cactus

Caution!

Possible dumb question follows:

How do you interpret the scores?

Wow myszka, looking at the prices of remote e-collars- over $400

Are they all that expensive??

:D What a bootiful girl myszka- however will you hand her back??!!

I know what you are going thru Julie- my Zara is the same, well she pulls hard ALL the time but when she sees something, boy! Yup- I thought i was going to get a broken finger the other day. I resorted to using the infin8 head halter *and* a choke chain- I put a short leash on both and tied the two leashes together so I had a comfortable grip. It made it more bearable, BUT you cant leave the infin8 head halter on when you unclip the leash- the dog easily pulls it off. Sooo during her romp she'd start getting rough with a little doggie and I'd just have to clip the leash to the choke chain and use the full force of my body weight to bring her back under control. I liked the Halti better because that can stay on the dog without a leash to keep it there. I had a gentle leader style halter but she broke it after after a few days of pulling hard. I dont think any of the collars you mentioned will do the trick I swear when Zara REALLY wants to go, that damned choke chain would have to embed itself in her throat before it would stop her. There have been two occassions where I just had to let go and helplessly hope for the best. I'm the last person able to give advice on this topic, but I'm trying to locate a professional who can help me with this problem- if I find her/him, I'll pass on whatever I learn.

Jyra looks Beautiful! How old is she?

All the best!

I once bought some human-grade roo mince for my pets. It stank! My cat ran and hid and the dog went to her bed. This was fresh mince, but pooh! I'll never buy it again. I'd hate to smell it cooking <gag>

cactus

Congratulations Alison! I'm glad it has all gone so well for you! I know what a relief that is :p I hope you have a lovely time enjoying the rest of your holiday :D

cactus

Sorry, I wasn't referring to DogTech as animal Behaviourists, I was meaning the new one you find.

Oh. Ooops!

We went to the park this afternoon, and it went great. REALLY great! I'm not going to bother with another behaviourist- she is doing so well, and a lot quicker than I ever expected, so I'm going to take her to those obedience classes nearby (14 week course) instead. I cant wait

I love that pic of Turbo- I'll post a proper one of mum's pup soon (Zorro- I bet she'll wish she chose a different name now the new movie is out!)

cactus

sas,

I only followed the behavoural therapist's advice for a few days because it was setting us back in our progress.

I've gone back to doing what I was doing those first few days and she has come good again, and Kiki is happier. They both sleep together now, and spend a lot of time together during the day and there are no problems. They aren't best of friends, and Zara still lives in hope of Kiki playing with her, but maybe one day.....

cactus

There were no K9 recommended trainers near me, but the link Gamby posted (Delta Society) had one for a suburb near me. I'm posting off the application and cheque today. Hopefully we can start in January.

A guy down at the dog park who has a pair of great danes as well as another large crossbreed has offered to be at the park with his two male dogs when I take Zara. He will help control her if I need him to, and his dogs are both big enuff and tuff enuff to handle her, and sensible enough to come when called, so he figures that will help her as well. His female dane is only 8 months old and he said she is still too silly (and clumsy!) so he would leave her at home.

Of course we'd have to do it at an unpopular (read: hot) time of day so there would be no risk to anyone else's dogs. I'm probably being completely paranoid, but I'd rather err on the side of caution. I have also bought another halti- more the classic style since I dont really know how to use the other one yet.

cactus

I'm sorry I can't help with your question Jen- I am only learning myself :p

I would suggest cross posting to the general discussion forum though, because a great many people rarely venture in here, and the other forum gets more traffic. I'm sure you'll attract some good advice in both places, but it will take a while longer waiting here

all the best,

cactus

There must be an independant trainer in cactus's area.

ok edited to add a link

k9 events trainers private reward based

Thanks Erny, but unfortunately none of those trainers are within an hour of me

cactus

There are many people who have used them here including myself.  They have the same 2 week training program for every dog they do a session with.

The word 'dominance' is way over used and their program is to knock out the so-called dominance.

So I guess you're doing the following or similar program that they always use:

1) No walks for 2 weeks

2) Teathering dog whilst it's inside

3) No sleeping in the bedroom and not on the furniture

4) Only one pat to the top of the head to show you are dominant during backyard training

5) You must eat before the dog and during this time the dog must be able to see its food

6) Only pats when the dog does something to deserve it and only to the head

7) Train the dog to heel by walking around in circles in your backyard and suddenly stopping and giving a check to the collar.

I use the term 'emotionaly harsh' methods of training for the owner with Dog Tech.

yup. plus i have to treat kiki the same way and she doesn't understand why i have been so *cold* with her. tonight i have sat between them on the floor giving them untold unearned pats and scratches ;)

i do have zara tethered, because she has never been indoors before and has trouble settling with kiki there to pester. She is perfectly contented to be tethered to the sofa, as its prime real estate and she is beside kiki and both in the same kind of bed. I wish I could take her to the park to burn off some energy, but I cant physically control her- thats why I wanted the halter, but the guy says she cant go out anyway.

I know I'm not supposed to giver her the attention I have tonight, but she has lacked it her whole life, and it calms her. I want her to feel like this is her home and we are her family- doing it his way she was really no better off than she was at her last home. I know I have to, and want to be the leader, but we need to bond as well- and we just weren't getting to know each other following those rigid rules. I was so upset last night, I couldn't stand it any longer.

With Steve at K9 Force I never felt guilty or bad with any of his methods, his methods work and work fast because he actually knows about dogs unlike a money hungry franchise.

Yeah, they're not cheap, but I was happy to pay it to get quality advice. I kept thinking, it cant be right if it feels this bad, but then I'd think well what would I know about training difficult dogs? He's the professional afterall. Except that he doesn't have any actual credentials

cactus

But with control & leadership you dont have the extinction burst, so the program flows smoothly.

That is interesting, because (apart from the bonding task which I'm not doing anyway) the leadership walk is the only actual TRAINING I'm being told to do. He said once I have de-ranked both dogs and established that I'm the leader it will all fall into place...

Apart from that 5 min task we do twice a day I just have to give no free pats, pat only on top of the body (preferably a stroke back across the head), make them wait at least 15 mins for their food to be set down (and alternate the feeding order)and ignore them for 10 mins when I come home. Plus keep them separated. Thats it.

I asked him if it was ok that I continue to teach come sit stay drop etc and he said sure, so long as I dont use verbal commands during the leadership walk. He said verbal commands are requests and dont make the dog *think* about what they are supposed to do.

I don't need a 2 week miracle, I just need to feel that the dog's needs have not been misread, and that the tasks I do will achieve their purpose. I have a lot of patience and am prepared to put in a lot of time and effort to get the dog I want and believe she can be

Do you run any programs on the Gold Coast?

cactus

If you persist on & what is going on is the dog is getting worse, your making a mistake..

Its hard to know what to do- you pay a professional for their advice, then dont want to take it? I am changing it slightly (and he'll probably tell me in two weeks thats why I'm still having to work on her) ;) I no longer do the bonding ritual- holding the treat so she will come then moving it in a circle up over her head so she will sit and then putting the treat in her mouth as soon as she sits (no verbal comands). It was making her lunge, jump and bite.

I am surprised that a dog behaviourist would tell you to pat the dog on the head, dogs don't like head pats.

The idea of the single stroke over the head is that it replicated what the mother would have done, and it shows that you are dominant, but can be trusted. She has been hit and yelled at in her last home, and she even got an accidental clock on the side of the head from me one day when I had treats in my closed hand and she jumped up and lunged toward my face. I reflexively leaned back and swung my arm out to protect myself and I think I got her in the side of the head with my wrist The experience made us both a little wary of each other I think.

I know she has dominance issues, thats why I called him in, but I cant help feeling I havent been given an assessment of MY dogs in OUR environment. The reason I doubt this is that the instructions he has given me, for a big dog who has been neglected in the backyard for 3 years, then flown interstate to live with a new family and another dog, put on a new diet, cant be taken out for much needed exercise etc

is the SAME identical advice given to my mother who has just bought a great dane pup

and is the SAME identical advice given to her friend who has two barking sausage dogs that have been spoilt rotten.

In no way has it been tailored to suit the different animals or circumstances. Maybe this is correct. I dont know, I'm not a trainer and this is my first experience needing one.

getting worse before it gets better means the method is reliant on the dog recieving no reward for its actions & getting frustrated, often resulting in an extinction burst, this can be avoided with a more thorough program

I just dont know whether to persist and give it a chance to work, or abandon it so early on to avoid making things worse and try something else. A miracle is supposed to happen in this two weeks. So long as I STICK to the plan, I am supposed to have an obedient dog that gets along with my current dog and will be safe to introduce to my cats. I wish I could speak to someone for whom this miracle occurred so I could get some reassurance that I'm not just being a fool to go along with it.

Traing dogs is like raising kids, no matter what you do you still worry you're going to screw them up....

cactus

Have you heard of the Delta Society? You can find them if you go to the Delta site and search for a Delta trainer at http://www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au/

I belong to a club that has mainly Delta Instructors and I have found them very knowledgable.

I hadn't heard of them Gamby. What is the difference between an animal behaviourist and a veterinary behaviourist? My guy calls himself a behavioural therapist. But what the Dogtech website says about no harsh methods isnt *my* view of *not harsh*. Sure you use a flat collar, but whats the difference if you're still using it to strangle your dog? :p

If I were Zara I'd bite me too.

Rusky, the initial training was just mine- what I made up and described in other posts.

The current training is what I've been told to do for the next two weeks, as advised by the behavioural therapist who came and met the dogs. He did say it would get worse before it gets better. Maybe thats whats happening. It just feels awful and none of us is happy. I guess the only way to find out is to continue for the duration and see if it falls into place.

It was nice to see them happy tonight when my mum came over- she is allowed to be affectionate with them and they responded really positively to that. I'm not allowed to. Only pats on top of the head *if* they do something to earn it. And of course corrections if Zara doesn't. I feel like a hag.

Which behaviourist did you have come out?

Dogtech

Training is going REALLY well. not.

The first 4 days I made great progress- she had stopped lunging and jumping, and was returning to her bed, coming, sitting dropping and staying.

After a bit over two days of *real* training, she is lunging, jumping, ignoring me, shying away from me and biting me. And my other dog doesn't know what the hell *she* has done wrong to be treated so coldly all of a sudden :p

Cactus, I believe the distinction they are trying to make is between punishment as perceived by the dog as coming from the handler and that which occurs without being associated with the handler.

EG K9 mentioned hiding water balloons in washing, providing a punisher when the dog trys to pull the washing off the line.  Very diferent from the dogs perspective from receiving a verbal (NO) or physical (leash correction) punisher from the handler for the same behaviour.

Thanks Haven, I get it now :p

I cannot ever condone punishing a dog - providing undesirable consequences, yes, punishment, no.

You guys have lost me. A punishment is a stimulus that reduces the likelihood of a particular behaviour. What is an undesirable consequence used for if not to reduce the likelihood of a particular behavior?

Aren'tyou just exchanging one word for another, or do you mean someone acting out of temper rather than attempting to eliminate a behaviour? I'm confused

Sounds like you're doing a great job with pooch.

Thankyou sas. I'm trying my best- I am very new to all this (like REALLY new!) but I figure if I stay strong, and be patient, and follow good advice I will get there eventually. I guess this is a project to keep my mind busy while I am off work (which sucks big time- not work I love my job- It sucks not being able to be there)I dont want it to jeapardise my recovery though- its been slow enough as it is

have you tried the NILIF methods? 

Yeah, Im using that, but have to toughen up. During the leadership exercise I kept giving her two strokes on the head. The trainer said Oh! She just got a free pat. No free pats! (or words to that effect)

Turbo now heels with just one word, when I got him, he would pull you down the road and if you saw another dog, gawd it was all on! 

Well since you have all the experience and I all the problems, you wanna swap dogs?????

cactus

i think obedience and training is at the top of the list these things are only a tool used  for training not a long term soloution  but they  do IMO help

I wish the trainer thought that Lablover- I would be a lot better off if I was allowed to use it while we train her, but he said NO! He will get her used to it and show me how to use it properly in two weeks time when we are on top of her dominance and taking her for a walk for the first time. He said if I take her for a walk before the two weeks is finished, it will reawaken her dominance and cause her prey drive to kick in because they see a walk with their owner as setting out on a hunt? I dunno- it must be because they are hounds and she is just so damned head strong!

Thank goodness I can still take my Kiki out

cactus

Black Dog Ifin-8 brilliant. It is a different version of the figure eight and much more adaptable.

That's the one I got, but did your dog pull it off if the leash wasnt on?

I don't think a halti would suit your dog at all at this present time. Is there any chance of you having a Vet come to you? That swounds like it would be a much better option for you.

No, but the trainer told me to give him a ring if I needed him to go with me I just couldn't stress enough how careful I have to be with my back- its not your usual 'bad back' and I cannot risk being jerked by a pushy dog. I cant even do the leadership training by myself- I have to have my teenage son walk with me taking most of the force of the dogs pulling. The bit where you have to tug up while touching the rear was especially painful, because you are applying force, while bending and twisting. My physio would FREAK! Two weeks of this....

I wish you luck in finding something to help you get control of the dog. It sounds like you have an uphill battle on your hands.

Thankyou Gamby!!

Cactus

worked out the breed silly me didn't realise RR was the breed thought it was a rescue group name 

Hehe, no worries Rusky

The black dog now make a head halter in such a way as many of us were already adapting the halti brand before they went to supermarkets.

I think thats the one I got this morning- The trainer guy doesn't like the way it fits up close around the underside of her face. I dont like the way she can get it off if there is any slack on the leash. Or the way it was twice the price of a halti

Anyway, it may become obsolete before its even used!

cactus