ness

Hey Peri,

I just thought of something - as long as you aren't looking to trial till after the new rules are introduced (1 July 2006) then it won't be a problem because if I remember correctly the 1 heel pattern in novice is done off-lead. Only CCD which is an optional class has an onlead heel pattern.

Ness

I would continue to desensitive him only so that you can use it on your other dogs and also you never know if you are going to trial when somebody might be using a clicker and you don't want your dog to freak out. Mine also use to be petrified of squeaky toys to the point where if a dog was playing with one at the park and we were there she would go to the other side of the oval and refuse to come back. If you can get him to the point where he is comfortable and able to use it for training that would be the ideal but bridge words work nearly as well except the accuracy isn't quite the same.

1. Employ the assistance of a friend or family member whom the dog likes and

trusts. Muffle the clicker, put some tape over the dimple (ETA is this obviously taking about a box clicker but the principle is the same), about 6 layers and hold it in your pocket, this will stop one pointing it at the dog like a remote control.

2. Get a large bowl of treats not something that is not chopped up,

something like mashed potatoes and gravy. The bowl should be such that the

dog can lap or grab quantities from it.

3. Send the helper to a distance where the dog can barely hear the clicker -

outside, the basement, or down a long hall and into a bedroom.

4. At this stage don't try to match the clicker with the food, have the

helper start clicking the clicker, once every few seconds, while you offer

the special treat. Allow the dog to take a few bites/licks, *remove* the

bowl, allow a few bites/licks, remove the bowl, etc. Still don't try to

match the rhythm of the clicker, as it doesn't matter at this time. What

matters is that the dog is not too stressed to eat when hearing the clicker

at a distance. You are using classical conditioning and reducing the cause

of the behaviour (fear/stressful emotional state of the dog) and as such the

behaviour is not really important as reducing the cause (the clicker sound)

producing a positive emotional .... Later on you can teach a behaviour

again as the dog is clear headed.

5. After several minutes or even in another session, have the helper move

closer and reduce the number of clicks to one about every 7-10 seconds and

start patterning your feeding to the sounds of the click. Click, feed.

Click, feed.

6. Continue at this level, feeding after hearing the click, until you see

the dog begin to visibly startle at the sound and expect the food after

hearing the click.

7. When the helper is in the same room as the dog, start delaying clicks to

sound only after the dog has offered some sort of behaviour such as a slight

head move, remember not to ask for the whole behaviour (a spin) .

Hey Zenith,

What about a pen - you know the ones you have to click to get the pen part to come out. Is he afraid of that. Else a quieter click again would be something like one of those fruit juice container lids. I'll hunt out what I had suggested to me when Ness was scared. Its saved away in my email somewhere.

Hey Zenith,

My border collie Ness was also sound sensitive to a clicker and would cower when I clicked it initially. Now she thinks its the best thing since sliced bread. First I would ask what type of clicker are you using? When I started out it was pre the new i-clicks and those box clickers are very loud - so if your dog is scared I would switch to using an i-click. My box clickers have long been in retirment and they even hurt my ears now. The i-clicks are far quieter but still work equally well.

If your already using an i-click then get something like a bowl of slightly melted icecream, gravy or anything like that and then let the dog lick out the bowl and click while the dog is doing that. Initially you might have to start a long way away from the dog like down the end of the hall and slowly reduce the distance.

I can expand on this method if you are using an i-click but my first suggestion would be to try one of those and see if that solves the problem.

Go ahead I would as long as its not causing any obvious distress to the dog have fun.

  K9: maybe not enough value on the frisbee, or no consequence for chasing wrong item..

Oh yes there was a consequence the only other time she tried at 7 months - she got clipped by the car. I don't know the entire story as I wasn't there. She has not tried to chase trucks along the fence at the oval before till this morning - She is now 5 years old. What should I have done? or what should I do in the future? I was lucky enough that there was a fence so I was able to call her back (after which time I noticed that the gate was open and was counting my lucky stars) and I got her chasing the frisbee.

Sorry K9 just read your last post - so what is the deal if the dog runs away with the prey item - what does that say?

Ok I have run into a little dilemma and was wondering what I might have done wrong k9force or others. I thought I was having a great game in high prey drive chasing after her frisbee at the oval, next minute she is off after a truck along the fenceline. Does this mean the value of the frisbee has not been made high enough so that she is totally focused on that or can this just happen because I have awakened prey drive and does it then come down to an issue of focus so that Ness only applies it to the frisbee and not any other moving object that happens to enter her field of vision.

Ok so what I do is do as YB did with connor but I want to find a toy that floats - preferably a different one to anything she currently owns and increase the drive playing that game then I need to get her to love chasing it then add the water in later? Its not a chase of fear or anything as she will chase huge sticks into flooded creeks but would not chase a toy under similar circumstances.

Just want to add whoever sent the link for those articles on drives and nerves and thresholds I found them fascinating. Kind of explains some stuff that I didn't realise before - like Ness's occasional desire to take off flat out after another dog or a person and bark.

It might but I'll just clarify the situation further. For example at the beach Ness can have total focus with ball chasing on the sand (which I suppose is prey drive yes?) but I throw it into the water and she starts to chase then it lands in the water so she looks at me like no way am I going to get that. Minute I throw it back on the sand she is racing off after it. On the other hand if I collect a branch she is raring to go into the water and will retrieve the same branch for ages and ages. Will the technique you suggested to yb work for fetching as well or just tug? She won't just jump in but goes into a BC crouch on the bank and waits....

like

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Yes I definitely love the added responsiveness to commands with super speed. Pity I am limited in places I can get it . Its got to be swimming in the creek or at the beach and chasing huge tree branches as the reward - a toy just doesn't cut the mustard. Pity nobody has been clever enough to invent a toy thats like a huge tree branch with leaves!!! I was looking for those retrieving bumpers as I figured that at least might resemble the thickness but couldn't find one. Ness is funny as after she has been swimming and whilst she is still wet she will accept tuggy as a reward for things like heelwork without slipping out of drive which at other times she will not do.

K9 wrote:

this comes from satisfaction from the other items being greater than the toy, the idea of what Im talking about here is to overt that from happening, but for now, your dog should only see failure from attempting prey drive satisfaction from anything other than your one toy.

Ah ok - bloody difficult if you ask me but I can see where you are coming from.

K9 wrote:

this means your dog needs less wins of the toy & more frustration, this will elevate drive for the toy.

Ok I always thought the opposite - the more I let her win the more she stayed in the game. I might try what you suggested about teasing the dog and not letting them get the toy. She has come a long way from where she was in this though.

Thanks K9 for the suggestions.

Interesting topic everybody.

Is there anything you can do if you have situational specific prey drive to generalise it more? As in loves chasing things they shouldn't - noisy moving objects, birds, bikes but lose interest in toys? I have been working at getting her to play with a tug rope and whilst she is getting better and occasionally has the intensity I want its not all the time yet.

As for the whole having toys to play with at home bit - apart from one favourite soft toy that sits in her crate and despite the fact she has balls left laying around she is only interested in them if I initiciate a game.

This may or may not be directly on point but sometimes I wish my 5 year old BC would actually play with other dogs rather than give me 110% attention all the time so I guess I have the opposite problem or rather what some people think is more desirable.

I was discussing this tonight with a few friends at training. It makes exercising her very difficult. She isn't a big retrieving dog so we just can't go to an oval and play ball. Whenever we are out walking she is heeling (and I have long given up even acknowledging her presence except when I ask for it). So one wonders how I am suppose to exercise her when she just won't run. There are only so many hours in the day that I can walk her and everybody knows that walking doesn't burn up that much energy. I thought the behaviour would diminish over time but its just got stronger. We go to the oval and she has had a lab hanging off one side and a BC pup on the other and yet she still was heeling with me .

I will declare my hand in saying that I am pretty much a positive trainer so have heavily rewarded heelwork with food in the past and still do when practising.

So given I have this attention any suggestions about what you might do to exercise an obviously active breed who seems to think she has to give attention to me and that manifests itself by heeling.

Funny about this topic - Ness can heel both on the right and the left (needed for freestyle routines). Her right side heelwork was purely clicker trained and was always a lot flashier than her left side till I retrained it - now she is flashy on both sides. As for agility we never had a problem with the whole left/right issue despite not knowing - in fact go figure if I weave her on the right she is less likely make mistakes - left side weaving just seems weird.

Hey that is good to know. Means I won't worry for a little while yet. I would hate to think they didn't get here.

Well I think the Adelaide Postie must be having fun with them because they still aren't here yet :rolleyes:.

Hopefully they will get here Monday otherwise I will start to get worried.

I prefer to think of it as heeling is something that you will only require of your dog if you intend to trial in obedience (so only required in a ring type situation) anything else is loose leash walking.

Well its true BCs do mob nicely

Hey,

Sounds like I should have lent you the BC courier scarer . Just kidding she'd probably have licked Kitkat to death but least distracted Kitkat for long enough you to get dressed.

Nah they aren't here yet!

Blame Auspost hehehe. Hopefully tomorrow . The BC postal scarer shall be on duty but I have told her she is expecting mail so she better be nice to them for the next couple of days.

Oooh colour choices:

Well I'll have to say black or red (BC colours :rolleyes: ) possibly 2 black and 1 red. As for the extras that will I guess depends on what you have remaining - I am sure they won't mind the colour.

Hey,

I'd be up for a couple as well possibly.

Sally and Ness