imy

\The way I got around her sooking and crashing around in the crate was actually by getting rid of it altogether. She now has a trampoline bed that she stays on... and if she gets up in the middle of the night, I can growl "GOTOBED" without needing to get up myself and she slinks back and quietly goes to sleep. I don't know exactly what it was about the crate vs bed that stopped the sooking but hey... who's complaining?

I say stop feeding him in the pen altogether and bring him up to the house to feed him. Crate him and stand there and just wait until he is quiet.... the SECOND he is, plonk down the food bowl. Like I did with Kaeleigh, you can build it up a bit over time so that he's quiet for a few minutes before you feed him... but I agree that he's not associating noise vs quiet with not eating vs eating, BECAUSE when he does eventually shut up he still doesn't get his dinner... if you see what I mean. If you're going to with-hold a reward until he presents the desired behaviour, you need to actually give it when he DOES offer the behaviour... which you've been missing unfortunately. In his mind... he's noisy and he doesn't get food.. but when he shuts up (after you've gone) he doesn't get it either. I'm not picking you to bits because christ I understand how frustrating it is (could throttle Kaeleigh some days ) but sometimes it's hard to look at things objectively when you're close to them. I can imagine it would be tricky to stand down there and wait until he's quiet which is why I think you should forget feeding him down there altogether. Bring him up to the house, wait until he's shut up and then feed.. good luck to ya!

I like the way you think!

My current foster is a morning sooker. She is only now getting to know that "SHH!" Means be quiet and lay down, when she does, she gets "Good girl!" (which she knows as a positive thing now) I don't move a muscle when she sooks in the morning. Just a strict sounding "SHH!" So she gets no positive stuff until she does what I want, then, its "Good Girl!" IMMEDIATELY. Its working when we go upstairs and she's left downstairs too (she used to sook heaps)

First I had to train her with "Good Girl" as a positive.

It took her about 4 days worth of sooking for an hour in the morning (at 5am) before she would lay back down and settle but when she got that positive "good girl!" She started realising it was what I wanted... no treats, no negatives.

At first, when I said "Good girl" she'd jump back up and sook again, but I didn't move, didn't even open my eyes, just "SHH!"

Its taken a few weeks, and she still occasionally does it, but rarely.

I just wish my OH's kids were as easy to train... they are up at the crack of dawn, no matter what we say! :laugh

I wasn't that attached, just that she was pretty fun for a chook. She was real attitude and could hold her own with the other chooks, used to run at them with little fluffy flares on her legs, all spikey. It looked like Gizmo the nice gremlin gone mad!

I wonder if the continuous days of hot weather may have got the better of her? They have good shelter and water but its been days and days of 33+ and yesterday she was a bit groggy on her feet.

Also, we have a bushfire close down the road and the smoke is terrible.

Maybe even a tick or snake?

I don't know.

Poor little bantam-bugger

I will plant a fruiting lilly-pilly tree where she is buried so all the other birds can enjoy what she brings to life for them.

I try not to get emotional about the chooks but she was so damned full-o-character. She looked like a punk.

Doesn't look like a tick to me... they are glossier after they have gorged themselves on loads of blood, you would be able to see their little legs around the head and redness on your dog where it has latched on (though, that may be the case with a mole if you've been sussing it out)

We get quite a few around here. Some aren't the paralysis type so there may nit be sumptoms like dizziness or paralysis involved.

That looks like a mole to me.... but I'll do that same old chant... If in doubt, see a vet

I disagree, I think they are VERY sharp. Thats the problem

I don't think he is associating the whinging with no-dinner. I like the way you give him attention when he stops whinging, its an instant reward, but if everyone else had dinner and I didn't AND I didn't know why, I think I'd sook louder than ever!

Maybe some specific treat training would work better? Like: Have the treats there when you go to his pen, something he really loves... make no eye contact but when he stops sooking BANG! treat instantly and link it with a sound like "shhhh" so he knows that when you say "shhh" you want him to be quiet. Do it again and again and again.

Not giving him his dinner isn't rewarding him for what he is doing well. He needs to know what you want him to do before you can punnish him for disobeying orders.

If anyone disagrees, let me know! I am by no means an expert with dogs.

Ha,ha,ha!

Maybe I'll wait a few days so I'm not bidding against you and bumping up the porices

Thats it!

I'm getting on ebay and buying a hand mincer! Sounds like yummy fun for us AND the dogs (and I can out it to use when we buy cheapo cuts and they turn out to be inedible )

Lucky duck kaywoman!

Mine have to settle for the minced off-cuts from the butchers.

I have noticed that some pre-packed roo meat is practically swimming in a blueish-greenish preserving mix

oh... I dunno about pins ... they are pretty muscley around their bums, I think from up the stairs zoomies

Getting better!

Gingks has some gooood vertebrae... Ray has one... kinda

Isn't that sad?

Which has less fat????

I'd probably go for B because I feed only a little bit of dry kibble and its mainly for the fibre anyway... which is, the cereals.

Also, I thought meat-meal WAS by-products!

Human grade mince does not contain colours and preservatives,

Er... yep, it does.

If you buy from a good butcher and ask what is in it, they'll usually tell you straight out.

Ours has specific signs on SOME of their mince saying "use within 24 hours of purchase, does not contain preservatives"

Here ya go:

http://www.supercoat.com.au/dir016/superco...ycleRange_Puppy

Edited to add: 28% (just so you don't have to click the link)

I've been researching diets lots Here ya go:

"Most breeders have discovered that feeding a diet that is high in protein usually contributes to the Hip Dysplasia factor and when a growing large breed dog is fed a diet that is lower in protein than some commercial puppy foods their breeding dogs are thus screened with a lower score. We prefer to feed our dogs from the age of three months a commercial kibble adult dog food as this usually has a much lower protein level at 25% than a commercial puppy food that has a protein level of as high as 34%."

(from a large breed forum)

"Your older dog will need a well-balanced diet that is lower in calories, protein, and fat yet higher in fiber. You may be able to continue feeding your dog her regular food, but in a smaller quantity. Or you may need a specially formulated senior diet. Commercially prepared senior diets have a protein of around 18% whereas diets for dogs in renal failure are around 14% protein. If your dog has significantly decreased kidney function, then a diet lower in protein will lower the workload for the kidneys. Lower fat usually translates to lower calories so many senior diets have a fat level of around 10 to 12%. Older dogs are more prone to develop constipation, so senior diets are higher in fiber (around 3 to 5%). You can also add wheat bran to regular dog food to increase fiber intake. Finally, feeding your dog dry food (if she will eat it) will help to control tartar build-up and reduce gum disease. "

(general old dog health site)

http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html

(this site is a REALLY detailed focus on protein)

Hope it helps (too much time on my hands :D )

Pfffttt! NoOO! The quiche has cooked eggs and onions, stuff I don't feed my greys

Don't worry... I voted labs too.

Ha,ha... thanks.

I don't want to burn anyone at the stake and I'm sure no one wants to burn anyone else --> again

I think its one of those things where opinions get heated (we all love our own opinions after all). Everyone here dearly love dogs, obviously, and want the best for others they see.

Radar has a way to go, I was looking at him tonight, but he'll be right

They are spoilt rotten, I'll admit it. They get the best of things that I can provide for them. I can't help but think they deserve it after having a non-spoilt start to life... however, I do need to do what is best for them, hence this thread. I don't want it to get out of hand.

Is this about the fact that I like to research to back up theories?

Edited to add:

I don't understand why everyone is getting their backs up so high... didn't I agree that Radar needs to remain on a diet... Gingko has lost some flab so I can see his 3 last ribs and vertebrae... what does everyone want?

I asked before they went on a diet.

Gingko is at the weight I got him now, he has dropped about a kg since his diet. Not overweight. (the white one)

Radar has a little ways to go.

Thats good news.

Edited to add:

I hope that you're not implying that by researching my problem, I am insulting the people here

I'm not disagreeing with peoples' opninions about my boys, my animals ARE on a diet to lose weight. I'm simply arguing that there are differing opinions to refer to, rather than ONLY ones stated here. I am backing up my arguments with data and experience by trained and knowledgeable people, rather than by using only anocdotal and limited experience of my own. I am RESEARCHING a problem and offering the result of my research for others.

How is this insulting? I am not discrediting experienced people here.

You're very lucky that EVERYONE experienced with GSDs agrees with you, I wonder if YOU would be researching if they didn't?

No animal should have ribs that, when you lay your fingers into the indentations, they are flush with the height of the ribs. NONE

I'm not disagreeing with peoples' opninions about my boys, my animals ARE on a diet to lose weight. I'm simply arguing that there are differing opinions to refer to, rather than ONLY ones stated here. I am backing up my arguments with data and experience by trained and knowledgeable people, rather than by using only anocdotal and limited experience of my own. I am RESEARCHING a problem and offering the result of my research for others.

If you'd rather not hear facts and experience of the opposite nature to your own opinion, perhaps you'd best not look in contrvertial threads?

I'm sorry Lillysmum,

I think Lilly is very underweight.

Does she have thyroid probs? I was looking at photos of greys last night and she was one which stood out as too thin. Also bart but he is a goofy teen and probably has higher energy levels.

I also consulted racing books and their description was for dogs to have 'slight definition of one or two vertebrae and the final one or two ribs... coat should have lustre and gums showing dark pink to red... stool should have the consistancy of gingerbread dough and be evacuated easily 2 times a day, evening and morning... changes to stool showing too white or too black means either the dog is digesting too many bones or too much vitamin A in the form of liver'

My boys have all of the signs of greyhounds in good health, whilst I don't mind them dropping a few pounds on this diet and getting ready for summer, there is NO way I will be going back to racing weight or under it.

I've also had a talk to racing people and vets about their weight and while they agree that you wouldn't want any more weight on my boys ( I am fully aware that they are well covered and understand that they shouldn't get fatter), they look healthy and as retired racers should.

Having said this, my boys wil remain on their reduced diet until I am happy with their one or two rib definition and couple of vertebrae.

Here is an example of what a full grown greyhound may eat over the period of a day according to my vetinary search:

1.5-1.8lb fresh meat (no more than 25% fat)

5-8oz kibble with a fat content of no more than 15%

Rice and grains to the equivilant of kibble, reducing amount should the animal show they require less energy content

They also say that the effect of vegetables in a greyhounds diet are nominal though some trainers still prefer to feed both root and green vegetables.

Oil additives are also sometimes required but daily dosing of such should be extremely monitored.

My boys will lose a little but won't be going extreme.