dogsaremyworld

I'm just ignoring the JS case now, she has bought from a BYB, who has no prefix and if her breeding animal's where in fact on main and/or limited registration she is breaking the Code of Ethics of her state canine authority, and of the ANKC. She should be reported and suspended from showing and breeding activities, if in fact she was a participant, or a member of any of these organisations to begin with. It wasn't her first litter, and prefixes are sought well before you plan to breed, not during/and or after a mating. The larger issue here seems to be the utter confusion regarding terms. If we, on here can't establish what a purebred, or a pedigree, is, how the bleep are the general public, who have no idea about the intricacies of the purebred/pedigree dog world. In this day and age of breeder's outside the system simply saying what they want so they can charge extra for a pup, the language of dog's has become so twisted and confusing that really no one out there understands them. And now we are even complicating 'purebred'. Purebred dogs have always referred to something registrable, and identifiable by its record of registration. Now, it seems that a dog that looks like a breed can also be considered purebred as long as it looks the same. That is ridiculous, and completely defies any knowledge of genetics. I have an issue with dogs being rounded up for BSL being identified simply by the way they look, and I also have a problem of a dog being identified as purebred based on looks as well. People keep using the example of rescues - yes rescues identify dogs they are to help based on looks, but they sure as h**ll don't rehome them on the basis that they are purebred, or pedigree'd. These are the sorts of things, we as a community, need to define, and establish, so there is no doubt, when Mr Joe Public goes out to buy a purebred dog, that he realises there is only one way to get there - through a registered, reputable breeder, and not through other means.

My link A link to Wiki's definiton of purebred.

I made no implication what so ever that YOUR JS pup may have cocker spaniel in him. I was making a general point about dogs that look like a certain breed, and whose parents look like a certain breed may posess a great-great-great-great grandmother that is a totally different breed all together, and without the paperwork, and a record of registry of that dog you cannot prove that it is a purebred dog. Unfortunately alot of BYB'ers and puppy farmers seem to use the fact that the parents are pedigree as evidence that the pup is one as well. The tricks they play are disgusting. I have heard the most horrible tricks people have played to try and charge just that little extra for a purebred dog. I get so frustrated with breeders (not the puppy purchasers) who tell little fibs to make out a pup is something that it is not. You speak about this breeder as if she just didn't want the bother of getting a prefix, but she is just the same as a registered breeder. A prefix is neither hard, nor that expensive to get. And no reputable show person would be caught dead breeding outside the system, without a prefix. Because that would make them a BYB, at best, and or liable to prosecution and suspension from thier state canine authority. Even if as you say she is using 'registered' dogs to breed unregistered puppies she is breaking her state canine's Code of Ethics, and really should be reported. Your male pup, looks like a very cute and very gorgeous Japanese Spitz like pup. And the BYB you got him from seems to be of the higher quality (after all she let you view the parents, and see the establishment where they were born). He does look a little leggy, but alot of toy dogs go through a range of stages, so that is probably the answer. Whether he is pedigree, or purebred, will probably not affect the happy life the two of you will live together, and the love you will share with your very cute pup. But without that piece of paper he is not pedigree'd, and you cannot prove that he is purebred either.

This is a quote from the Dogs NSW homepage of thier website. Dogs NSW: Promoting responsible dog ownership We are an association which promotes the welfare of purebred dogs and responsible breeding. Come to us to learn about purchasing and caring for dogs; how to become a responsible breeder; or to get involved in a fun canine sport like agility, herding, obedience, retrieving and more. Note how it says 'purebred' dogs and not pedigree or pedigree purebred dogs. Simply purebred. Now I am pretty sure that they are not looking to promote dogs whose ancestory cannot be proved, or dogs sold outside of the register (ie in the case of a breeder selling pups without a prefix).

I find this topic interesting as it makes me wonder if the title of the board really should be 'Australia's Pedigreed Pure Bred Dog Community' :p :laugh: Remember when Dogs Qld made that HUGE bluff, and the president of the organisation appeared in front of a sign that said "for purebread dogs" - someone should tell them that it wasn't just the mis-spelling they had got wrong, they had also left off the word pedigree as well.

I think this is another game of semantics. A purebred dog is a dog that has a record of ancestory proving that it's ancestors are purebred dogs. Yes, when breed's were created they were made with a mix of other breeds, but this is a LONG way back in it's history (I think it is a least five generations back but I'm not sure) Most modern registered dogs would have many more than five generations back of purebred registered dogs in thier history. A pedigree dog is the same thing. A dog that has been bred by a registered breeder, with registered parents, and the progeny has papers outlining it's ancestors. I think trying to muddy the waters and determine that they are two different things is wrong. A dog may look like a certain breed, act like a certain breed, but have something very different in it's past. I think if you rescue a dog without paper's then there is no way you can say that it is a purebred dog. I suppose you could take your dog to the vet and do one of those 4 generation DNA tests, to prove or disprove it, but even then you are only going back four generations. I'll give you an example. A FB 'friend' of mine owns an undesexed 'Maltese' and and and undesexed 'Australian Silky'. She recently bred these two dogs (to my absolute disgust) and had three pups - a black, an apricot, and a blue brindle. She claims these two dogs are 'purebred', but one sure as hell must of something different to those two breeds in it's past (I suspect a Staffy,but can't be sure) to come out with coat colours that neither of the two 'purebred' breeds possess. I think we should stop trying to define dogs that are outside of the ANKC registry as purebred. You cannot prove that they are 'purebred' by the way they look, or act. The only way to prove they are either purebred or pedigree, is by thier record of ancestory. I have no issue with people saying they have rescued a GSD from the pound, but to take that dog, breed it to another dog that looks like a GSD and then sell the pups as purebred, that is wrong and unethical. I think the larger issue is why the need to define a dog as purebred in the first place, if you did not purchase the dog within the ANKC system. Why does it matter? If you rescued a dog, surely you chose the dog based on it's temperament and looks, and not on the fact that it looked like a purebred dog. I have never ever seen a dog advertised in the pound referred to as a purebred or a pedigree dog (not saying that it doesn't happen, but I was under the belief that for legal reasons they cannot advertise something that they cannot prove). Why can't you just say it is a rescue silky, or a rescue malt, etc, etc, why does it have to be a purebred? People who rescue dogs have undertaken a noble, and life saving act. If your dog is not from a registered breeder, with registered parents on the main registry, with papers issued from the ANKC I don't think it can be considered purebred. Unless you can prove it's ancestory, you have no idea what lies in it's genetic past. When breeds are first created, dogs of different breeds are combined, but even this is recorded. I think it is grossly unfair to the great majority of the public who are not as educated as we all are, when we have terms that are so confusing. I personally have seen; - an ad for a purebred cavoodle (both it's parents were cavoodles you see) - people registered with the local council as a business, saying they are registered breeders - people who have bred two limited registered dogs, selling show potential pups, without a prefix - people issuing thier own pedigrees - ads for purebred dogs, when one of the parent's was a labradoodle - people selling show quality labradoodles - people saying thier business name is thier prefix - pups with Champion bloodlines, with papers, from a breeder with no prefix, and not a member of Dogs SA, and do not show - Chi x, silky x, malt x, pups - you can only have two parents for a cross. It goes on and on and on. I won't bore you anymore - but it is so confusing to the general public, that people get bamboozled by all the terms and definitions and end up buying something they think is one thing but is really just from a BYB'er, or a puppy farmer.

outside? :) I presume the spitz is being taught to go outside? a little dog toilet, made using fake turf ..so that texture will be a part trigger for when she's out on grass ..rather than maybe a magazine on a couch, or newspaper on a carpet :p Toilet training is a full time job ..tiny little bladders, and no chance of 'holding on' for months ... They both look cute - thanks for the photos . How old is the spitz boy? He looks tall for a puppy ... I was about to ask the same thing. Are you sure he's a pure JS? He looks normal for a JS puppy at that age, they go all leggy. Plus depending on the lines he comes from will dictate how big he will be. If his parents are from the older stock he might be larger than 37cm. Pictures are decieving when it comes to their size. The only reason I asked is from previous posts I got the impression the dog was younger and he's from a BYB and we all know how these things go sometimes. I am very aware of how leggy and strange some puppies look at this age. I've just come back from overseas, so am re-joining this saga. Interesting that this JS BYB'er just had a 5 month old pup laying around ready for someone to take home that day! Must have been the pick of the litter. All the other posts made it sound much younger. Wonder if the Pom breeder knew her teeny baby, who is too small to go out in the rain, was being sent to live with a 5 month old JS, and not an 8 week old? Interesting.....

I think this will be the last time I post on this topic. It is just making me extremely frustrated and almost angry to read. There are a couple of things the beggars belief; If you are so annoyed and p'od by the registered community, why did you get your pom from a registered breeder, but not your Spitz boy? What colour were the papers of the parents and grandparents of the Spitz pup? I bet they weren't all blue. Which means that some person has taken someone else's lines and bred with them, probably against the wishes of the breeder. If they were blue, no breeder would want pup's bred outside the system, which again means the person who bred the pup, has taken someone else's lines, and is breeding probably without consent. What possible reason would a person have to breed two purebred parents, with main registration, without having a prefix? Other than money. Having them 'purebred' means they can charge just that bit more. You are teaching, and encouraging a dog to go to the toilet inside. It doesn't matter what size the puddles are. Once the Jap Spitz boy gets a wiff of that, he'll be doing it inside too. Especially when he starts maturing, particularly if he is not desexed. The Cavalier who died of MVD at 4 months. That is extremely young to die of a degenerative disease. Which probaly means that the pup had a fairly severe heart murmur from birth. The first things vet's check in Cavaliers, and other toy dogs, is thier heart. How was this missed? Or did the pup not have a vet check at 8 weeks? Also if both parent's are clear of MVD and a heart murmur, it means the pup cannot get one. Which means that the breeder didn't do health testing. Did you ask to see both parent's heart clear certificates? If you cannot provide papers for your pup, it means they are not purebred dogs. Yes, the parent's and grandparents may be look, act and feel like purebred dogs, but without papers showing a lineage you cannot be sure that the great grandmother wasn't a cocker spaniel, or a samoyed, or a mutt for that chance. I know it sounds cruel but it's the hard truth. You were on here recently asking for advice, and have ignored it. Which, by sounds of it, is not your fault. You have been taken for a ride by a byb'er who has convinced you that you are buying a purebred dog, most likely charging full pedigree prices, when all you really have is an undocumented dog that sure looks a hell of a lot like a Jap Spitz. And that is the most frustrating part. It's not your fault. It is the dodgy people out there who play with the truth, charge heaps of money for mutts, but spin it to sound like they are selling you pedigree dogs. It's wrong. They have bought a dog off a registered breeder, or two, and then bred them outside the registry, which I can tell you right now, no registered breeder would want that to happen to thier stock. So this person has taken advantage of you and the breeder they originally purchased the dog off. And comes off with close to $1000 per dog. Its wrong.

No I have not read all your previous threads, I do not have the time or inclination. As I said this thread is typical of all newbies who ask for advice and then ignore it, so why ask? Standard advice given out on this forum is to seek a dog from a registered breeder whose parents have been health tested for known diseases. Other standard advice includes seek out a breeder by word of mouth, who is reputable and will support buyers after the purchase of the pup. Did you do that? You take pot luck with any breeder if you do not research adequately. Your chances of issues are far reduced by opting to go with a reputable registered breeder who is aware of potential health issues in their lines and are working at/succeeding in eliminating them. Obviously we wish this for all buyers of BYB dogs. What an idiotic statement! "Obviously we wish this for all buyers of BYB dogs" WOW, you are a nice, caring person, wishing suffering on dogs from BYB situations . My dogs did come from registered stock anyway .... I suppose you missed that part as well Seeking out a reputable breeder by word of mouth? how am I supposed to do that? Give Dogs Victoria a call, lol? It's easier said than done; What part of my post didn't you understand? I get that you're not expected to read each and every post but you've obviously read the post about my past experience with registered breeders, they health checked their breeding dogs.....hasn't worked to my advantage I'm sure there are some great breeders out there, no doubt, but word of mouth doesn't find its way to me. As for word of mouth - go to a showground when there is an All breeds show on. Approach the breeder's with dogs that are the same breed as the one you are looking for - ask them questions, ask them if they have pups, ask them if they know of any breeder's who do have dogs,etc, etc. Ring the puppy officer of the breed club you are looking for, and they can refer you to one of thier members. And yes, you can ring Dogs Vic, and ask them what breeder's advertise in thier gazette.

As for your original question - I would say that it looks like a fox face to me, but it is hard to tell at such a young age. As for your Spitz boy. It does not make him any less a dog but it does not make him a purebred dog if the breeder did not have a prefix. He is not on the purebred register therefore he is not a purebred. I'm sorry but that's the truth, and I have seen you ask for advice on here before and then completely ignore it. I know you may of had bad experiences with registered breeder's before, and I have as well, but buying from an unregistered breeder, means that you have most likely bought from a byb. Just because his parents and grandparent's have papers does not matter. He is not a registered purebreed dog, no matter what you say, unless you have in your hand a piece of paper with an ANKC with your pup's name on it. Im sorry it sounds harsh but it's the truth. Registered does not automatically mean reputable. There are other things you need to check for first, and in the case of your Cavalier, if you had asked the breeder for evidence of health testing for heart murmurs and MVD in the parent's you could of avoided that. Most reputable breeders check thier stock for heart disease, and can provide copies of certificates from specialists. A reputable breeder would also help you replace the dog you so tragically lost, or help you source one. I hope nothing goes wrong with your Spitz pup. But you have bought from a byb'er so you have greatly heightened the risk of the dog not turning out in regards to size, temperament, and inherited diseases.

Sorry didn't read your last post - so glad you went and tried and had fun! Will watch out for you two in results of the formal season next year!

You can absolutely do agility with a tibbie in australia. Many people already do. i would do them with my tibbies, except I can't get a reliable recall off lead in public places with them. LOL.

A Cavie - adaptable, eager to please, will walk with you one day, vege out the next - they are happy just to be with you! If they are going to spend long periods alone, they can get quite upset. If you could find the RIGHT pup - from parents who are very relaxed, don't get anxious, and have adapted to alone time, it might work. But this could take a fair amount of time. Cavaliers are ultimately quite adaptable, love thier owner to death, and can be quite clingy to those they love. But readily accept not exercising, and I find grooming quite easy - just a quick comb of thier featherings and ears once a day while they lie in my lap while we watch TV. A pug would be great - but you would have to watch thier activity during hot weather, as some pugs have trouble with breathing and temperature regulation in high temps. But otherwise - they meet your needs perfectly! They do snore and snortle but are so loving, energetic and fun! A tibbie, in your particular situation, would drive you crazy. Though they don't look it they are little watch dogs, and love nothing more to 'guard' thier homes. If you lived in an upper floor apartment, they would love nothing more to stand in the window, look down at the street and warn you of all the 'danger's' passing by! They are REALLY intelligent too, some have even been known to be vengeful when annoyed by something you do, and so leaving them at home for long periods could be quite destructive. I own three, and love them to bits, but they are not for everyone, and definately not for any situation. Pom's do bark alot, and I don't know whether your neighbours would thank you for that. I too love bichons, and at one time was seriously considering getting one - until one of my friend's who shows one told me that it would simply 'ruin my life' in regards to keeping up with the coat. Even though that was to keep one in show clip, keeping one in pet clip would require either regular trips to a groomer, or you to buy the equipment and learn to do it yourself. Thier fur grows CONSTANTLY, like a big poof ball, and matts easily, and keeping them neat and tidy takes time, money and loads of patience. Keeping them white is another issue. Havanese are part of the same family of breed's, and thier coat requirements are less, but still quite time consuming. To keep thier coat long would require you to layer brush pretty much everyday, or again pay a groomer to keep them clipped off, or you to do it yourself. Easier than a bichon, and thier personalities are similiar. I don't know much about frenchies, except they are ADORABLE, but I do know to get one from the right place is really expensive. Whichever breed you decide, please, please, please, please buy from a breeder who; Is REGISTERED with the state controlling body - ie Dogs SA, Dogs NSW, Dogs QlD, etc. This means they have a PREFIX. Is issuing papers with the sale of the pup - if you want to show these will be called 'main', if you don't they will be called 'limited'. Is prepared for you to do an inspection of the property, and see the parents of the pups. Sometimes the father will be a stud that has been paid for, and therefore lives with someone else. Has done health testing for thier dogs - and has certificates that you can see. Your puppy; should be at least 8 weeks old before coming home (some of the top breeders keep thier dogs longer) be microchipped before sale has at least thier first vaccinations is up to date on worming has passed a vet check. Don't take any bull from people who sway on these points. If your dog is not from a breeder who has a prefix, and does not come with either main or limited papers from your state canine body, then it is not a purebred dog - doesn't matter what anyone says. Attend local shows and talk to people who exhibit the various breeds, and see the dogs in person, and ask them about the things you want in a dog. Ask them if they know any reputable breeder's names. Remember registered does not automatically mean reputable! When first approaching a breeder to buy a puppy, ask for photos AND a copy of the pup's pedigree. Sometimes, because the the state authorities can take some time, this will not be available to them. In that case ask them to send a copy of both the mother and the father's blue papers through. This way you can see what the pup's ancestors are like, and in most cases, can look them up on Dogzonline Breed profiles, and have a look and see what sort of dogs are behind yours. If the papers they email you are NOT blue, they are not a purebred pup. Please, I beg you to do these things. It sounds like you are doing your homework, and it would be a shame for you to end up with a dog that does not suit your family because it's temperament is not as described by the breed standards.

outside? :) I presume the spitz is being taught to go outside? a little dog toilet, made using fake turf ..so that texture will be a part trigger for when she's out on grass ..rather than maybe a magazine on a couch, or newspaper on a carpet :p Toilet training is a full time job ..tiny little bladders, and no chance of 'holding on' for months ... They both look cute - thanks for the photos . How old is the spitz boy? He looks tall for a puppy ... I was about to ask the same thing. Are you sure he's a pure JS? Yes I am very sure he is pure Japanese Spitz. I have seen quite a few at dog shows and owned one before so am very familiar with the breed. His breeder has both mum & dad on show, running around in the lounge room and also the grandparents which are now desexed. Both grandparents have papers, so do the parents but the breeder doesn't have a prefix per se. Then he is not a registered pure breed pup. They are both cute, but you have not bought from a registered breeder, if the person does not have a prefix.

Being a Cavalier, training is ESSENTIAL. they can be quite a handful in the ring (we have 6) especially from baby puppy stage. There is loads of info in the links above, but breed specifically - Get them used to walking around on a lead with thier head up, have the lead nice and high right under thier chin, which usually makes thier topline look ALOT better. Easy said, not so easy done. I think that's one of the most important things with Cavies! Teach it to stand on a table, try in front of a mirror - front legs should be straight up and down like the number 11, and the back legs stretched appropriately so that the topline is level. Again keep the lead nice and high under the chin and encourage it to put it's head up. As with other breeds, get your pup used to being handled and its mouth being examined, first by family members, and then by as many people as you can. Try and use thier 'positive energy'. Judges seem to LOVE cavies that are happy in the ring, wagging thier tail, so its a fine line to walk between getting the pup to behave, and beating thier personality out of it - don't be too harsh, especially while young. Don't string the dog up when moving - that is forcing it's head up by holding the lead high (above your shoulder) it makes the dogs movement plaid (kick out its front feet) At first when you start at 3 months in the ring, as a pup your Cavie may spin, jump, leap - do anything but walk really - don't stress too much, pretty much all Cavie pups seem to do this, so don't freak out too much, but do keep practicing. And lastly, I have found most Cavalier people to be really quite friendly, so try and introduce yourself to some of them, and get some tips. Don't worry about the competition, go and have some fun and enjoy the day, and if you win it's a bonus!

I agree, you should not sell to someone just for breeding, or someone who did not believe in the same things as you. But we have been showing now for over 39 years - not just with Cavaliers, with great success at local, interstate and Royal shows. Despite the fact that all the Cavaliers I have owned have eventually turned out sick or suffering from great genetic faults such as patella's I have managed to title 3 of them before they sucumbed to thier diseases. I have never asked for a dog primarily for breeding, but rather to put in the show ring first, and eventually breed with them, IF they turned out to be breeding quality. When approaching the 'top' kennels I have offered to co-own the dog, sign any contract they care to offer me, and even only breed with thier permission regarding what dog and when, etc, etc. I have never been blacklisted, pissed anyone off, am great friends with many in the show world, done ANYTHING dodgy - in fact it would be the opposite. I have had 8 Cavaliers from 6 different breeders that were sold to me on main register, show potential. Because of thier faults (patellas, heart murmurs, etc) I have not bred in my 15 years. Less scrupulous people would of, and if i had a dollar for each time I had been told to 'take my chances' I would be a millionaire! I have been promised throughout those years HUNDREDS of puppies from great bloodlines. I get my hopes up, only to have them dashed. Something ALWAYS happens. Not with dogs, but always with bitches. i understand why, but it is still very frustrating. I WILL NOT breed from crap, unhealthy dogs, or dogs who do not meet my strict requirements, and that has meant I have had nothing to breed from, so really I am NOT a breeder, but just a showie with a big dream.

Please tell me where too look!?! I KNOW there are healthy Cavaliers out there that would be FANTASTIC in my breeding programme, the problem is those quality breeders will not reply my emails, or if they do, I never hear back from them when litters are born. I know I am not alone in this. Maybe in the 'pet' world it is easier, but when you are trying to establish a breeding programme you need healthy, well constructed bitches. And they are rare to be able to obtain.

My link I don't understand what you mean by your definition of 'true genetic disease'? What do you mean? Are you saying because you can effectively breed out a problem by putting an affected dog to a clear dog that in some situations over time you can breed it out, so therefore it is not a 'true genetic disease'? The mode of inheritance's are different depending on what genetic disease you are discussing, for example for patella luxation's they don't know exactly what way the gene for that particular disease is passed on (although the KC in UK are working currently on finding it) But for others the mode of inheritance can be tracked, and DNA tests are available that can detect the prescence of that gene, and then a percentage likelyhood of puppies born affected/carriers/clear can be established, depending on whether the mode is autosomal recessive, or dominant, or polygenic, etc, etc - a great website explaining this can be found here: http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/patterns.htm#ad As most people are aware, just because an animal is not 'affected' by a disease does not mean that it is not a carrier, and can produce pups that are affected, or carriers, who just continue to pass the genetic trait down through the lines. Cavaliers, like all dog breeds suffer from genetic diseases. It's not just Cavaliers, even mutts have health problems. But, due to thier popularity, the quality of dogs being bred across the WHOLE breed is dropping substansially (not just from a health viewpoint but also construction). It's sad, that due to their great temperaments, amazing looks, and endless lovability they have become HUGELY popular and therefore there are a number of people - puppy farmers, BYB's, and even less than ethical registered breeders who simply see the dollar signs above thier puppies heads as they are born. They obviously too, have attracted some less than flattering media attention, which has given them a bad name as well. There are some amazing quality breeders out there, who have amazing, healthy, happy dogs. Unfortunately, for the general public, who are buying our beautiful breed for thier amazing points, they do not see/and or understand the dividing lines, and lump ALL breeders of Cavaliers in the one basket, so all those pups born from puppy farms, etc, are seen in the same light as those bred by registered, ethical breeders. Even some of the dodgy ads out there from puppy farmers, and BYB's claim that the pups have 'papers' and the breeders are 'registered' when they are definately NOT. Very confusing. So unfortunately, the breed's repuation is dropping due to the number of factors I outlined above. But I also believe there are some problems within the registered community as well. - The healthy, well constructed dogs, are greatly limited within the breed, even to other show people. Due to the amount of people out there who are only to happy to take advantage of great dogs, alot of top breeders will not even consider selling dogs they are not keeping for themselves on main registration, in particular bitches. This means that the gene pool of those happy, healthy dogs are largely unavailable to the general gene pool of show animals. I completely understand this hesitation - people have worked for lifetimes creating thier lines, and fight hard to protect them from people who have no ethics, or morals, but unfortunately it becomes hard for those who WANT to breed Cavaliers to gain access to healthy lines. - There is a small element within the dog community who are quite defensive, and deny the existence of genetic diseases (this is definately NOT unique to Cavies.) - When registered breeders apply for thier prefix, there is not enough thorough information given about genetics. I was definately suprised, as I was excited to learn when the bundle came when I became a breeder 8 years ago, only to find there was NO info on mode of inheritance, or types of genes, etc, and there are no in depth questions in the test to identify what knowledge the breeders have of genetic diseases, and leaving research up to the individual. This means that some breeders really have no idea, or a confused knowledge about inherited diseases. (Again definately NOT limited to Cavaliers, but ALL dog breeds) - There are some terrible unethical breeders out there, who simply don't care, and I have heard of situations where people have lied about thier dogs and thier ancestors health status's, and lie about thier kennel's health testing programs. ( not limited to Cavies) - I have heard of some breeders, who even though they do health test, they ignore the results, and breed anyway, especially if they believe that it will only produce 'carriers'. There seems to be some out there who believe as long as they do not produce 'affected' animals, then they are not breeding genetic faults. (again not limited to Cavies) I have been in love with the Cavalier for over 15 years. When I went to buy my first one (all that time ago) I researched diligently for a well constructed, well moving, happy, healthy dog from a registered breeder to start showing. I did all the checks and balances, but he got a heart murmur at age 3 and a half. I knew I could not breed from him, and he was finding it hard to get around the show ring, so I decided then to get another one, to show, and by then I had the showing bug, I wanted to become a registered breeder, and produce my own little pups, I researched what lines I wanted to go with, and approached all of the breeders I wished to emulate hoping amongst hope they would offer me a pup. They didn't - most didn't even reply to me, or if they did they said that they would contact me when they had thier next litter. I never heard from them again. I eventually found a breeder, who would sell me a girl on main rego, and her dogs were distantly related to some of the other dogs that I had hoped for. Unfortunately the bitch that was meant to be mine died tragically at 11 weeks. So she offered me a boy. I took him, fell in love, and started showing him to much success, despite the fact that he was a bit small. Soon she contacted me and told me that a friend of hers with 'similar lines' was willing to sell me a bitch. I was ecstatic!! My breeding plans were underway! Six months later, it became clear that she had patella luxation in both knees. The breeder assured me that it was a 'one-off', she had never had ANY problems in her lines, and that she would offer me a replacement bitch from different breeding. I waited a year for that girl. She ended up with a problem with her digestion, that was never quite diagnosed properly, and sadly she died after I had to put her down cause she was basically starving to death. I was back at the beginning AGAIN. But I did not falter, I loved the breed, and was determined to become a ethical, responsible breeder, despite the fact that at that stage I only had one boy that had NO problems. Other than the fact that he has EXTREME seperation anxiety, he was perfect and I even titled him. I was again started a determined search, trying desperately to get quality animals, that would achieve in the show ring, be faithful companions, and be part of a quality, researched breeding programme. Again, none of the top, top, top breeders got back to me, and so once again I tried a different breeder who showed reguarly, and had lines related to some of the best dogs in the country, who assured me that thier dogs were healthy. To cut a long story short, over my entire time in the breed, I have had; 8 Cavaliers 4 boys and 4 girls. 3 of them died tragically before the age of five from inherited diseases. 2 have had patella luxation 2 have had no problems and 1 has had more than one genetic fault. ALL of them were from registered, show breeders, on MAIN registration, sold as 'show potential' animals. ALL of them did well in the show ring, winning challenges and classes in groups, even the ones with patella luxtion. I have had ZERO litters of puppies, because I have not had the opportunity to breed from animals who are healthy. I know many would simply still breed them, but I cannot bring myself to breed from affected animals. I desperately want to be a responsible, ethical breeder, and for the life of me, I cannot manage to find them. The two I have that are healthy, are both boys, and I cannot breed two boys! I have sent thousands of emails, been promised dozens of puppies, and have ended up heartbroken, and devastated that my dreams have been dashed. I know I will probably cop some flak for this, but this is my reality. I have stopped showing this year, as my youngest boy is now over 9 and is no longer competitive. This is not by choice, it's just because I don't have anything to show. Don't get me wrong, despite this I still LOVE Cavaliers, and I know there are breeders out there who are ethical and have healthy dogs. I want to be one of them! I would never recommend someone NOT get a Cavalier, because they are just the best dogs out there! But I would recommend anyone buying one definately buy from a REGISTERED, REPUTABLE breeder, who is prepared to provide you with thier dogs HEALTH TESTING, and not just SAY they have healthy dogs!

How very strange... I've never heard this from a CKCS owner. It's rare to find a Cavalier owner with just one Cav and those with only one wish they could have more but can't only due to personal circumstances and not the breed. As with any breed - registered, reputable breeders will do everything in their power to ensure their puppies do not develop such problems as MVD, SM/CM. The major problems come from inexperienced breeders, backyard breeders and puppy farmers. Blackdogs - you do need to be aware of these key health issues and question the breeder in regards to these http://www.cavaliersa.com/health.htm. The other issues Arcane mentioned are rare and I wouldn't say are common to the breed. My Cavalier, Lady, is 1 year and 8 months old. She has never had any medical issues. However, I do have pet health insurance as I know problems can arise over time (although, I would have this for any breed of dog). She has been an absolute ray of sunshine in my life and I cannot recommend this breed enough to people who want a loving companion. Lady is friendly with strangers, children, and she never barks. She does suffer some separation anxiety as she wants to be around people all the time. Cavaliers are recommended to people who are at home most of the time (I work from home, so this suits me). When I am in a position to get another dog, I will most definitely be getting another Cavalier. Eighteen months old is not quite old enough to give a complete health picture of an ENTIRE breed. We have five Cavaliers, none of whom showed problems until they were 2 - 3 years old. At eighteen months old I thought all of ours were wonderful as well. They are exactly what you say - lovely temperament, great with strangers, kids, and ever so loving. Then they get sick. We have one with patella's and another with a heart murmur and another with an undiagnosable stomach problem that causes her to be sick every 3-4 days. All from different, reputable, registered, breeders. I, myself, am a registered breeder and am SO disheartened with Cavies and the health problems that I am considering going to another breed. It is heartbreaking to watch something you love so much suffer so greatly, and at the same time ruin years of carefully considered breeding programmes.

It was wrong of vet to say that to you. You could have put the cat through the proper channels and put your name on it if it came up for destruction. Now you have a cat that someone may be pining over and that one day, you may be asked to hand back. It is possible the cat escaped and traveled from the area of residence, so the owners may not have had the opportunity to see the posters. Further, not everyone is aware of lost and found internet sites. I don't think you are bad people for doing this, just misinformed and misguided, to the potential detriment of some grieving pet owner. Agreed, it was wrong of you to keep the cat, and wrong of the vet to advise you to do so.

Does anyone know of some cheapish accomodation near Taree showgrounds that takes pets?

LIKE!!

I think that some larger scale not for profit rescues charge far to much for thier dogs. It's not just the sale of the dogs that large rescues get money from, they also get donations from the public to help them run it. Now, I know that the smaller ones do not recieve this sort of support, and need to charge a decent chunk of money to help recoup fees. But the large, prominent ones, get both the large sale price, public donations, and benefit from volunteer labour. I think it is wrong, you would think the most important thing is finding the dogs the 'right home' and not just if the people can afford to pay for them, and not how much they can recoup for them. I think the philosophy that the more the dog costs, the more value someone places on it is not only wrong but quite elitist. Im sure there are people out there who would make quite loving, caring, homes who cannot afford one large chunk of money to invest in a dog. Plus just because someone has shelved out heaps of money for it, does not guarantee a life long home. But I don't agree with giving them away for free, that is also wrong.

EXACTLY .... many congrats to ALL who have obtained this new title (including me..VBG) .... Agreed, congratulations to all of those who have obtained the title! Did not realise what a can of worms i was opening when starting the thread!