Yonjuro

She looks great, are you doing Prey model? Whatever you are doing, you are obviously doing it right

Poor girl, I hope you get to the source of the problem.

Corn in foods can really build up gas in some dogs, I notice the Hills I/D has corn as the first ingredient, but I don't think Blackhawk does. I know you mentioned that you don't think it is food related but it might be worth looking into the foods you have previously tried and whether they contain corn as most do?

I always thought that the kibbles with less fillers and a higher level of nutrition meant you would feed less than with a lower quality kibble ??

I have very fond memories of Basset hounds, having had one when I was a kid. I remember his bark really well. Booming with a hit of Tyrannosaurus Rex :laugh: On the bright side a Basset bark although very loud doesn't have that pitch that can really fire up the neighbours.

Have a google for Dr Ian Dunbar + barking, he has some great tricks and tips. One of his methods is to teach and encouraging the dog to bark on cue and then to stop on cue. I like that his method is not to forbid your dog from barking - as this is what dogs naturally do, but to modify the behaviour through positive reinforcement.

I believe that as kidney function decreases or is under strain the Phosphate level will rise, humans and dogs etc, should then reduce the amount of foods with a high content of Phosphorus .

Okay yep you could look at it that way for sure.

I look at it from the view that the VAN mix is not cooked, or processed apart from the rolled oats and there is a little dried stuff, but it isn't cooked or processed so therefore raw - in my way of thinking :)

I didn't see it as bagging was just interested.

Fair enough, I agree with what you are saying. I kind of think of raw in the context of dog food as being uncooked animal products (meat, bones, organs), but you are right the Vans mixes are probably raw foods as well.

I wonder if the OPs breeder is making the same distinction, I am assuming that the breeder is not recommending a diet of just raw meat or PMR? I would have thought that one of the appropriate Vans mixes, mixed with raw meat would be in better than kibble + raw meat? Having said that I am only guessing .

Why is VAN and raw meat not fully raw?

I am assuming that "raw" is referring to raw meat, so mixing a product made of cereals etc to meat would mean that the meal is not fully raw - would it not? I am not bagging VANs by the way I am just interested in why meat and kibble is okay but meat and vans is not.

I am not fully conversant in VANs products so I was assuming we were talking about their Complete Mix type foods that are made to be mixed with raw meat, rather than their packaged meat products.

The meaty bones are only chicken frames and turkey wings/ frames.. I don't give chicken necks as he swallows them pretty much. Unless I remember to buy some then freeze them in a fist size amount to slow him down.

He doesn't manage other bones eg chuck bones, roo tail,chicken drumsticks, he just chews the meat off. He doesn't even chew the turkey bones and leaves the hardest part of the chicken backbone in the carcass.

What is PMR?

Not sure whether he can't chew or just won 't.

PMR is Prey Model Raw Diet, this diet is based on the theory that dogs can get all of the nutrients they need from raw meat, bones and organs. Based on what you say , this is probably not the right diet for your dog.

Prior to his blood work, he was getting Blackhawk and also raw. I don't mix mince and dry in the same meal. He has the Blackhawk and gets frozen meats to help clean his teeth.

That's interesting thanks for sharing. Were the frozen meats with bones? This is a concern that I raised earlier on the theory than kibble has the right calcium phosphate ratio and raw meaty bones would perhaps increase the levels to an undesirable level.

I personally am more inclined to feed raw meaty bones as part of PMR as a whole balanced diet. This is not to say that dogs can't do very well on a good quality kibble alone. I had to remove RMB's from my late dogs diet due to the excess of calcium that the Vet felt contributed to her forming crystals and stones in her bladder, which led to UTIs.

Thank you for your input, I realize in the big scheme of things a skin condition is a lesser ailment a dog can have but I am very hollistic in my approach over the years to dogs and try to keep preprepared foods out of the diet so feel that why should I feed a commercially made dog food because vets sell it. Surely if I have the willingness I can make a balanced diet? I am supportive of veterinary care but when I see vets pushing shampoo, dog collars, dog food, dog treats I am just suss because when you get down to brass tacks dogs have thrived for years without commercial intervention. If my dog needs to be medicated for life due to a condition well so be it, but I try to explore all options. Yes I agree Westiemum, this little poodle has cost a great deal for its 12 mths (not heaps of improvement)and factoring in teeth etc..is going to be a costly if I have to do yearly dentals because of her diet. Prior to seeking veterinary advice I had her on a grain free diet for a few months (with the occasional sardine),it was beneficial but didnt change her skin condition.

Good on you for exploring this thoroughly. I think that you can absolutely make a far superior food, given that you are prepared to research and go to the effort of making up your own.

Coconut Oil is said to be good both topically and orally for itchy skins and allergies. Obviously this is not a cure-all but might be worth considering implementing.

I wish you all the very best in helping your dog overcome this condition.

My 7 month old Akita recently had blood work done, and his phosphate levels came back high.

The vet said to cut out meat until he is a year old. Only feed him kibble and water, as that is all he needs (at the moment).

I tried to ask about those people who feed raw. But he is like yours is a large breed and to not feed him meat for the next few months.

What do other large breed owners do in terms of raw? I feed them hearts, frames, turkey wings and mince. Plus some veg.

Are you saying that prior to the blood work you were feeding mixed raw and kibble or just the items you listed?

I also agree with following what your breeder has said. Having said that Van + Raw meaty bones is not fully raw at all. I don't really understand why kibble + raw is okay but vans plus raw isn't

Nothing mentioned about any attack to the throat in the news report, so dunno what that was about on the radio??

THe incident is getting a heap of coverage across the media and the main news shows haven't started yet.

With this coming only a couple of weeks after the last serious attack that involved a dog described exactly the same as the ones here, we are no doubt going to be bombarded with cries for tighter legislation or changes. As our laws recently changed in June, this owner can probably expect prosecution to the full extent of the act.

This makes me sad for the elderly lady and her husband, and makes me angry at the owner.

As I understand it, the elderly are the next most vulnerable group for dog attacks.... after young children.

Some by-laws broken. Dogs not registered, dogs not contained on their property....

A US study found, among other things, that dogs involved in serious attacks tended not to be registered. Part of a picture of lack of responsibility by an owner. I wish there was a serious dog attack investigation team.... that would examine cases like this one.

Poor lady....so terrifying & brutal thing to happen to an 85 yr old.

Yeah, the vet said that the shuffling walk that some elderly do can bait such dogs - or words to that effect?

He also said that the dogs when in the van had that sad/guilty look that they knew they had done wrong?

I should also say that I was in the garden pulling weeds when the interview came on, I wasn't taking notes so any mistakes in the reporting of the reporting could be mine. Having said that I think I have been pretty accurate in recounting what was said.

THe vet was pretty firm in deed not breed and saying the Vic model should not be adopted here in the west.

When discussing the Vic model on destroying family pets of certain breeds he said n a lighter note, that years ago he had to report any dingo or dingo crosses that came into his vet practice to the authorities. He said that in many cases he would call them or treat them as Long legged Corgies!!! LOL.

Just goes to show how different the news stories can be, read this compared to the summary of the radio report Yonjuro posted (please note this is not aimed at Yonjuro!)

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/elderly-woman-mauled-by-dog-in-middle-swan/story-fnhocxo3-1226702742168

AN elderly woman has been rushed to hospital with serious head and facial injuries after being mauled by a dog in the Swan Valley.

Two unregistered dogs have been impounded over this morning’s attack which left an 82-year-old woman in hospital with serious head and facial injuries.

The woman and her husband were walking down Scott Street in Koongamia around 8.40am when two dogs burst out of the front door of a house, inflicting potentially life-threatening injuries on her in a savage attack.

The woman received head injuries and lost a lot of blood.

She was initially taken to nearby Swan District Hospital but has since been transferred to Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital.

``It's a very serious attack,'' a police spokeswoman said.

She said the owner of the dogs was home at the time and it's believed he tried to intervene.

The spokeswoman said she understood the dogs were a Staffordshire Terrier/Bull Mastiff cross, and were unregistered.

Tougher penalties will apply for offences involving dangerous dogs under proposed new laws that were introduced to the WA parliament in June.

In a statement issued this morning the City of Swan said one of its “customer advocates” had attended the scene of the attack and had impounded the two female dogs.

“The City's customer advocates are gathering as much evidence and information about the incident as possible. Statements have been taken from witnesses,” City of Swan chief Mike Foley said.

“Two female dogs have been impounded and will remain impounded while the City's investigation is completed. Neither of the dogs is registered.

“Only once this investigation is complete will a decision be made on what will happen to these dogs"

Now the dogs were in the house and the owner was home! Not that any of that is relevant to the poor woman, she now has to deal with the injuries

No offence taken, I am only saying what they said on the radio. Having said that the reports seem quite similar. Except vet said be believed that the dogs had escaped from the yard, so that is different, he also believed the owner must have been at work.

But yeah, it seems worse knowing the owner was at home! In regards to the footage, the same radio interviewee said the owner carrier the dogs out to the ranger one by one so the footage seen is probably this case and not stock footage.

Either way it is terrible and the info that I posted was only hours old, so no doubt more fact will come out.

... just heard interview with Vet on the radio who is inspecting the case.

Apparently the dogs escaped from a backyard, owner possibly at work. Vet said dogs appeared to be Staffy mastiff crosses. He said the lady attached had bites to the throat and had fingers snapped. THe dogs bolted back to their own yard when challenged by a passer by. Vet was pro deed not breed but conceded that breeds like this are overly represented in these type of attacks, part of this he put down to the sheer numbers of such dogs.

He went on to say that this if usually a case of poor training and ownership. He also mentioned it would be a big mistake to go down the path that Victoria has taken with breed legislation.

Anyway that is basically what he said in the interview, which seemed quite balanced from my perspective. It was on radio 6PR at 12;50ish Perth time.

update

An 85-year-old woman suffered serious head and facial injuries when she was mauled by two dogs this morning in Perth’s foothills.

The attack happened about 8.40am on Scott Street in Koongamia.

A St John Ambulance spokeswoman said paramedics arrived to find the woman “conscious and breathing but not alert”.

She said the dogs were locked in a house while the elderly victim was taken to the nearby Swan District Hospital.

It is understood the 85-year-old was then transferred to Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital, where she is in a serious condition.

A police spokeswoman said she understood the dogs were a Staffordshire Terrier/Bull Mastiff cross, and were unregistered.

The circumstances surrounding the attack are not yet known.

City of Swan chief executive Mick Foley said two unregistered, female dogs had been impounded.

“The City’s Customer Advocates are gathering as much evidence and information about the incident as possible. Statements have been taken from witnesses,” he said.

“Only once this investigation is complete will a decision be made on what will happen to these dogs.”

Tougher penalties will apply for offences involving dangerous dogs under proposed new laws that were introduced to the WA parliament in June.

Woman, 85, mauled in dog attack

LIAM CROY, Yahoo!7

August 23, 2013, 10:47 am

An 85-year-old woman suffered serious facial injuries when she was mauled by two dogs this morning.

The attack happened about 8.40am on Scott Street in Koongamia.

A St John Ambulance spokeswoman said the woman was “conscious and breathing, but not alert.”

She said the dogs were locked in a house while the elderly victim was taken to the nearby Swan District Hospital.

She has been transferred to Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital.

A police spokeswoman said the 85-year-old had serious head and facial injuries.

The circumstances surrounding the attack and the breed of the dogs are not yet known.

City of Swan rangers are investigating and the dogs have been seized.

Oh dear, I am so sorry to hear this. I hope things get better soon. Wishing you and Bruno the best.

When humans eat, do we separate our food into different digestion rate groups?

I don't know about you, but I actually chew my food which will mix the foods, using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

Not exactly. Mastication in humans essentially serves to beak the food down into smaller particles so digestive enzymes have access to greater surface area and enzyme digestion of specific foods starts in the mouth: the longer its chewed the more nutrition can be extraction.

It's true dog molars are more efficient at crushing than chewing, but still need the mechanical action of chewing things like RMB to preserve dental health.

Its the stomach that has the role of mixing foods and does an extremely effective job. In a healthy dog, the peristaltic action of the stomach and the digestive juices secreted from the stomach mucosa form chyme and small amounts of chyme are secreted into the duodenum as it develops. Food compositions that take longer to break down, stay longer (or are expelled) and those that are faster to break down are excreted through the pyloris faster.

Its a very efficient system so the combination of foods that pass through a canine mouth and how well its chewed don't really have any negative impact on the way the body prepares it to be metabolized. Besides obvious issues like a dog with a disease process present or feeding excessive fats of course!!

Great post - thank you

Great news Bailey is coming around. It must be so hard dealing with this but it sounds like you are doing a great job. Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery.

using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

if fed LARGE meaty bones etc ...they can and do use those back molars ..although they have no need to masticate thoroughly , as their stomach acids are well equipped to easily break down bones/gristle /keratin , etc .

I totally agree with what you are saying and firmly believe RMBs are excellent food when part of a balanced diet. I have found that most kibbles are pretty small and get a crunch or two on the way down, some just seem to get hoovered LOL.

I have been speaking a lot with breeders recently on diets for a Sibe, especially as I am on a waiting list for a puppy. The breeder I have been speaking to, does not recommend mixing due to the often sensitive nature of a Sibes stomach. She recommends a good quality kibble like TOTW or going PMR if one has the time and freezer space. Having said that there will certainly be Sibe owners and breeders that say mixing is fine.

I will say again that most dogs are probably fine on mixed, the different digestion rates may not be a problem for many dogs, however I do not buy into that old chestnut that we as humans don't separate food types when we eat so why should dogs.

All of these theories and so-called rules are simply guides. I have a friend who fed his Lab cooked lamb chops with bones almost every week despite my protestations. The Lab lived a long and healthy life. Plenty of people at the local vineyards have dogs that eat grapes regularly with no adverse side effects. My pop smoked and drank every day and lived healthily well into his 80s.... there are numerous examples of dogs and humans having no problems with diets that health professionals would consider less than ideal or downright dangerous. The question I always ask is, is there a better way??

I am not 100% for or against mixing, I have previously stated my reasoning. I remain open but unconvinced that the sum of the two parts is better than the whole of one part in an individual meal.

When humans eat, do we separate our food into different digestion rate groups?

I don't know about you, but I actually chew my food which will mix the foods, using my back teeth that are designed for this. Dogs can't do this.

My view on different rates of digestion argument is that dogs often scarf their food, especially kibble, unlike most of us humans who chew our food. Kibble, ,meat and bones landing in the stomach will digest at different rates purely based on the fact that they are three different solids of varying density and composition and are not mixed well by chewing. I don't think this would be an issue with a dog that has a non-sensitive stomach. A dog with a sensitive stomach may have bouts of the squirts or constipation depending on the foods and bone content.

As others have said there is no single diet that is suitable for all dogs. Mixing may be the ultimate for dog X and be terrible for dog Y.

I have never fed kibble, meat and bones in the one meal. My dogs get RMBS or they get some kind of raw meat (not a large amount) added to the kibble to "spice it up". So far, no issues.

Having observed my dogs scarf a range of pretty iffy stuff over the years - poo, decomposing animals, dead carp.. you name it - I'd have to say I don't think any of them have sensitive stomachs. As canines, that's pretty unsurprising.

I am sure that this is the case for many.