GreatDanz

"If it helps to describe what this little bugger is going through - his skin gets really oily within days of a bath. That's when the scratching is at its most extreme and totally unlike the other guys, despite the fact that the organ damage was much more severe (from the envenomation) in the other male - cortisone was never needed for irritated skin in this particular male." I know with people extremely dry skin wil cause your oil glands to work overtime trying to even things out again. The fish oil caps should help but I'd add in some fresh and canned fish too. You may want to cut down on the baths and give his skin a chance to work itself out. I don't understand your question on organs, maybe something's getting lost in the translation? Watch out for those butchers!

Raz, can you get canned fish easily? It's also a great source of Omega 3's.

I am not TELLING anyone to do anything, just challenging them to give it a try! Disclaimer: The next sentence is without "tone" or spite.... Frankly, you can't make all the people happy all the time. I thought the best way to go about this was to simply make my case. Guess I'm just not a 'beat around the bush' kind of person. On the positive side, you'll never have to wonder how I feel about something. I always thought mystery was overrated anyway. In regards to feeding heart, I LOVE the term 'special muscle meat', that's great!!!

But the thing is...if peoples dogs are doing beautifully on kibble or what ever....why should they change over? even for a two month trial? just because someone says they could be doing better? It's up to the individual and their dog as to what food works best, i feed mostly BARF...but the fact that others don't doesn't upset me...as long as the food they feed their dog is decent quality and their dogs are healthy what business is it of mine? well...actually...in general what business of is it of mine what others feed their dogs? That's why it's a challenge. I'm hoping that people will have the same experience that I have had with my pups, even the one that didn't have any medical issues. Much to my suprise, he went from looking great to looking phenomenal!

OK, t-time, point taken. This thread was written to those that don't feed raw though, and I have seen quite a few out there. All I am asking for is a two month trial, if they don't like it, then they go back. Simple as that. It looks like this thread may have convinced one poster on here to give it a go, and my hat goes off to them. :rolleyes: "Would love it if someone would throw dead roos over my fence but I source most of my meat from home-kill. I live in a rural area too." Isn't that the truth! Of course for me it would be chickens and cows, but I'd take it! It is amazing what a dog will eat, well, except Java who is the anti-dog.... If I even change is brand of ground beef he won't want to eat for a day or two. Anyone who has fed raw and hasn't had success is welcome to share their points of view here too. I love learning more about this subject. Anyway, I'll move to the side now since I have somewhat achieved my goal. Hopefully the one poster will have as much success as I have had, but I wish all your sweet puppies the best of health always!

If you don't want to be a part of this discussion then don't respond to the thread. It's also not titled "PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO COME AND BITCH WHEN THEY DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE TIME OR $$ FEEDING RAW" RAW has been a positive diet for a multitude of dogs with different conditions, from allergies to IBS. FYI: Main Entry: car·niv·o·ra Pronunciation: kär-'niv-&-r& Function: noun plural 1 capitalized : an order of eutherian mammals that are mostly carnivorous and have teeth adapted for flesh eating 2 : carnivorous animals; especially : members of the order Carnivora —car·ni·vore /'kär-n&-"vO(&)r, -"vo(&)r/ noun -ALSO- carnivora \Car*niv"o*ra\, n. pl. [NL., neut. pl. from L. carnivorus. See Carnivorous.] (Zo["o]l.) An order of Mammallia including the lion, tiger, wolf bear, seal, etc. They are adapted by their structure to feed upon flesh, though some of them, as the bears, also eat vegetable food. The teeth are large and sharp, suitable for cutting flesh, and the jaws powerful. I never made the claim that dogs could not survive if food other than meat was fed, it's not nutritionally NECESSARY to feed them, but if your dogs enjoy veggies then feed them! They certainly are not going to do any harm. Thank you for the mature educational post. You are still being smug and generally nasty. Right, because the previous post was well thought out and kind. I did take time to read posts from some of the regulars on here, and my response is catered to the poster based on my perception of their game. You should lift your game. Nope, thanks for the advice though. What is your problem? My problem? I really don't appreciate "rolly-eyed" advice and criticism on nutrition from people who think feeding your dog puppy food so you can feed less is a good idea. Do you enjoy portraying yourself as a prat? I have little patience for people who join threads simply to start a flame war. If you have something worthwhile or educational to add, please make sure you come back and share it. Why do you expend so much energy vilifying people who mildly disagree with some of your more contentious posts? I'm sorry, my post was contentious? OK, sure..... You seem to feel threatened by people who don't share your simplistic views on feeding canines. No, I think those that are being forced to THINK about what they are putting into their canines are feeling threatened, I feel just fine! You do not do yourself or your "cause" a service by this sort of stuff: It could be thought that you are being deliberately antagonistic and offensive. I'd be very surprised if any one thinks that is not your main aim. Thank you for your kindness! :rolleyes: The facts are that canis lupus familiaris is not an obligate carnivore. You will not be able to provide any reliable scientific source that says otherwise. Ever. So don't try What a coincidence, that's EXACTLY what I posted here: http://forums.dogzonline.com.au/index.php?...=obligate&st=15 Dogs eat meat, and they eat vegies. Get over it, accept it, and move on. That's right, however their nutrition comes from the meat. They can eat veggies, it certainly won't hurt anything. And stop being so nasty and obnoxious; it does not become you. But it certainly adds to your charm! Nasty, nasty, nasty; uncalled for and unwarranted. And???

Has he been tested for heartworm? Or maybe an irregular heartbeat? Taking his temp is also a good idea.

If you don't want to be a part of this discussion then don't respond to the thread. It's also not titled "PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO COME AND BITCH WHEN THEY DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE TIME OR $$ FEEDING RAW" RAW has been a positive diet for a multitude of dogs with different conditions, from allergies to IBS. FYI: Main Entry: car·niv·o·ra Pronunciation: kär-'niv-&-r& Function: noun plural 1 capitalized : an order of eutherian mammals that are mostly carnivorous and have teeth adapted for flesh eating 2 : carnivorous animals; especially : members of the order Carnivora —car·ni·vore /'kär-n&-"vO(&)r, -"vo(&)r/ noun -ALSO- carnivora \Car*niv"o*ra\, n. pl. [NL., neut. pl. from L. carnivorus. See Carnivorous.] (Zo["o]l.) An order of Mammallia including the lion, tiger, wolf bear, seal, etc. They are adapted by their structure to feed upon flesh, though some of them, as the bears, also eat vegetable food. The teeth are large and sharp, suitable for cutting flesh, and the jaws powerful. I never made the claim that dogs could not survive if food other than meat was fed, it's not nutritionally NECESSARY to feed them, but if your dogs enjoy veggies then feed them! They certainly are not going to do any harm. Thank you for the mature educational post.

"When I'm told by dog food reps in pet barn, or vet nurses at my (holistic!) vets', that I'm risking my dogs lives by feeding them raw, it annoys me, but it also scares me. The dogs who I'm feeding raw now look great, and are recovering really well from their various complaints. I have a gut feeling I'm doing the right thing, but I don't have any means of comparing their condition now to how they'd be if they were eating supercoat everyday, as our previous dog did. She had bad skin and died at 6 yrs from osteosarcoma - she was on supercoat and a pharmacuetical oil thing specifically for her skin but I have no way of knowing if I could have helped her then by feeding her a different diet... " Mana, you are doing the right thing by being skeptical, this is your baby, you need to take care of her, right? Let me just say this, if you were truly putting your dog's life in danger, wouldn't there be at least ONE person on here telling us their horrible story? The chances of this diet killing your dog are slim, very slim. Give it a try, if it doesn't work for you just switch back. :D

I would put him back on chicken, and then once every few weeks add a veggie or a new meat. I agree with the others, the allergy is probably a result of grains or chemicals in the kibble. My younger dane had the same problem with kibble until he was 7 months and I switched him to RAW. Since then, it's never come back.

I changed Mickey first to raw because of skin problems and chronic diarrhea. They have both cleared up beautifully! IMO, a lot of the allergy problems are caused by grains. If there is a meat source causing problems, it's pretty easy to find others they can eat.

This is a perfect example of misreading a "tone" through electronic communication. I am not superior, but I am smart enough to know that there are a ton of things out there that I know nothing about. I have attempted to present the facts in an objective, logical manner. I guess some may have read it as "cold" or "snobby", but that interpretation is way off base. I fed kibble too, and now I feed RAW. I am speaking from my own experience and the experience of thousands of others around the world that I have met over the internet. It would be an immense JOY for me if one person would try it and say "Hey, my dog is healthier and happier because of this wonderful diet!" There is nothing like sharing the joy of a wonderful discovery with other dog fanatics! Either way, I have thoroughly enjoyed the exchange of information that has been spured by this thread. I can see that there are many intelligent people on this board that I can learn a lot from. Then there are some others...... Raz, I would be thrilled to exchange information with you during your raw journey if you should choose to take it.

Have you read How to Win Friends and Influence People by any chance? Have you?

Your smugness is only exceeded by your scientific inccuraracy. You cut and paste selected articles from the web (we all could do that but we dont) and say that they prove your case Ever wondered why so many here on DOL are asking you to prove your points? Could it be that possibly you don't have a leg to stand on ? Or possibly you've chewed off that leg and limped home on three? I don't find your challenge threatening; ho hum. I doubt that any of us do. I do find your tone patronizing. idle hands UM, yea, it's called evidence. I don't see anyone asking me to prove my point, I see people providing good information and asking legitimate questions. Unlike you, who apparently has nothing better to do than leave ignorant immature posts like this. BTW, STILL waiting for your "proof" that what I am saying is inaccurate, or could it be that you don't have any and you're just a TROLL looking for a pissing match? Either way, you obviously don't have anything useful to add.

That is another reason dogs don't often get food poisoning. This dog would do best on thoroughly vitamised food. When you say "that is another reason", what do you mean by that? Also, please provide more information on your suggestion of a thoroughly vitamised food. What are the benefits to this situation?

Have you ever heard the saying "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all"? I'm sorry you find my challenge so threatening, I can only assume you do because of your unwarranted attack. I have simply provided scientific data on why domestic dogs would thrive on a raw diet, why are you threatened by that? Don't be afraid, give it a try, you'll be so pleased at the benefits your dog will reap!

"Greatdanz - meat, offal, bones. P:Ca ratio? Complete? Balanced?" Hi Jed, I don't worry too much about measuring out the exact amounts of each type given, I just make sure they get a little of everything every week. Their meals generally go like this: Mickey (white dane, male, 193.5 lbs, 1 year 7 months) Daily: chicken with bones, usually chicken quarters; ground beef with bone meal and other meat pre-mix (see Java's meals); pork ribs.... Twice a week: Organs, usually mixed in gr. beef, and Tripe, they LOVE green tripe!; raw or slightly cooked eggs; fish (usually canned) Any time: Recreational bones, i.e. marrow bones Java (fawn dane, male, 165 lbs., 2 years 6 months) Daily: Ground beef with bone meal, mixed in with some sort of other meat like cornish hen, lamb, rabbit (these are usually ordered ground pre-mix with some pureed veggies and organs already in there). Java will NOT eat bones, so I use the bone meal to provide critical nutrients that otherwise would be absent. Twice a week: Organs, usually mixed in gr. beef, and Tripe; raw or slightly cooked eggs; fish (usually canned) Any time: Recreational bones, i.e. marrow bones

Actually, the reason dogs don't come down with these types of bacterial infections is because of the chemical makeup of their digestive system. Practically the whole gastrointestinal tract of a carnivore is sterile. The hydrochloric acid in the stomach ensures that most bacteria and other micro-organisms food are killed, those that escape the stomach are rarely able to survive the digestive processes. In the small intestine food is digested and enters the blood stream. I would imagine that any dog that lost that much small intestine would need some sort of easily digestible food, it seems like plain lean meat would be the best choice. Fats are more difficult to digest, so I would stay away from fatty meats and trim any cuts I gave.

That's wonderful!!! :D :D I used satin balls for my older guy when he went through a TOO skinny stage. They are like magic!

"some dogs can't eat bones (digestive problems). Also, I know a dog that at 6 feet of her own intestines after being desexed, I would never even attempt to feed her a raw diet for fear that her digestive tract may not be long enough to kill bacteria." There will always be certain medical cases where many diets will not be appropriate. In the case mentioned above, I would still feed a home made diet before I'd feed kibble.

There you go again rambling on before actually reading and corresponding the responses. I never once said that kibble was better than raw, I mentioned other contributing factors that wolves in the wild do not have such as polution, you would be a mug not to understand the link between factors such as polution/additional chemicals in our day-to-day lives which depelets our minerals/proteins/trace elements in our own systems and items that are around us, there are indeed studies on it, not that you would need one, it's pretty much common sense. I'm stoked that your danes have responded well to raw meat, great for you, just because it worked for you doesn't mean it works for everyone. One good thing is not a good thing for all. Do you have a background in Science? I do, so I see things logicaly, I believe what is proven in either clinical/non-clinical trials. I'd really wish you'd stop comparing wolves to dogs, they are not the same, similar but not the same, they lives in compltely different evironments, so their needs are differents. Anyway, that's all from me, this thread is doing my head in. OK, I see you haven't shown me any studies that support what you keep insisting to be the case. I'll still welcome any links or literature that proves these differences. In the meantime, some prozac may help with your little problem, I still don't understand your animosity.

Thank you Ma'am, and the same right back at ya!!!! I'm always interested in learning new holistic treatments, if you ever find anything interesting please pass it my way.

"My best Christmas morning, was waking up to a bunch of drunken locals (think 'deliverance' music!!) yelling out Merry Christmas, and tipping 44 gallon drums of freshly dead cow onto my front yard! they were in ripped shorts & singlets, santa hats and staggering about my front lawn with chainsaws cutting up cow bits and clutching beers - AND singing christmas carols!!!!!! aaaahhh, the country!!!" ROFLMAO!!!!!! ;) ;) ;) What a great story!!!!

Here's the link again: http://secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/ Hopefully it will work this time On the inside one would hope that all dogs are the same, but when it comes to how their 'insides' function, genetics, environmental factors etc you can't treat them all the same... I know what the thread is about, but I feel that there are a few that feed BARF that do have a 'down your throat' approach...If you are going to challenge someone to try a raw diet then you are going to then be challenged from others with different ideals... For my dogs it is a mixture of raw and kibble...due to the way my dogs 'insides' function, this has been the best method for them... We've had so many dogs and I think about all the different methods of feeding we have used, and especially working with a racing animal, and I can honestly say that not one method has 'stuck' out more than another, again it came down to what worked best for that dog... Mel Worked this time Mel, thanks. ;) I have seen this web page before, but I have been unable to substantiate this woman's claim in regards to the dangers of raw feeding. For example, she has done interviews at veterinary schools. Well, I have not yet found a veterniary school that wasn't backed by one or many of the major kibble companies. Did you know that vets are only required to take one or two classes in nutrition to get their degree? As far as I know, it's not even catered to canines or any other animal, just general nutrition. Veterinarians have a vested interest in debunking the raw diet, for one, most raw fed dogs never have to go in for dental cleanings. Most, I believe 85%, of kibble fed dogs have periodontal disease by 3 years old. Can you imagine the amount of revenue this generates for clinics? Raw feeders will also not buy the vet brand foods that they sell at the clinics, another loss of revenue. Raw fed dogs have a decrease of allergies and other generic illnesses since their immune system performs much better, another potential loss of revenue for the clinics. Do you see what I am saying? I personally have a wonderful holistic vet that fully supports my feeding raw. She also supports my decision not to do repeated vaccinations on my dogs. We do the 3-year rabies as required by law, but that is it.

Fifi, it's nice to hear that you are making such a grand effort to give your dogs the best you can. That really shows a lot about your character! And might i say, I LOVE Irish Wolfhounds! They are just such an outstanding breed, friendly and amazingly calm temperaments. Have you ever considered raising your own stock? Now I know this isn't for everyone, I personally could never do it, but I know that people raised in farm/livestock areas often have a different view.