arawnhaus

I know it's a cute photo and all, but what if that was the start of a problem,problems begin somewhere don't they? Ok one dog allows that but if same child did it to another?

Yep parents watch blah blah, but no sadly they do not always.

Believe it or not, there have been many working line kelpies that have fitted nicely into a surburban home. I think the main aim is that the owners of such dogs provide plenty of mental and physical stimulation to keep its sanity.

A kelpie bred to work should have instincts but if they are not introduced to sheep from an early age, they usually have no idea what to do with the sheep once they are introduced later in life. That is not to say that they won't pick it up eventually...most certainly, and some like fish to water, but I don't believe these guys will ever out perform their siblings who have been introduced to sheep from pups.

Obedience has it's place for obvious reasons.If i tell my dog sit and it does....That makes it a obedient dog and NOT a Working dog because it did what it has been taught what to do.

Totally agree.

The suburban home i specifically mean is the one in which the dog is relegated to that of a backyard with nothing to do inside of it.

Agree with all here.

The 'potential' of the working bred Animal being wasted on boredom and being rehomed after it satisfies itself is what I find sad.

I do not think obedience is anything else but obedience.

To work a dog, to my mind is to put it in service work or practice the next best thing being Dog-sport, Schutzhund IPO VPG and the various Ring sports, KNPV Mondio ring NVBK.In regard to 'service' that covers testing physicality such as farm duties and Guarding,etc anything to really test the dog mentally and physically.

Nothing makes that animal 100% reliable obviously dogs have bad days....as well as Great!

If generations of kelpies have been selected based on their skill "working" farm animals than wouldnt it become second nature for that breed of dog to display this instinct? Therefor IMO it would be much more difficult to obedience train a dog to work with it's owner and to comply to commands that are not instinctual.

And if it's not considered work in the dog sense it is bloody hard work for the owner to get their dog to the upper level of obedience.

I know this is a Great thing among working Animal Breeder's not a negative.What you wrote there is what some people are actually trying to do and some very fortunate breeder's are doing it.

I will not attempt to sway anybody here,but honestly if generations of working Kelpies all of a sudden where placed in pet OB homes....I would cry for them,knowing they have Instincts to be actually performing a Breed-original function and not a silly billy Test for all to clap for.

'Difficult'.......Yes Please!

Obedience has it's place for obvious reasons.If i tell my dog sit and it does....That makes it a obedient dog and NOT a Working dog because it did what it has been taught what to do.

I do not think obedience is anything else but obedience.

To work a dog, to my mind is to put it in service work or practice the next best thing being Dog-sport, Schutzhund IPO VPG and the various Ring sports, KNPV Mondio ring NVBK.In regard to 'service' that covers testing physicality such as farm duties and Guarding,etc anything to really test the dog mentally and physically.

Nothing makes that animal 100% reliable obviously dogs have bad days....as well as Great!

You can add some sliced cheese and a table spoon of yoghurt to your puppies dryfood mixed with some goats milk,these products are all available from your local coles or woolworths.

If you do change dry food be careful to mix the new pieces in with the old ones and gently phase the old out.Honestly I would keep feeding the Bonnie because that is what this bub is used to.

Don't forget, grab a bag of nice fatty meaty lamb bones for puppy.

The puppies do sound light and I would suggest a variety .......

Firstly feed what you are already,unless of course you feel the puppy is not gaining weight it's not good to change diet often.Can I ask if this vet is a stockist of Advance? Many vet's will recommend what they sell at their clinic.

I would add the following:

Yoghurt, cheese,Goats milk. Lamb off cuts, really fleshy fatty type. Feed three meals per day.

Good luck

If I was buying the Advance I would use the rehydratable.

Dog of any age should never piss on you or another person.

Dominant.

Amy

Some breeds attack more than others, this is a fact.

Some breeds are dangerous due to the size power and tenacity they have when they attack.

They also seem to attract dangerous owners.

Dog breeds have no inherent ethical right to exist. It doesn't really matter if the owners or the dogs are to blame.

Banning the breed achieves the same outcome.

Every species has the potential for danger.Even a snail can cause choking and perhaps even death.

I was going to elaborate on this more but why bother.Everthing can kill even lollies.

Cheers

Amy

RIP Baby boy.

R.I.P Scout.

Fly free and happy forever. So sorry to read of your loss. Scout will be watching over you from the Spirit planes.

Amy

It is in fact a submissive posture....and there is nothing wrong with it. It is wrong to stop or interfere with such a natural behaviour simply because either you don't understand it or you might find it 'gross'. These are dogs..not humans in fuzzy suits. They have well programmed instinctual behaviours that are hard wired into them.

So what if they do it for a while? Sorry but I find that more of an intriguing question than a natural canine behaviour.

Agree! They are dogs and that means they are animals.Instincts,fluids,hair,smells,expressions.

Perhaps at last, facts rather than fear will prevail on this issue.

Lets hope so.

Hopefully something which will not be a short term concept.

That's a Great price. I hide it into the food and with the detectives who find ANYTHING hidden I boil water over the tab and give it in milk before bed time. Hmm warm milk...

I keep Natures way.Odourless fish oil 1000mg.Soft gel caps.I use them too and there's no taste or smell. I buy the 180 pack available from Safeway/Woolworths.

In the past I have also added a teaspoon of garlic(minced) into their food a couple of times a week.I've never seen more then two fleas but like all things it's seasonal.

I echo stock feeds. I actually notice in petstock near where I live their is a $12 price diff from my normal stock feed store.

Good luck.

My heart breaks , my tears ,my sobs will never leave

for today I lost my Heart dog , my best friend , my mate.

Good Bye My darlin' , My Old Biddy

Thank you for the years of love and joy you gave to me .

Now you are forever free of pain .

love you heaps.

Until we meet again .

;)

By the edge of a woods, at the foot of a hill,

Is a lush green meadow, where time stands still.

Where the friends of man and woman do run,

When their time on earth is over and done.

For here, between this world and the next,

Is a place where each beloved creature finds rest.

On this golden land, they wait and they play,

Till the Rainbow Bridge they cross over one day.

No more do they suffer, in pain or in sadness,

For here they are whole, their lives filled with gladness.

Their limbs are restored, their health renewed,

Their bodies have healed, with strength imbued.

They romp through the grass, without even a care,

Until one day they start, and sniff at the air.

All ears prick forward, eyes dart front and back,

Then all of a sudden, one breaks from the pack.

For just at that instant, their eyes have met,

Together again, both person and pet.

So they run to each other, these friends from long past,

The time of their parting is over at last.

The sadness they felt while they were apart,

Has turned into joy once more in each heart.

They embrace with a love that will last forever,

And then, side-by-side, they cross over... together.

Goodbye Sinna, rest easy lady of the skies above. A new star in the sky. Blessings and hugs to you Loraine during this time of pain.take care and be strong.

RIP Sinna.

xx oo

Amy

from the GSD council of Australia

GSDCA Policy on Schutzhund Training.

The German Shepherd Dog Council of Australia fully supports the position as adopted (after consultation with its Member Bodies) by the ANKC regarding Schutzhund as follows :

* All previous resolutions regarding Schutzhund up to and including May 1994 are rescinded.

* ANKC will not take responsibility for the management nor control of Schutzhund in Australia. Also, the ANKC will not recognize any Schutzhund titles awarded in Australia or to any dog awarded a title resident in Australia.

* No Member body of the ANKC shall recognize or approve Schutzhund training activity or conduct Schutzhund Trial competition and any member taking part risks disqualification.

ANKC Member Bodies consider Schutzhund training is not in the best interests of their activities.

Beat me to it, I was reading this only last night writing out a response in my head to jed.

Great post lili. My thoughts are In keeping with this.

I think much depends on how you define pack -

do hyenas function and hunt as a pack?

They're also one of the biggest free loader scavengers on the continent

what about lions, do they live in packs?

Is the definition of 'pack' how an animal hunts or why it hunts -

who/what defined the boundaries of what constitutes a pack?

Like any theory / or legal document how you define the boundaries and parameters of key words, influences not only how a theory / document is to be understood -

but it also tells you a lot about the philosophical platform from which it was engendered.

Langauge can be cleverly repackaged - I am not sure from what I have read of ray

that he is purporting anything significantly different

other than setting parameters for what he thinks is pack, and then going on with creation from there.

Why groups of feral town dogs are referred to as a point of references, I don't know

Already they share their territory with humans and therefore to a certain extent consider humans as part of their environmental hierachy.

All animals have environmental hierachy - but I guess that depends on how you define environmental hierachy

LGDs that patrol open range will hunt and obtain their own food - what keeps them with the stock is not just a need for survival of the self -

otherwise they would not follow the herd, nor protect them from danger, nor refrain from eating the yummy ones when they get hungry.

Incidently this is what makes a shiite LGD - the ones that eat the stock when no one is watching

ie: the LGD whose sense of pack is less engrained than others. (nb: what turns a lion into a rogue lion ie one that kills both female and males of its species and does not form a lion pack?)

I do think that some dogs/breed have less instinct for pack than others

but it does not mean I have to redefine 'pack' in hunting terms only and conclude that technically 'pack' is not corect to use when referrng to dogs.

Before any species can do anything together - their must be some kind of organizational structure in place.

Ray imo has focused only one of the reasons this organisational structure exists.

Social behaviours have and do evolve depending on the niche environment (as do physical characteristics), but to pack is merely a developmental process to a specific habitat. The early protodog did not pack as there was no reason for it to and was not beneficial to it's existence. This flowed on to our domestic dog today. As you said, they wait for food to come to them. Since "packing" is not genetic behaviour it would be unfair and incorrect to term our dogs as "pack animals" who display "pack behaviours". Therefore whilst various behaviours have evoled either to accommodate the environment or by way of artificial selection, I believe our dogs do not and will not show any form of true pack behaviour (altered or not) in their existence today.

Hmmm...

So then, If the present Dog didn't have the Intrusion of Man upon it any longer,would the Dog revert back to early days and into a fully reliant Wolf community or would an entirely different species of animal appear, I guess we will never know...

Canines of today unlike the Ancestor Wolf,live in quite artificial environments,it's unlikely they will have the skills and/or the thought process to truly be 'pack' structured,so they probably would either die out,due to a lack of skill and ability to commune together or they would slowly kill each other. Maybe maybe not..

Just my thoughts..

I've just finished reading your Interesting Article.Thank you, Excellent food for thought.

Hmm.... off to have a ponder now....

Amy

What Schutzhund is doing, and what it was intended to do seem to be very different things.

What do you mean?

I know some folks do the Sch Ob, but don't participate in the Bitework,is this what you mean by that?

I'm all curious too! lol

Amy

Just a question on this - are the people that want to join vetted in any way for mental stability?????????

Are you talking about Dogzonline or Schutzhund?

Erny I'm waiting for John McDoanld to get back to me so I can further answer on what the charges are.

Delkerabo, thanks for putting up the info from Michael Burns.

Craig, Good to see you in the conversation. Good coverage of points.

Can I just ask that people stick to the topic at hand rather than champion their cause. I know this upsets people and I'm pleased to see the responses and the efforts of people trying to help.

In the end we will need everyone because I really dont believe many people are looking beyond whats happening here. Dog people need to stick together!

Good question, julesp is that dogzonline or Schutzhund?

No worries Erny& HR, good press is always welcome surrounding these subjects..

Amy

I can't remember the details but some time ago a man was taken to court in victoria because he did schutzhund, deemed "attack work" with his rottweiler and it was decided something like the training had actually made the dog more stable ?

anyone have more details ?

I could be wrong, however I believe this may have been the case that led to the amendments in the law to cover anything worn or attached to a person. I recall reading a similar comment from the magistrate regarding the increased training level making the dog more stable therefore not a dangerous dog.

So it was acknowledged that the training created a more stable dog, yet brought in laws so they could out-law it?

ETA: If anyone can find this 'report' it would be handy and quite probably useful

Found it, this is the open letter regarding Michael Burn's successful case against Casey Shire Council.

This is and open to all those interested in the truth and the betterment of of pure breed dogs.

TO Helen Furber

MR. DON BURKE of Burke's Backyard

Mr. JOHN LAWS of Radio Station 2 UE

DR. HUGH WIRTH Austn RSPCA President

Helen I do not know where you got your information from but, I can honestly tell you it is the biggest load of cods wallop I have ever heard.

It was not the RNSWCC that the AUS was looking affiliation it was the ANKC.

Point 1. There are only three stages to Schutzhund, they are Part A Tracking, Part B Obedience and Part C Character Assessment or Protection. There are three Levels, they are Schutzhund I, Schutzhund II and Schutzhund III.

The purpose of the sport is to ensure the natural breed characteristics are maintained and the the dog is of good calm nerves and will be controllable and act predictably in high stress situation. This is one of the reasons all European Search and rescue dog go through Schutzhund Training. This is not so that they can kill the person they find and have them for dinner. But ensure the dog is of good character before they commence their search and rescue training.

Most recently I personally challenged the City of Casey in Victoria who declared My male Rottweiler as a dangerous dog, not because he bite anyone but because he was being trained is this Internationally recognised sport.

I have included the five findings handed down in the Victorian Administrative Appeals Tribunal which clearly states there is no danger as a result of a dog being trained in the sport of Schutzhund and in fact there is less likely the dog would attack.

Australian United Schutzhund Clubs are very please to announce that the decision on the appeal lodged in the Administration appeals Tribunal of Victoria, against the declaration of Mr. Michael J Burns' male Rottweiler Dreistleigh Satchmoe (A) BH ZTP AD as a dangerous dog was set aside.

The presiding member Mr. D A Mattei in making his decision to set aside the declaration made the following findings.

1. " I find on the evidence before me that such attack is limited on the sleeve worn by the helper or agitator and does not ever or in any way extend to an attack on any other portion of his or her person, with the focus of the dog being on the hesian or padded sleeve."

2. "In my view the can be best described as sterile or simulated or hollow."

3. "I find further on the evidence there is no basis whatsoever for the suggestion which was raised at the hearing before me that there is a risk of "boilover" or that there is a "second command" whereby the dog is required to follow the attack on the sleeve by making a further or extended attack on another part or other parts of the person of the helper."

4. "I find on the evidence that, apart from the subject training attacks, the subject dog has never attacked or bittern a person and that such training has not rendered it more likely to do so but rather, if anything, less likely."

5. "I find that the subject training is far removed from the training undergone by guard or security dogs were the entirely different objective is to injure and where the helper wears a full body protective suit."

I think it is about time the pure breed dog people took a good look in there own backyard as there many people exploiting the dog for there own monetary gain and at the end of the day it is all us dog lovers that will suffer.

Dear Helen, can I give you some advise for the future, please go out find out the facts before you listen to people that have no real knowledge or experience in an activity which they don't understand and are scared of because it looks dangerous.

I have a lovely two year old daughter who plays with my dogs all three Rottweilers and if I thought there any danger in this activity I would stop today but the facts are that it is of true benefit to the animals as it provides an opportunity for them to live out their inter species related behaviors. (do you what they are?)

Just write down exactly what you to describe rugby to someone who absolutely nothing about it in a very technical term and you would be horrified, what it would appear to be.

Michael John Burns

Machtzucht Kennels

President

Australian United Schutzhund Clubs