german_shep_fan

Slightly off topic but I often wonder how some of these health problems come abt? Is it the way dogs are bred or just bad luck? In the GSD the hemophilia gene can be traced back to one very prominent show dog many moons ago and things spread from there. He apparently died young but as he was a popular boy the damage was done Fortunately, and as should be the gene has been mostly eradicated now. But just made me think how one dud dog can do so much damage.

I would not bet letting people see my babies that young. I know of breeders who have lost whole litters after someone came to look at 5 week old pups, said they hadn't been to any other breeders places that day - they lied end result all puppies dead from PArvo.

Also I dare anyone to go into a room with a Dobe bitch and her two tweek old babies and try to put their hand in, touch them ro anything - thats if they get into the room in the first place. When they were older she would probably hand you one as you walk out the door.

Yes it is nice to get all mushy over new babies but it is not in the new babies or mums best interestes to be upset when theya re that young.

I guess we have had different experiences then :)

What is so wrong with prospective buyers wanting to see the puppies early? Obv you cannot tell temp ect but I would just be excited to see them at such a young age, be able to gush, perhaps get some pics of proud mum with her pups ect. As for calling them tyre kickers...

Glad to hear all went well for Fenrir :) Are you still going to show her in the neuter class? :)

First female not desexed lived to 15 and died of old age. Second female spayed at 5, died of hamengioscarcoma at 9. Third female desexed at 6 months, died of hamengioscaroma at 12. Fourth female 17mnths not desexed, perhaps being naive but no intention of desexing due to research being done into desexing and increased rates of hamengiosacorma. None with mammary cancer or pyo

I wonder if any research has ever been done to determine if a bitch's mother or grandmother suffered from Pyo if they have a increased risk of also contracting it? As it is different from cancer ect it could just be bad luck?

Maybe your question is the answer? The win has become more important than the dog....

Yes, but why? Aren't there enough breeders of German Shepherds for whom the dog is more important to be able to take a stand? As these deformed creatures are winning at shows, I guess not.

There are breeders who take a stand, they just don't win in the showring. I would rather a healthy dog who has never seen a showring. (Pic is not mine, its a stock image)

Sorry but those pics just reaffirm my view. That dog IS overangulated and I know the natural 3 point stack the GSD does, it should not look like that :'(

This is why I don't go near the ring, however I still know the standard and what should result from it, Roova you have not misunderstood the standard, that's the sad part!

So why are these dogs winning, for goodness sake. Wasn't there one recently who despite being unable to walk properly won either BIS or BOB somewhere??

Why are German Shepherd Breeders breeding dogs who, seemingly, will win in the show ring, but not be sound?

Idk :'( but as a lifelong enthusiast of the breed it makes me see red. I don't care what the show breeders think of my opinion, have seen so many pups from well known breeders lately who can't walk upright let alone stand upright, a blind man can see these dogs are not being bred to the standard. But hey if it wins in the showring....

Overangulation is NOT desirable in the GSD and neither is hocks sitting on the ground when the dog stands. The 3 point stand is the natural stance of the GSD and that is why dogs are stacked like that in the show ring.

Here is the dog considered the best in Germany 2 years in a row for comparison

and again (younger photo)

I must admit I was a bit shocked by the photos of the GSD too. It doesn't seem to stand over its front legs properly and resting on the back leg pasterns looks painful for the dog. It might be a bad photo but either way it was standing like that. I started looking at photos on the web (maybe not a good idea) but came across this one which is a GSDCA National Gold Medal dog in Oz. It's also the sire of a number of winning dogs. If overangulation is not desireable, how can they be winning looking like this? It doesn't look like its moving easily at all.

The standard calls for "The topline flows from the set on of the neck, over the high long withers and over the straight back to the slightly sloping croup without a noticeable break" These winning dogs seem to have a roach back, not straight? Sorry for my ignorance if I've misunderstood the standard.

Sorry but those pics just reaffirm my view. That dog IS overangulated and I know the natural 3 point stack the GSD does, it should not look like that :'(

This is why I don't go near the ring, however I still know the standard and what should result from it, Roova you have not misunderstood the standard, that's the sad part!

Some interesting photos there, especially of the breeds I've never seen before! I didn't know there were two types of Beagle - 13" and 15". Some of the call names are great especially Bob the Stafford and Ian the Dalmatian! I also really liked seeing drool on the Dogue and a person in the photo with the Lab :laugh:

Jed, can you please explain 'stacking' to a non-showy? Some of the dogs end up looking unbalanced or unsure of themselves - 'tentative' - to me, as if their hind ends aren't as strong as their front. Is this part of the 'stacking' process or just the way the breeds are meant to look? In particular the GSD but also the Irish Setter, for example. Even the Golden Retriever looks a bit different in style to those I've seen here (admittedly I haven't seen many in show condition).

Opening a HUGE can of worms here and preparing to get massively flamed :p Partly it is how they stack them but partly the way they breed them too due to overangulation. The way they stack them so basically have their hocks touching the ground makes them look weak and unbalanced (personally).

Sorry stack is basically to me how you stand a dog in the show ring.

I've seen lots of threads about this over the years and not being a GSD fan (sorry, bad experience as a kid) and not knowing much about showing I don't get involved. It just seemed odd that some of the other dogs looked 'tentative' but more exaggerated in the photo of the GSD. Perhaps the photos were all taken at the end of a long day. I'm interested enough now to go and look at the GSD videos to see how they walk - a couple I've seen at the park look crouched down and not really running smoothly. Do they actually have to 'run' at the shows or just walk, jog and stand?

I don't agree with what has been done to the GSD in the showring so i don't go near it and i don't own the show type of GSD either, so someone who shows their GSD would have to answer those questions. The exaggeration is what is desired though, you could try to stack my shepherds like that till the cows come home but their backs still won't slope and their hocks certainly won't touch the ground, their construction just won't allow it :) They gait upright and don't have the crouching look to them. It upsets me to see ppl say they would have once considered getting one but now won't go near them The market is flooded with the show type but the shepherds of old do still exist :)

Some interesting photos there, especially of the breeds I've never seen before! I didn't know there were two types of Beagle - 13" and 15". Some of the call names are great especially Bob the Stafford and Ian the Dalmatian! I also really liked seeing drool on the Dogue and a person in the photo with the Lab :laugh:

Jed, can you please explain 'stacking' to a non-showy? Some of the dogs end up looking unbalanced or unsure of themselves - 'tentative' - to me, as if their hind ends aren't as strong as their front. Is this part of the 'stacking' process or just the way the breeds are meant to look? In particular the GSD but also the Irish Setter, for example. Even the Golden Retriever looks a bit different in style to those I've seen here (admittedly I haven't seen many in show condition).

Opening a HUGE can of worms here and preparing to get massively flamed :p Partly it is how they stack them but partly the way they breed them too due to overangulation. The way they stack them so basically have their hocks touching the ground makes them look weak and unbalanced (personally).

Sorry stack is basically to me how you stand a dog in the show ring.

Oh dear me!

Never understood the point of posting things like this. Unless the OP ie known personally to you why the judgement?

EdmundH. YOU were the one telling everyone "in your opinion" of course, that they were wrong. You came into a lighthearted thread with all guns blazing and when people didn't go WOW WOW WOW, this guy is tops, you get all huffy.

You need to take a reality check, mate, and, if you want anyone to take you seriously or to even bother to read anything you post perhaps you might reconsider your posting style.

Most people's dogs are not working dogs and, the last time I looked, my dogs were dogs and not humans.

Anyway, for the others who, like me, are all wrong in feeding their dogs in the evening - LOL - I am about to have a late late breakfast and the dogs will have to do with a snack.

+1

I personally don't feed in the morning due to them being too sluggish to do anything on a full stomach and the risk of bloat is something i am paranoid about.

Brindle comeback story here: http://www.k9-pines.com/germanshepherds_Brindle.html

Most interesting. Thank you for sharing! :)

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

Yes, hence the wording 'these days' ;)

edited to add little winky eye, lol.

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

Brindle has always been a colour of the gsd, it was one of the originals along with white. A very unpopular opinion but no i don't care how it has been introduced back, I'm just glad it is back. [/b]I agree with woofnhoof if colours are occurring naturally and don't cause health issues I don't believe they should be 'selectively bred out' just] cause those who make the standard don't like them.

Yes, I acknowledged that. It was how it made a 'comeback' from extinction which raised the questions...and anyone would think that you're approving to falsify a line for the sake of a colour...?

There has been picture proof over generations of bridle colouring on otherwise b/t sheps in the US for a while now so I don't personally believe it ever died out completely. I don't know the breeder accused so cant comment on that, maybe they crossbred maybe they didn't, Though no it doesn't bother me that much, its in the US and the colour hence the dogs will never be accepted here anyway. They van do what they want, same as everyone, none of my business. More important things to worry about. I just personally feel its odd that such a hooha is made over colours that are not 'of the standard'. No good dog is a bad colour :D

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

Yes, hence the wording 'these days' ;)

edited to add little winky eye, lol.

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

Brindle has always been a colour of the gsd, it was one of the originals along with white. A very unpopular opinion but I don't care how it has been introduced back, I'm just glad it is back. I agree with woofnhoof if colours are occurring naturally and don't cause health issues I don't believe they should be 'selectively bred out' just cause those who make the standard don't like them.

I adore the panda gsds as well as solid liver and liver/tan. Also a fan of the bridles, big follower of a breeder in the US who breeds them :) Pretty sure the blue/tan and liver/tan are recognised there, but never really looked into it.

Oh dear, here we go again. Why does this pop up so often? People please, the original Rottweiler also known a hundred years ago as the farmers dog, the butchers dog etc was a much larger dog than our current show winners. For heavens sake go look at the history of the dog before you deride somebody. http://www.donnerbergrottweilers.com/rottweiler-history.html.'>http://www.donnerbergrottweilers.com/rottweiler-history.html. The breed was "discovered" and imported to England, for show the weight and height was standardized. Look it up. http://www.donnerbergrottweilers.com/rottweiler-history.html . Male 64 Kilo Female 56. The dog then traveled to America where it was bred and shown, the American standard looked for a dog of 48 kilo. Our modern show standard. There are still a few breeders in Europe breeding the original dogs as working dogs. The show standard has changed the breed to a more compact, less jowly and slobbery dog. At least rottweiler breeders have not gone the way of the new GSD breeders, better know lately as the German seal dog. These days Rottweilers are a slightly smaller more compact dog but still retaining all the good features and charisma of the old rottweilers. I would suggest first asking for a registered pedigree, then check out the dogs. Personally I would recommend going to an established breeder and getting a good strong healthy pup rather than buying a pig in a poke. You may be lucky and have found one of the working dog breeders. There are still a couple in Aust though they keep a low profile. I had those up until ten years ago but rarely bred them. Yes mine was an import and after the original dog passed on at 14 years I had his son for a further 12 years. I lost him when he was poisoned and we could not save him, not for want of trying. Those lines are not permitted in the show ring so if you intend showing forget it. Go to a registered show breeder.

There was a beautiful big Rottie boy who used to come to the park we go to in the arvos who was abt 70kgs, he was taller and broader than my boy and he really wasn't carrying that much weight, got around his daily business absolutely fine. Add another 10kgs onto him and yes he would of been quite fat. In saying that though this Rottie was tall so i am guessing he would of been much taller than the show standard. But when i picture how this dog looked at 70kgs he looked pretty ok. Probs could of come down to abt 67-68. He unfortunately died of a paralysis tick when he was 4 His owner lived on his own with him so he was just heartbroken

P.S. Please don't lump all the GSD breeders together, not all breed that type.

Edit to say the bloke i knew looked NOTHING like the poor rottie in that pic

Ooh I think I started that, didn't realise at the time the hype it would cause :laugh: Sorry can't remember how long ago it was, over a year I think? But I personally wouldn't desex a dog, esp a large breed dog that young. I was turned off a breeder for that reason, to me personally I felt it was a slap in the face, like an I don't trust you with my dog ect. Just how I personally felt.

If this is the thread you were looking for- http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/227852-question-about-de-sexing/page__p__5531419__fromsearch__1#entry5531419

I remember the days when I was excited about having a bitch in season, many many moons ago :laugh: Enjoy the excitement while it lasts, if you are like me you will be over it soon enough lol My girl is in atm, can't wait till she is finished! she seems to be a 4 month cycler...

OMG! That liver GSD is gorgeous!!

Isn't she just! Her name is Hope :) Lives with a breeder in the UK :)

So obviously a good dog is never a bad colour...but that being said, what is your favourite colour?

I love blue brindle and sable the best, but I have only owned one sable and no blue brindles at all.

So true, one such quote from the GSD founder is that no good dog is a bad colour :D

That being said some of my absolute fav colours of the GSD are not of the standard. I adore liver/tan and solid liver

And am also a sucker for the Panda colouring and Brindle which was one of the first original colours :)

Also a sucker for Black Sable :)

In my other fav breeds i love Choc-tri Border collies and Red/Tan Kelpies :)

What's the fuss? Is Quantas the only airline that will carry dogs to Aus?

As others have said, it is the principle of it. Its just like BSL for plane trips, when will it end? If ppl don't let them know how unacceptable it is then soon they will start adding the all the staffs, GSDs, Rotts, Dobes ect to the list.

I just met a pug at the dog park who's owner claimed she was pedigree - except she screamed of a multi generation cross time me as she was skinny with long legs and had a bit of a nose. Obviously the owners word on her pedigree can't be taken at face value, but what if she was? It is possible to get a pedigree pug with a nose? Ignoring the breed standard obviously because she failed on that count miserably.

Genuine question. I'm a pug person, I have two from awesome breeders and am fully aware of the limitations of the brachy breeds, but don't think popping out crosses and calling them pedigree is the answer (nor do I claim to have an answer, before someone jumps on me :laugh: )

We have a "Jug" at our park :p Jack x Pug. Apparently breeder is trying to lengthen the nose so they won't have breathing issues according to owners. At least they are not under the false impression the dog a pure pug lol

Babe and snow dogs? :)