KobiD

49 minutes ago, sheena said:

Wow...expensive dog food.....$50 a kilo 

Yeeeeahh.. Dehydrated meat. Would be better off buying a dehydrator and making your own dog jerky at that price.

Have our dog on a blend of meals for mutts and Blackhawk.

42 minutes ago, tdierikx said:

I'd love to see pricing for rescue animals reflect their true value... in many cases the animals in question have been thoroughly vetworked, temperament assessed, and if necessary, rehabilitated for medical/physical/mental issues. Homes are usually fairly well checked out and matched to a particular animal's/family's needs... and that alone is actually priceless IMHO.

 

The myth/perception that rescue animals are in some way "lesser" than animals sourced from anywhere else, and as such should be cheaper to purchase, needs to be kyboshed...

 

T.

I agree, however I think costs need to be averaged out across multiple dogs. No point investing a load of time and dollars into a particular animal only to then put a higher price on it and cutting out potential buyers. 

In regards to lesser animals, it is all perception for sure. Every animal is an individual and should be treated as such, and while an unknown mix can be a bloody good dog, it's still an unknown mix and that decreases the value to some people depending on what they are looking for. I certainly would pay more to have the ability to see the parents size/character, liaise with the people who raised them (both before buying and after), and papers as well..

It doesn't make the animal any less, but does take value out of the transaction.. at least from my point of view.

On 6/8/2018 at 3:10 PM, Tassie said:

I can understand your concerns about a cat, but to be honest, in your situation, I think a cat would be a better fit.   You might need to spend a bit of money up front setting up an enclosure so the cat can have safe outside time, ideally with secure access from the house.    And if you and your child enjoy going for walks, it's quite possible to train a cat to walk nicely on a harness ... but they'll survive perfectly well without being taken for walks ... so less pressure.   And since many/most cats are happy to sleep most of the day away, there's much less pressure to train, entertain etc.  

Just something to consider.   A dog really is a major commitment of time, energy and patience, and maybe now is not the right time in your life for a dog.

This was my thought as well.

On 6/8/2018 at 7:16 PM, persephone said:

 

IF, though, as it seems, your child is,as yet, not quite ready  to live  with a dog ... consider a lovely ragdoll cat  ..a stress reliever , if ever there was one .

 

Nailed it.

On 6/9/2018 at 8:37 AM, ~Anne~ said:

Geebus, lighten up everyone! So much judgement!  

 

There is nothig wrong with putting a dog in a room for 3-4 hours if the dog is ok with that. I know of many dogs that would be fine with that. They’d simply sleep the time away and if it was done routinely, they would learn the routine and be fine. 

 

I think a penned area would also work. We used to pen ours by placing a long straight baby fence across from the breakfast bar to the wall. It’s hard to describe but it enabled us to create a pen that was approx 2.5m x 1m and as it was parallel to the back door where there was a dog door, they could come and go from outside too. 

 

From what you’ve described, I would never have recommended a Staffy anyway so the rescue should have screened better in my view. As for returning it, good job. That’s EXACTLY what a responsible person would do and I’m surprised at the responses here by rescuers. That’s WHY we offer a return if it doesn’t work out remember, rescuers? 

 

A few tips tips for what it’s worth:

 

- dogs can and do take up to 12 weeks to show their true colours in a rescue rehome situation. Give the dog time to settle, be patient, speak to the rescue and makes sure you know what is the time limit you have to return the dog if it’s not working out. Many don’t offer this ‘settling in’ time at all. 

 

- speak to as many people as you can about what breeds are more compliant and not overly active. Although rescues are maninly indeterminate breeds, you can make a judgement on what type you might be looking for. 

 

- consider buying and older dog, maybe even a purebred from a breeder. The breeder will know the dog’s personality and traits. 

 

- take your time. Get it right. 

 

Good luck! 

 

Glad someone here is looking at things from the other side of the field. I agree that there is the right animal to meet the needs. It may take some time and patience both finding and training to achieve said goals, but on the whole it's not unreasonable. 

On 6/10/2018 at 3:42 PM, Rascalmyshadow said:

I disagree that a cat couldn’t work, they fit all the requirements the op has mentioned ( besides the orientals and Burmese would be too full on and/or vocal).

Choosing the right breed makes a huge difference.

 

We have four cats, the Ragdollx is tolerant to everything (like most Ragdolls) he took to my adhd/odd daughter immediately, allowed her cuddle him, put blankets on him etc. 5 years on and he sleeps on her bed most nights, yep he would scratch if hurt but I would rather a child learn from that than a serious bite from a dog.

 

 

I see a pattern here.

I would have to agree. Have had a couple cats over the years. 1st a feral ginger from behind a dumpster as a kitten which retained it's wild nature. It was a very special occasion when that boy would jump up on your lap for a snuggle. If he didn't want attention you'd better not try and force it on him..  He was a cat cat that saw the world through his own eyes. Walked to the beat of his own drum. Still usually pretty tolerance of children, in that he'd be out of sight if he didn't want to play.

The later a purebred ragdoll. He's about as much like a dog as a cat gets. Happily sleeps most of the day, yet still likes to have human interaction without being needy. Generally just sticks around. He comes out the front to check the letter box, and outside to hang the washing on the line. Likes to sleep at the end of the bed.. and oh so tolerant of everyone. Even when he likes to play rough (which he only does with me, not the kids) he's very gentle in his approach of mouthing, kicking, and latching onto my legs. 

1 hour ago, ~Anne~ said:

Forgive me for my laziness, but I havent read the entire thread - just page 1 and now this page - and I’m only going to focus on one point - profit.

 

@KobiD  Profit is not and should not be a dirty word in rescue. The reason why rescues are often considered less than worthy of any other dog/cat is that we focus on the emotional pull of rescue (this poor little dog has been abused) and we expect a rescue to run on the smell of an oily rag. We sell the perception that it’s under par, desperate and lacking.  We should be selling it as a choice for pet owners and it should be run as a business. A business that should educate in animal welfare matters and enable people to own and love a pet. We should aim to make a profit.

 

Profit is not a dirty word. Profit doesn’t mean ‘I’m off on a holiday or to buy a new car’. Profit can be reinvested into animal welfare, into desexing programs, education programs, awareness campaigns, promotion, facilities and resources.

 

Rescue is broader than welfare. The welfare mentality drepesses me. There’s a lot that I think is really off in the way rescue has evolved over the years and the perception created by the industry as a whole. 

 

Waiver: Im not sure I’ve made a clear point and I apologise for that. I’ve debated so much in the rescue arena over the years that I don’t have the energy anymore to spend time in debates. 

I would consider that to be 'not for profit' if the intention is to put any capital back into the business. I've never suggested that people should have to volunteer their time, nor that businesses need to run at a near loss to be ethical.

Just that my opinion is that running a business with the sole reason of earning money and my view of 'rescue' don't go together. I tend to think the same with people; there is a market for adoption; people who want babies but can't have them, and babies who need homes; but the concept of human trafficking doesn't sit well with many on an ethical/moral level. The end goal is to improve the quality of life for all parties involved.. not make someone rich.  

You been having a win mate?

I just say she's an unknown mutt   a black dog!! 

Given where we live good chance she's someones mixed breed pig hunting dog crossed with another or another mix. Just use her as a family dog here though!

1 hour ago, tdierikx said:

Based only on her look, I see kelpie, cattle dog, and some bull breed in the mix... most likely she's from some generations worth of mixed breeding, so more than one or two types in there...

 

She is gorgeous! And those eyes... *melt*

 

T.

Without a doubt!!

Have had all those mentioned by people.. I haven't entertained DNA testing for that reason too. It'd be no surprised finding out she has a mix of mixes, and at the end of the day she is what she is. 

She has definitely got some drive about her. Likes to head things off when she's chasing.. Not a much of a heel nipper. She can jump!!! Not uncommon for her to fly past at head height. And a very keen nose as well. Loves to hunt by scent and sight. EXTREMELY food driven.. not big on touch/cuddles, but will lay on your lap with a toy when she's in the right mood for a snuggle. A real thinker.. loves to offer up behaviours in the pursuit of something edible. 

EDIT: she'll retreive, but isn't obsessed about it. Loves to lug and tug off a rope... but not as much as she loves food! 

Funny animals! She's always on the lookout! No fly zone included for sure! Neighbours trees. If it's visible she's vocal! But only really in our yard. Walk down the street and the nesting willy wag tail can bomb her and clip her across the back and she won't even flinch...

I know its against forum rules to speculate what breeds a dog may be.. but even 1.5years in I've still got no idea... Sometimes she looks a bit like a lab.. sometimes she looks like a staffy/bully breed and her then the lean leggy body looks a little whippet/grey-ish as well. Real mixed basket. Personality wise is just as much a guess. She lazes around most the day, but when she's excited she has energy for days. Lots of drive when she's after something, and a hard nature... doesn't cower or shy away from anything. A little too playful with some kids, but just perfect once the initial excitement has passed. Plays calm with them, but a bit rougher with me. She's taught me as much about patience as she's also had to learn!

And one more for good measure.. 

Time has kept on keeping on. The young lass is continuing to grow and mature into a lovely lady. Weighs in around a lean 22-23kgs.

How the time has passed!!

She's still continuing to mature.. she still has her triggers. She definitely doesn't like birds! 

When she barks while you're away what kind of bark is it? Is she crying for attention? Playfully barking with her toys? Fearfully barking at things (or sounds) she is unsure of? Does she do this when you are inside and she is outside but you're still home? What does she have to keep herself occupied?

If she's focussed on the woodchips and you don't like that, there is another training opportunity. Take her out and teach her to redirect to something more appropriate. Remember her instincts are to hunt. Her following her nose and exploring is part of who she is at a subconscious level too.

No offence taken here! It's just the nature of the internet. There will be people who agree and those who disagree.. Raising a pup is an intensive exercise. They grow and change at such a rapid rate that it can feel like just as you start to get one thing sorted you're faced with another challenge. Same as kids, but crammed into a much shorter time frame!

In terms of the training, hit and miss equates to not reliable. One skill can be be somewhat reliable in one situation, but not in another.. dogs don't generalise well so it's important to (re)train the skills in a variety of environments. If you notice your dog has taken a step back with something (can't focus, distracted, ignoring, etc) then you need to take a step back in that situation as well to build the reliability back in. Duration, Distance, and Distractions.

Some useful reading here: http://www.skysthelimitdogtraining.com/3-ds/

As I said earlier. Every situation is different.. You don't need to take others opinions so seriously, nor do you need to speculate about others ability because of your opinion. My puppy has been outside day and night, never crated at all since she was 10 weeks old, no cameras setup at all. I must be irresponsible!! We don't live in a cold climate, we don't live on acreage, we have a secure yard with areas she can dig, and toys to play with, along with multiple shaded areas and her bed. Of course there is potential for her to get into a bad situation still, but there always is and always will be.. In human raising there is a term called helicoptering.. I feel it's the same with dogs. Would I leave our puppy unsupervised inside... not even for 5 minutes now at 18 months. Our dog was always going to be an outside pet. I spend a lot of time outside in the garden, playing with the kids, working in the shed. I started with what I wanted the norm to be from the start.  

From what I understand you have her crated based on your situation and what you feel is best.

I agree that is a long time to be crated, but as you've said it's not 7 days a week, and more likely to be 4-5 days. I assume you spend those days with someone home offering the freedoms as others have suggested. Letting her have time alone outside to just be a dog and all that jazz.

Every dog is different. Every owner has different expectations. Every environment is unique. You can only do what you feel works best to achieve the results you are looking for.

Some people want their dog in the bed with them, others in crates, and others don't let their animals inside at all. Who's to say what is right or wrong?

Sounds good!

So really it's the 15 minutes that she wants to be with you while you shower that she feels she is missing out on something. A great opportunity to teach her independence! Give her something else to do that is of greater value that she can work on alone. Or have someone else help by keeping her busy/engaged while you shower. 

She is a dog. You can't really force her attention upon you, nor can you really compete with things she values more. You have to build that value up more and that comes through time and repetition. Thus, only recall her when you are confident she will and when she comes make a party out of it. Build the value, while limiting the opportunity she has to choose otherwise. Sometimes the thing that are valuing can also be a great reward. IE she wants to sniff, you have a successful recall and celebrate and as part of the reward you both go and thoroughly investigate the area some more. I often practice 'go sniff' followed by 'let's go'. It's part of our walks. She likes to scent along more than I prefer, however it allows us to manage it where she can have what she wants, yet she'll keep moving when I need or want her to.

It really is the time and practice in various situations, at different levels of excitement and distraction that builds reliability. It seems you have trained the behaviours you want. Now you just need to put in the time proofing them.

Why does she need to be crated while you shower? Does she get into mischief? Does she stay crated the whole time you're at work until lunch? Do you know if she cries again when you leave after lunch?

With everything you want to try and limit the opportunities they have to learn and reinforce the behaviours you don't want to see. With the crying in the crate that means either waiting it out for silence to mark and reward the correct behaviour, or not putting her in the position when you don't have time to wait it out. Every time she cries and you cater to her you are teaching that she can get your attention through that action. In respect to the recall, I wouldn't ask unless if you can be reasonably sure she will listen. Usually I name call, and if she looks I'll turn and move away and as soon as she moves towards I will drop the cue, make it a quick game of chase and reward with play and treats. If she only shows a little attention at the name call the recall is unlikely to follow and I'll just calmly approach and close the distance down. Same goes for all cues.

Have you played any crate games at all? Or is it that when she goes in she stays in? Same routine every day? It would be very easy for her to preempt morning crate with a couple hours boredom. I also find our dog has peak energy/excitement levels first thing in the morning and again in the early evening. I find games that engage physically and also mentally at these times work best. For example most mornings I'll just play a quick game with the door, where I wait for her to sit before I approach it. She's very excited and wants to get up and jump around. I back off when she stands, etc. Game continues all the way up until I can step outside and she is rewarded with pats, and a game of rope/ball, with breakfast following soon after. Only takes a few minutes but immediately engages her mind, teaching patience and control... however that is for our high energy dog. As others have said you need to work the dog you have infront of you. View the behaviour you have, and then structure a plan to shape that into the behaviour you'd like to see. Small steps, and also remember she's still very young. She'll still be a puppy for another year or more yet. Don't expect too much, but be aware of what she learns through each interaction you have. 

You're a tough bunch eh. Put forward an opinion which IMO is not even opposing and it all becomes filled with emotion. Feel free to judge however you please Mady. I won't be offended.

You all continue to misconstrue everything I post, blowing it out of proportion and adding big dramatic undertones. Are we watching the 7pm news?? I've not used the words inferior, I haven't related them to being serial killers, or any other nonsense things. You're all very good at putting words in peoples mouths.

Simply that as a layman walking off the street, looking for a pet to add to a family (inclusive of small children and other small animals) that a rescue or any other adopted dog with no known history can present a risk to the buyer/new owner. Yes you can generally see what you get in size and temperament but you don't see the whole picture after a few visits. With a puppy from a pound you get no history; it will be what it is... and from a breeder you at least get some history (but that is not to say that anything is guaranteed either). End of the day all dogs can pose a risk. They are animals and they have sharp teeth and tolerance levels just like the rest of us.

This whole inferior vs superior debate is pointless. Everyone here is well aware that there is no right or wrong when it comes to people and their beliefs (however it appears from you all, that there indeed is). The dog I find superior when it comes to being a pet could very well be inferior if used to work cattle, and vice versa.  Many rescues can be (and indeed are) matched to people who best compliment each other.

As per my initial post, I have a problem with anyone who tries to turn a profit through the sales of rescued animals. Costs should cover expenses, and if they don't then perhaps overall prices need to be re-evaluated and public perception changed/educated on why things cost what they do, but my opinion, and my opinion only is that taking a dog off someone to try and flip for a profit is not very ethical. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here and saying that's what you do... and even if you wanted to you would be free to do so because my opinions/beliefs mean nothing to anyone but myself anyway.

10 hours ago, Maddy said:

Are they? Have you undertaken a study of purebred rescue dogs, comparing each against the breed standard, ideally as a blind study to ensure bias is minimised? Because if not, you're judging dogs based just on the fact that they're rescues. Pedigreed dogs end up in rescue. Nice examples of their breeds end up in rescue. Being a pretty and nicely conformed dog doesn't protect you from an owner's changing circumstances, or being lost and not reclaimed, or any of the other reasons dogs end up in rescue. 

Like I said, if you think rescue dogs are inferior, that's cool. But I disagree, because I'm yet to see any real evidence to suggest that rescued dogs are somehow worse than dogs purchased directly from someone selling them (which, let's not forget, includes backyard breeders). If you have that evidence, front it up. I'd be very interested to see it.

As humans we judge all day every day. We do so consciously and subconsciously, yet we are so focussed on equality as a society. I like to call a spade a spade.

It doesn't mean they are inferior.. But everything is generally unknown. You can't ask about the parents, the dogs nature, what they like, dislike, etc. Their history is typically only as long as they've been in the shelter, and while you can learn a lot about them in a short time it's well known that many dogs won't show their true colours until months later once settled. Same can be said for all dogs, yes... however you can typically piece a bit more together when meeting owners, seeing how they interact with their animal in its natural environment.. and in the case of pups you can at least get half of the backstory.

As I said.. It doesn't make them inferior, however it does place more risk on the buyer.

13 hours ago, Maddy said:

 

What I've said (several times) was that rescues inadvertently devalue their dogs and their own work by not charging a fee that reflects the true cost of rescue. 

The fact that a dog's history is "unknown" does not make the cost of rehoming it any less. A puppy can have all sorts of faults in temperament or health that may not be apparent until the dog is older, but no one expects puppies from breeders to be cheaper because of that fact.  

As for it being a bit rough to compare a dog to a car.. You talk about rescue dogs as is they were inferior to dogs from breeders and your own generosity of "giving your dog a chance", like it was some (hopefully) reformed criminal who may or not ultimately shank you in your sleep. 

If that's your attitude to rescue dogs, cool, we can agree to disagree. 

 

Any need for the dramatisation?

If you're comparing them to breed standards then yes, they are inferior. It doesn't mean they are any less of an animal or less able to love or be loved. It doesn't mean they should be undervalued or under priced for what it costs to adequately rehome them either... and ultimately when you take on a rescue you are giving them a chance at a better life. One where they will be a loved family pet vs shuffled around in fosters or pts. That's before you even begin to touch on the many reasons why an animal ends up in rescue in the first place..

And of course any animal has the potential to have faults in training, temperament, or health. Some could say certain purebreds carry higher risks than the typical rescue. 

5 hours ago, Maddy said:

And who are we to judge the intent of others? Do you know exactly why some other group is charging the prices it charges? Do you know the ins and outs of their financial situation? Do you know enough to be able to say- beyond any doubt- that they rescue only for profit or do you just assume that, because maybe they are actually financially responsible and don't want to run at a loss?

Even if a small rescue group is lucky enough to have the finances to pay their CEO/coordinator/founder, who cares? If someone is doing 8+ hours a day in rescue, why the hell shouldn't they be paid, if the funds are available? Suggesting that rescuers don't deserve pay is again completely devaluing them and the incredibly difficult work they do. 

The people behind many of the smaller rescues are working their fingers to the bone, 24/7, with no weekends, no public holidays, no sick leave, no super, no support. Family, money, home and health are sacrificed for the rescue (which itself is not great for mental health) and yet people balk at the idea of paying them. Because they should ONLY do it for love? Next time our car breaks down, I might ask our mechanic if he'll be doing the work for free. After all, if he loves cars, he should be willing to put his own money and time into fixing ours.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular. I haven't specified what is acceptable pricing and what is not.

You seem to have singled out what you wanted from my original post and made taken it to heart. Go and read it again and you'll see after the part you decided to quote in bold it continued to say "but then you shouldn't really expect everyone who puts in the hard work running the show to do it at their own expense (of time and effort) either. Then you get into the old not for profit organisation business model where some people rake it in, while the business itself makes not money. It really comes down to the individual/businesses intent and ethics more than the dollars involved."

If you want to run a business and make a profit from selling used dogs for a premium price, then go for it. I wish you all the best. That is the beauty of it all. You can do as you please. You can be offended by those who question price or not. You can take others opinions to heart or leave those you disagree with to have their own beliefs. It's a bit rough comparing a living animal to a used car, but ultimately a rescue dog is very similar; you're buying an animal whose origin/history is typically unknown. In my eyes you are 'rescuing/saving' an animal.. distinctly different than shopping or buying a breed of your choice (from responsible breeder or not). In saying that my decision to include a rescue pup as part of our family was based more inline with giving it a chance than weighing up the costs involved.

I'm sorry if I've offended you at all.

10 hours ago, Maddy said:

It adds up to the same thing. Of course rescues should be about helping animals but there is no reason rescues can't also have a bank account in the black. If you have an emergency situation pop up and you don't have spare cash in the bank, you have to do a last minute scramble for funds- which may result in prolonged suffering or even death for an animal- and I think most people would agree that it's an irresponsible way to run a rescue. We should have funds to spare if needed. Many don't/can't because regular expenses eat up every cent they get.

I know of incredibly few rescuers who pay themselves anything or "line their pockets", beside groups like the RSPCA and very large rescues. Show me a small rescue that has a paid CEO and I'll show you the chupacabra I found. And then we can both marvel over things that don't exist.

 

Not to be rude bro, but these attitudes are exactly why rescuers are their own worst enemies. If the rescuers who try to improve the financial stability of their group are accused of "lining their pockets" by people who enjoy playing the poverty-stricken martyrs, nothing will ever get better.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off for an early long weekend on the yacht. 

(yacht = my desk, MS Excel, plugging in some numbers to see how far behind the latest rescue dog has got me)

Edited to update: Looks like I'll lose only $434 on this dog, as long as he's rehomed within two weeks. I guess I'll have to defer the payment on my mercedes this month. Oh well.

 

 

It seems you assume that I expect a business to run in the red just because it's a rescue. Not even the case. I 100% that a rescue should be financially stable. How that is achieved is up to that particular group/organisation..

My opinions purely revolve around a groups intent. Are they in the business of rehoming dogs responsibly or are they in the business of making a dollar. We all know that the majority of rescues (particularly small ones) tend to put the animals welfare first. In a perfect world you could say both could exist, but I tend to be a bit sceptical of peoples ethics once dollars become the main motivator. That is all.

I wasn't talking profit on a per animal basis. 

My point being that a rescue should be interested in primarily rescuing and re homing animals. Not in lining the pockets of the CEO/owners. That's not saying one should have to live on the edge of poverty or dip into personal funds to do so either. 

I'm not sure how I feel about individual pricing on animals based on demand either though. Most people almost always feel like more dollars correlates with better product; ultimately perceiving some dogs as being better simply because they carry a higher price tag.