet store with 10 other juvenile dogs). Bo was over-the-top excited, barking, lunging and turning cartwheels and somersaults. On the flip side, Bo is a dream in the house - he was quick to learn boundaries (i.e. no entering the kitchen or coming upstairs to the second level of our house) and is now well-mannered when it comes to entering and exiting doorways (he sits, stays until released), ditto getting in and out of the car (again, stays put until he is released). He is excellent with sits, stays, drops and "look" - focus on me (even during myriad distractions other than dogs - not all dogs and not in all situations - when he goes over his threshold I've lost him). I have had issues with him pulling like a freight train on the lead though I've been working on this and he has improved significantly, jumping up (he used to be get so excited when he first saw me in the morning that he would jump up repeatedly and mouth me on the wrist or arm, giving me a shake as well as bruises). Totally unacceptable, I know, and I have worked hard to bring this under control, having finally succeeded. He is also lunging at other dogs while out walking - it started off as excitement to get to the other dog but has escalated to what appears to be frustrated aggression. Anyway, after 3 one-on-one sessions and loads of practice using the methods taught by DT, these particular issues had not been resolved and I have struggled to be able to get the DT trainer back due to his busy schedule. I had wanted to do some further serious work with him hands-on, insitu to address this particular behaviour as I have begun to find my walks with Bo an exhausting and somewhat overwhelming experience. I walk him 2 x daily for 1 hour each walk. I am a novice and out of my depth and I am happy to own that title! I have been reading up on this behaviour on this forum and have been doing much of what is recommended and it has been working - small steps - but I don't always know if I'm actually improving things or making them worse. I tend to pick my dogs too at this stage to do the exercises with - those who tend to be more calm and disinterested in Bo's antics and behaviour as opposed to dogs who tend to be just as reactive and usually unchecked by their owners. Anyway, last week I felt desperate, overwhelmed and totally exhausted with it all. I did some research and came across an in-house boarding / training program with one of Australia's leading dog trainers (although this trainer does not train the dog himself, rather his handlers do under his supervision - that is how it is presented). I appreciate that this is not a quick fix nor do I expect to collect a perfectly behaved and trained dog next week - I also appreciate that it is up to me to work with my dog and reinforce the training correctly. I am 100% committed to this process - I just felt that I was totally out-of-my-depth and I needed immediate respite otherwise I might have been tempted to throw in the towel mainly due to being over exhausted and overwhelmed. I was so worried about the situation and feeling out of control in it that I wasn't sleeping very well, therefore no doubt communicating a less than calm, relaxed and assertive energy through the lead. I would be really appreciative of any feedback / experiences from others who have taken this route and any advice they might be able to offer going forward. I intend to follow up with weekly obedience classes at this facility and they have promised to assist me with any problems that might occur once I am travelling solo again. Whilst I should be maximising this downtime and recharging my batteries, I can't help but worry, too, about what lies ahead and if I can deliver the goods. I keep trying to focus on all the wins and improvements that have been achieved to date prior to my boy going into this program but I think I have also lost some confidence along the way as well. I am normally an assertive, confident person and was particularly so with my last dog who was somewhat of a handful when she was an adolescent too but a much smaller dog to deal with as well. Predictably, I have been berated by the Dog Tech trainer for taking the easy way out - I don't see it this way though. It was either call in some emergency assistance and recharge in order to keep going forward or surrender the dog whom I felt I could not deal with but love to bits. Part of the DT process was ignoring the dog at all times to assert dominance and obtain pack leader status, except during training and when positive reinforcement / treats would be given for good behaviour (at home I was to only meet his basic needs and any attention would have to be earned). Whilst I can appreciate that bad behaviour / dominance needs to be addressed / ignored, I can't see how the family ostracising our dog who is an affectionate and loving pup by nature is in his (or ours) emotional best interests and nor do I believe it acknowledges or rewards his very good and calm behaviour in the home. I also feel it has affected my bonding process with him adversely. I am no expert, of course - but feel guided by my instincts and my past experiences with my previous dogs on this one. I believe the DT trainer to be well-intentioned and his approach has been 100% professional but I feel concerned that this one size fits all dogs approach is not working with my dog - nor is the Gentle Leader which stresses him out and which has rubbed a band of hair off his nose - the soft material slip collar seems totally ineffective for corrections too. Picture this: I am operating what is ostensibly double lead (much like double reins in dressage which I used to do). One lead end is connected to the Gentle Leader under the chin and the other end connected to the ring on the fabric slip collar O ring. One long loop lead where I control GL and lead as required. DT trainer very against the check chain which is being used at the training facility but a I stressed to him, it's not the tool (I believe) that is harmful to the dog but rather the person using it. I felt that I could do just as much harm to my dog's neck with misuse of the Gentle Leader. He did concede this was correct. Excuse the ramblings - any feedback on this process would be greatly appreciated and thanks for taking the time to read my story. Cheers, V