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Are you asking huski bedazzledx2??? I took my girls to the local oval tonight so I could do some duration heelwork with Kenz. She was brilliant but I only was asking for 10 paces, 22 paces then 17 paces but she didn't miss a beat and it was seriously nice work - pushy but not so over the top to the point where she crabs. Probably could have asked for more but since we have been a bit lazy with our training I set the bar low so she was successful. Hope to raise it pretty quickly though . I know with Kenzie I have made much more effort in ensuring she is just as happy to play a game as she is for her food and toys. Means I always have something I can reinforce her with and she gives me everything whenever I want it.

Yep Kenz is always in drive , but I love that about her and I also made sure from day 1 that was the case. Thats not to say she doesn't chill out/switch off but I encouraged the revving up so when I want it she does.

huski its one I have already had in part via email with him but thought I would extend it to see what other people's views were. It actually came out in part of some observations of my two at the Dances with Dog comp last weekend. It was Kenzie's very first ANKC comp and probably the first time I had asked her for that length of a routine without a "reward" as such but since she has also only been through a handful of club training ring sessions I haven't yet developed a pre-ring routine or a post-ring routine so I used it as a big of an experiment. Unlike Ness who always needs a reward the moment we have finished Kenzie had no issue with keeping her enthusiasm up for the 4 routines and she wasn't always rewarded immediately upon finishing. In fact I had a bit of a battle to keep her drive lowered in her two freestyle routines as she was getting very over the top. Even her heelwork to music routine there was no loss of drive and this is from a dog who was put in a situation where she wasn't super confident, yet she was still drivey and up at the end and who probably hasn't done anything of that length without a reward.

Question huski - do you believe some dogs are effectively always in drive. With Kenzie I have only ever paid/rewarded responses in which she is giving me 110% - focus/attention/speed and in almost all interactions she is always very switched on. She is also very quick to comply. This is in contrast to Ness who you can see a huge difference whether she is switched in to working or not. Ness at home thinks about complying and even if she does comply speedily you can see she is still considering it. Kenzie complies and goes no problem can do.

yep that is what I was thinking TSD . Sorry bit of confusion Huski - I don't mean never use food or toy but just once the drive has been built and the behavior is effectively self rewarding to the dog why then keep applying an external reward - does it lose its effectiveness if you offer it in a situation and the dog decides to spit it out or not take the reward on offer. And yes its a Sunday - the girls have been to the beach, had a bath, been trained and now I am just messing with people's minds .

Huski wrote: A dog working in drive gets a release of endorphins which means they get a chemical reward..... But is that specific to working in drive and if that is the case why do you still then still need the food/toy reward after. Surely the dog then finds the work self rewarding and that becomes enough.

Ptolomy thats exactly what I am going through with Kenzie - if she is really fired up and pushing she crabs if she is slightly less drivey then she is in perfect position. Although if you look at some of the UK videos where the dogs seem to be drivy and yet do hold a perfect position it does seem possible. And yes I do think drive is different for different people - I just have feral at the moment .

Hmmm what about a novice black and white dog . I am not sure if it makes a difference but when I release Kenzie to whatever toy I am using then she immediately grabs the toy throws herself with the toy in her mouth back at me ready to play. Sort of it takes 2 to tango - just having the toy doesn't make it a reward its only what we do with the toy.

Yep when I was releasing to the item I was using as a distraction I was verbally encouraging her to get it.

Ok I just tried a frisbee on a figure 8 post/start peg and interesting she could cope with the frisbee on the top of the start peg without acknowledging it but when I had it alongside the same cone and we were heeling around it it caused a few more issues which needed to be worked through. One question would you ever use the distraction as the reward or do you find it better to reward with something other than what is being used as the "distraction". I was clicking and then letting her take the frisbee off the cone as her reward but giving her her go and get it cue.

I have to say the only one thing that frustrated me from a viewing point was there was too many adds and it didn't go long enough .

- hmm you would probably return her she is a nutcase but she really loves her frisbee .

Think Kenzie wants to come move in with AD - apparently I suck at my frisbee throwing ability because I keep managing to throw it down the landing into the creek . Well done everybody.

Yeah it was expected just not appreciated with Kenzie - she might have been ok but I didn't want her having a break down over it . It was also HTM not freestyle - think she would have been bullet proof with the freestyle. But I guess what annoyed me a bit was the fact the judge had noticed in the morning how scardy she was (she was commentating the morning) but seemed to think Kenzie was over it by the afternoon whereas I was on edge the entire time.

One of the judges at the DWD comp on the weekend thought she would start clapping in time with the music while I had my baby in the ring. You should have seen the look she copped for that .

Hmmm not sure - I could probably bet your last dollar that Kenzie would go seeya I am out of her. Ness well no idea but she wouldn't leave the ring. This is a bit off topic for this thread but since there seems to be nothing really on topic about it - do people find there baby dogs seem to suddenly mature over night. I am not sure if its because we have just come back from a trip interstate but I am finding Kenzie all of a sudden hardly puts a paw out of place. She is just over 20 months. I was out doing some heelwork before in the yard and it was lovely. I got the box out to play some dog in a box and she didn't miss a trick. I could get her really razzed up and ask her to heel and she would give me the most wonderful gorgeous prancy heelwork. She was 100% solid on her turns and her positions were all square and there for me. She has had some really shitty stands but its almost as though in the last few weeks she has decided she can keep it together and stand square after all. Everything I was asking of her she was doing and with absolute ease. She has now even decided she can hold heel while I walk backwards without twisting her backend out. Its like the penny has dropped. Very interesting.

That exercise bedazzledx2 is essentially what we were doing Monday night at training. Ness is a disaster with it . Kenzie faired slightly better but her issue was when we started moving she lost the plot.

Yep and you also know I am going through this with the midget - trying to work out when she will be ready to enter and its not yet I can tell you that much. Going back to Open with Ness I have had a few rounds I would want to bottle - she has put together some absolute crackers for me. The ones that come to mind would all be towards the end of 2008 and early 2009. No guesses which rounds they would be and especially one particular round in 2008 . If I go back to that particular evening it still puts a smile on my face even now. Still not sure where she pulled that one from mind you .

Hmmm good question Ptolomy - I'd have to have a long think about that. Quite possibly not - I couldn't think of one off the top of my head where its all been 100%. Slides sheepishly back out of the thread .

Probably. Although not sure if she wasn't a bit miffed because I had got cross at her for barking while I was doing some article work with Kenzie (although I did switch Ness out and do 2 articles with her - just metals in the pile so very simple). I was working them out on the front lawn with one dog behind the fence while the other was working and then swapping them over. What I don't get though is this - if its purely a matter of seeing what is on offer before deciding to work how is it any different to what I would do in a trial. She knows there is food/rewards stored in the bag and that she will get them when we finish up in the ring - most of the time . At training she always knows the is food on offer and yet I still struggle to get a 110% enthusiastic round at training never mind at a trial. I am going to be honest and say I don't think she gives me 100% at training so what I get at a trial isn't that far removed from her training performance - so what I need to work out is how to get her to give me 100% at training before I can even consider her passing in a trial. Oooops yes I am talking about my UD dog but she is my first and we are still learning .

Quit corrupting my thread :D . Ok back to the regularly scheduled program - I was doing some distraction work tonight with the Cuz on the ground and having her heel around it and I was getting some very nice work happening. Interesting I tried some start peg work with Ness - treat container was on the top of the front fence, I hadn't loaded up but she obviously could see it - little bugger wasn't losing attention at all. Kenzie wasn't quite so good she was having a bit of a sticky beak at things out the front.

Wouldn't be OT if you said you wanted a Border Collie RubyStar .

I love having a toy mad dog who thinks all toys are worth going crazy for - even if all it is is a dead rope toy. Kenzie loves her orbees and her fur tugs and her frisbee and her foam balls . If you can fetch (and tug) then she is in heaven.

I am lucky Kenzie is just as keen on her cuz squeakies as she is on her i-squeaks .

One of Kenzie's favourite games is for me to heel her past whatever I have laying on the ground and then release her to go and grab it. Usually its a ball or a frisbee or a tug toy. Sometimes I'll just release her, sometimes we will about turn and halt and I will direct her as I would for a directed retrieve and only send her when she is locked in on the object. All good fun.